How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096850#Comment_119096850

READ the GFA.

I accept that the MAJORITY wish to remain in the UK. That is all the GFA asks you to do.

It does not (it is counter intuitive if you aspire to a UI) ask that you accept that NI is a part of the UK. It is only a part of the UK until such time as a majority want a UI.

Do you accept that? Yes or No?

BTW, I said it 'went' up in flames around them at the start of the conflict/war.

Brucie Bonus

Maybe unionism would integrate better in its own jurisdiction if it afforded other groups the same rights it enjoys.

Great to see such a turnout for the Irish language in Belfast.

Maybe if the unionists accepted equality and democracy they'd fare better integrating into a UI?

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096158#Comment_119096158

British Army report seems to have shown a lot of respect for the PIRA:

"PIRA developed into what will probably be seen as one of the most effective terrorist organisations in history. Professional, dedicated, highly skilled and resilient, it conducted a sustained and lethal campaign in Northern Ireland, mainland United Kingdom and on the continent of Europe," the document states.

British Army report on loyalists (and other republican paramilitaries).

Loyalist paramilitaries "presented themselves as the protectors of the Protestant community but in practice were often little more than a collection of gangsters, a description which could also apply to a number of republican terrorists".

Also interesting,

The review describes internment, which the army opposed, as a "major mistake".

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/british-army-paper-illustrates-respect-for-ira-1.948685

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096896#Comment_119096896

The only ones blocking rights and normalisation are Unionists. Now trying to get their government to break international law over an abstract feeling of dispossession.

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096658#Comment_119096658

Internment was a major reason the PIRA thrived. It was a major mistake by British Government. It was not supported at the time by the British Army. But Unionists pushed the British Government into it.

FraserburghFreddie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096861#Comment_119096861

You can posture and showboat all you like.The GFA isn't being brought into question except to point out to delusional extremist republicans that according to the GFA Ireland recognises NI is part of the UK and renounces any claims on it.

Nobody is disputing how things may potentially play out if its deemed a UI referendum is required.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096980#Comment_119096980

Ireland recognises the majority wish to remain in the UK. As you haven't seemed to have read it, here is the clause.

The two Governments:

(i) recognise the legitimacy of whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the people of Northern Ireland with regard to its status, whether they prefer to continue to support the Union with Great Britain or a sovereign united Ireland; 

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096814#Comment_119096814

That’s a pathetic response. I could say exactly the same every time francie raises what he sees as atrocities, but I have a tad more respect

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096841#Comment_119096841

I didn’t think anyone would be so daft as to disagree with this. If you want to tell us that you doubt it’s the case then I will go do the research and post you evidence. If you are just playing a game and you know right well that the British government jailed more loyalists than the Irish did ira then I’ll not bother. Up to you

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096185#Comment_119096185

You all ducked that question again. Your claims of widespread collusion have no credibility if you can’t provide evidence

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096896#Comment_119096896

So suddenly it’s great to see street protest. We’ve been told for months that it was bad that people were on the streets to protest against the protocol but now is ‘great’ because it’s Irish language 😂

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096961#Comment_119096961

I’m not sure you can call it a mistake. 50 years later the union is secure. 50 years later the ira are facilitating British rule on the island

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096931#Comment_119096931

Try to bring yourself into the real world.

Junkyard Tom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099293#Comment_119099293

The north's status as a contested region is now very much solidified as demonstrated by its becoming an internationalised issue. Nobody dares suggest 'British rule' is exercised at the British border in Ireland except for the nutter element of unionism personified by Jim Allister. I'm glad you think you're winning though.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096980#Comment_119096980

The belligerent exclusionary nationalists don't like this facet of the GFA when it is explained to them.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099959#Comment_119099959

Crimea and Donbas region are contested too. Thankfully, unlike the Russians, we aren't trying to take them back with violence.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119094836#Comment_119094836

All victims of atrocities during the troubles should be remembered, irrespective of what group murdered them. I doubt anyone is arguing that. Patitioning this country is what caused all those killings, albeit indirectly. The Conservative Party used partition as a bribe for unionist votes in Westminster 100 years ago and it has lead to 100 years of oppression, rancour, strife and killings. And again Unionism is allowing itself be bought and sold by the Conservative party so that they can achieve their goals in Westminster. An all island government without Conservative party meddling would be in the best interests of everyone on this island. There can be an Ireland of 32 counties where one can be accepted with a British identity and where those of a British identity can participate in democracy. Time to get on the bus because it's coming. Better to be on the bus and have a say than being under the bus where the Conservatives have cast NI unionists for the past 100 years.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096782#Comment_119096782

The sectarianism of the IRA has been acknowledged many times by many Irish institutions. It's routinely condemned. The IRA murdered members of the Gardai too. The IRA aren't exactly liked in this jurisdiction. People like John Hume tend to be held in much higher esteem for pursuing a peaceful civil protest path and diplomacy. The political wing of the IRA, SF, eventually followed suit. We ratified the GFA and the IRA decommissioned. Thankfully.

Many people here don't agree with the Angelus being played by the national broadcaster either, one can still aspire to an UI whilst longing for state secularisation. I would be one of those people.

We acknowledged the existence of NI by ratifying the GFA. No problems there.

The IRFU have an inclusive flag for Rugby, so do hockey Ireland, so do the golf union. The only sport that uses the Tricolour is football because each jurisdiction has its own team. There is an inclusive anthem for the rugby team, devised exactly for the purpose of respect to those of a British identity. Hell the rugby team used to stand for GSTQ years ago when there were home games in Ravenhill.

Not sure what your angle is on this forum other than to shut down any discussion of how Unionists could be integrated or persuaded into a United Ireland. That's the purpose of the forum, for unionists to share ideas and concerns for integration into a UI if it were to happen. You're not even entertaining any discussion on the idea.

You've asked others to acknowledge the existence of NI. We have done so via the GFA. Time for you to practice what you preach. The GFA also legislated for a vote on an UI. That vote will happen at some stage. Time to engage in the discussion around such a vote.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099248#Comment_119099248

Bizarre. I provided you with several links. There is also the fact it was so widespread your policeforce had to be renamed and restructured.

And there are still inquiries ongoing into it and calls for more.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099213#Comment_119099213

The Irish state has been imprisoning IRA members since the 20's I doubt it is 'multiples'...go on and show us.

Junkyard Tom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100051#Comment_119100051

yawn

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099266#Comment_119099266

Yes. Both should be protested.

Both were arrived at democratically and both are denied by unionists who won't accept the will of the people. Especially considering they wanted Brexit, so brought on the Protocol themselves.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100051#Comment_119100051

You know the British would be Russia in this analogy?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100370#Comment_119100370

Eh no, Russia are like yourself and Francie in 1969 wanting to invade the North.

You know, pretend sending in a peacekeeping force disguised as an invasion against the will of the people being invaded.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100399#Comment_119100399

You've gone full Ruth Dudley-Edwards.

Never go full Ruth Dudley-Edwards.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100399#Comment_119100399

The Ukraine is a country. Russia, in your own analogy, wants to take the portion of it they believe has ties to Russia. Putin literally said there are Russian people in the Donbass region of Ukraine, he wants to liberate. You have your analogy arseways. The BA is in the North ffs.

You just pulling negative Irish scenarios out of the air is just you labouring to demean the Irish who don't miss the days when only our betters had the vote.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099213#Comment_119099213

Don't get this post. Most of the IRA were from the the north and carried out activities in the north or Britain so would be up to the UK to prosecute them.

In reality the troubles was a UK civil war. As you know and are happy with, Dublin has no jurisdiction in the North so it would mostly be up to belfast or London to prosecute them.

Or to put it in Downcow Language. The IRA are part of your country not mine. Own the "Irish republican army" in the same way your happy to own the "irish football association"

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100399#Comment_119100399

Remarkable. I knew you were something but I didn't quite realise to what extent.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100210#Comment_119100210

Thank you. IMHO that post lifted the level of debate. I disagree with significant elements of it but I think you are posting with integrity, if factually incorrect on some matters and understandably prejudiced on others. But that is what this forum should be about - learning from each other. Thank you for acknowledging the sectarianism of the IRA. that’s appreciated by me

let’s take your rugby stuff first. You are correct that IRFU used to play gstq and ss time about, that is until the catholic members of the team had a secret meeting, pretending they were praying for the sick pope, and emerged with a diktat to the IRFU that they would never play gstq or play in NI again - the IRFU caved.

As for not using the Irish tricolour - here it is being used officially on the world stage in 2015. This really hurt unionist northern rugby fans that I know (another agreement broken for jingoistic nationalism)

as for Ui vote. Absolutely it is allowed for in the gfa, but you are simply wrong when you say ‘it will happen sometime’. The gfa may be the very thing that ensures a Ui vote never happens. It’s very clear in the gfa that it won’t happen if no such conditions exist.

back to the Irish rugby team. It’s a great example of what unionists have to fear from a United ireland. Agreements and promises were made, that you elude to, to ensure an inclusive all island team reflecting both major traditions. Republicans, cheered on, or ignored, by moderate nationalists, acquiesced. They removed all official representations of unionist identity which then became the accepted culture among the fans for attendance at matches eg Irish tricolour is acceptable and union flag or 6 counties flags are not. Can you not see our fears when we look at these promises broken and inclusiveness swept aside for nationalism by sectarianism?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100240#Comment_119100240

Links are just deflection. Give a few titbits of evidence from eg loughinisland?