How can we integrate Unionism into a possible United Ireland?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100364#Comment_119100364

Not sure what you mean here?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100532#Comment_119100532

This is exactly the times I struggle to work out whether the poster is being disingenuous or simply naive.

over 500 of our people were murdered by cross border attacks. The Ira training grounds were mainly in roi. The Ira safe houses were mainly in roi. The munitions were imported exclusively in roi. I could go on.

and yet your government and forces, to all intents and purposes, stood back and let them get on with it.

just take a look at the devastation of my community all along the border

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099313#Comment_119099313

And you have just demonstrated how far from the real world you are. Rightly one wrongly the world has moved on and no one is interested in you digging up the past beyond those you try to troll. This is happening and here is nothing you nor the DUP can do to stop it beyond perhaps slowing it down for a period, that is your reality.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100659#Comment_119100659

What?

So the inquiry into the RUC for example, that resulted in it being restructured and renamed in shame didn't find 'evidence' of collusion? We've really jumped the shark now.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100695#Comment_119100695

I would have thought that, you, more than most, would be able to spot a disingenuous poster a mile off. You have literally never changed your tune in all the time you've posted on this subject. Yet you shout foul and ask for compromise constantly. Catch yourself on.

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100735#Comment_119100735

You see, it doesn't count when it's the British State that are murdering their own citizens. They're national security concerns.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100655#Comment_119100655

Out of interest, what were the factual inaccuracies in my post? Don't think it was prejudiced either, are you conflating a difference of opinion with prejudice against unionism?

I was under the impression that GSTF wasn't played anymore because of the invention of Irelands Call? Which was invented due to the eternal shame of the Rugby team standing to the The Rose of Tralee during the 1987 WC. Now that was a bad decision by the IRFU that all communities would have had the same opinion on. Singing TROT was beyond mortifying! I'm also guessing that international games are not played in Belfast anymore because the Aviva and prior to the Landsdowne Road were headquarters. Guessing the move to professionalism cemented that as the home of Irish rugby. There was a recent test game played in Ravenhill, guessing it was Irelands Call only that day. And rightly so.

It's a pity that the Tricolour has become a symbol of such rancour for some unionists. It was designed with the ideal of uniting the two traditions on this island. I understand why it is hated by some unionists, to an extent, but the level of offence over it's use to my mind can be OTT. Then again, that is one of the things up for debate in the event of a border poll. What would the flag be in the event of a United Ireland. I'd be sorry to see the Tricolour go but I wouldn't let it get in the was of progression. Unfortunately due to the Troubles up North there is a significant minority that associate it with paramilitaries. I would have a lot of time for Trevor Ringland when it comes to the topic of all island integration on rugby. He is a very decent man doing the right things to help communities understand and respect each other. He is a Protestant Unionist also who's father was in the RUC. Could be excused for having a chip on his shoulder given his teammates were bombed by the IRA but he has chosen the right path and it would be great to see more to do so. I think you're wasting your time on the rugby angle, it's one of the success stories for all island integration. I can't see what unionists have to fear in the Irish rugby team, bit of a red herring by you there.

One of the oversights in the GFA is that it left the conditions for a border poll very vague. Probably purposely so. Honestly, I'm of the opinion that if Brexit never happened there would be little genuine discourse on a border poll. Now I'm of the opinion that there will be one in the next 10-15 years. Whether it would result in a UI or not is a different story. Brexit has been an unholy mess from day 1. Even the Tories didn't want it to happen, it was a ploy to quell the Labour party who were making gains under Corbyn, himself a Eurosceptic. A narrow loss in the Brexit referendum was the real goal for the Tories. It has backfired and has now fractured Anglo Irish relations. The GFA was always predicated on the UK and Ireland being both in the EU. It's with great sadness that the UK left, and it's a pity to see years of progress in UK Ireland relationships go sour as a result. But the UK chose that path and unfortunately NI is collateral damage. That is why there will be a border poll in my opinion, and maybe why Scotland will chose to leave the union too, given another chance. Much of their reluctance to leave last time was uncertainty over EU status. If the EU were to offer a reapplication for Scotland I think they'd vote to leave by a slim majority.

The DUP will just do anything to distance themselves from anything remotely Irish, including the current stunt. That comes at a big cost for those who keep voting for them. It's a strange way to be in my eyes. Gladly more and more are seeing the light and voting Allinace. But unfortunately there's still a sizeable chunk stuck 100 years in the past and continuing to vote DUP. The worst part is the current posturing from the Tories over the NI protocol is just to create a distraction from Party gate. Nothing more.

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099293#Comment_119099293

The point is that if unionism hadn't forced British Government into introducing internment, the PIRA would not have had the many recruits and none of these deaths would have occurred. If unionism had treated catholics anyway decently, the PIRA would not have thrived and the union would have been secured without the loss of all those lives.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100735#Comment_119100735

I have no intention in trawling through endless links to find evidence to support your assertions. The request is simple. Post a few tiny titbits of actual evidence, let’s stick with loughinisland as it’s close to me and I’ll be able to point you in the right direction.

time to put up or shut up.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101046#Comment_119101046

The factually incorrect bit was saying that there WOULD be a border poll. That’s by no means a given.

if you came around to accepting my history of why irfu don’t play in Belfast would it change you thinking a little on the ‘success’ of irfu? So it was a meeting on a train. The whole team were on board but a secret meeting of the catholic team members only was arranged. They told the Protestant players afterwards that they had been having a prayer meeting as the pope was sick. The Protestant players said they would have liked to join them to pray for the pope. The catholic players then put an ultimatum to the irfu that they would not play in next game if they did not get a promise that no matches would be held ever again in Belfast and gstq would never be played. This was secretly agreed and other public excuses were generated. I suppose that was a ‘success’ of sorts

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101222#Comment_119101222

My goodness. I didn’t know that. So all the killing was about to stop and the Ira were about to accept the union, if there had been no interment. Pity they didn’t say. I’m sure it could have been arranged.

the stuff you learn on this forum is quite astounding.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101644#Comment_119101644

There's a provision for a border poll in the GFA. It may or may not happen. You seem to be convinced that it won't happen. Which by your own logic is also factually incorrect.

I've never heard the story of catholic players and the praying for the pope. A cursory Google search shows nothing on it either. Not saying it didn't happen but it doesn't seem to be well known. There have been plenty of Ulster players of a British identity who have played for Ireland since and I've never heard of any sectarian issues. In fact Andrew Trimble has appeared on TV to get across the message that one can feel Irish when wearing the green jersey and have a British identity and be comfortable with both. He was lauded for expressing such an opinion, and was a fine player. Would you care to respond to any of my points with regards to the rugby and offer any rebuttal?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101572#Comment_119101572

That's not what this thread is for. A 'court case' presided over by the honourary downcow.

If you want to labour under the delusion the RUC was not gotten rid of and renamed in shame because of systemic collusion or the other inquiries didn't find the same about other branches of the British state, you go right ahead.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101725#Comment_119101725

It absolutely galls the belligerent Unionist that an all-Ireland body can thrive, they will do everything in their power to bring it down and demean it. That is also the motivation behind backing Brexit and the welching on what was agreed by the British in the WA. They want to break the GFA because of it's all-Ireland aspect.

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101654#Comment_119101654

Internment was introduced in August 1971 where most of the civilian casulaties were catholics. The PIRA didn't have a huge amount of support at that stage. Remember, they were referred to as ''I Ran Away'' back then.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100695#Comment_119100695

Do you have any reference to back up the claim about most IRA attacks were planned in the ROI. One thing we do know is that most of the IRA were from the North. Own them as part of "your" country.

You said before that GAA grounds in the north were used for the purpose of IRA attacks. You seem to change your tune about the facts of the IRA to suit what ever sectarian narrative you are making.

"GAA in the north is sectarian as their grounds were used by the IRA"

"The IRA predominantly were run from the ROI so Dublin was responsible for their prosecution"

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101939#Comment_119101939

All sports in Ireland bar association football are run very successfully on an all Ireland basis without widespread sectarianism. Even in the GAA there are now green shoots of cross community participation with the very successful setup of the East Belfast GAA club. Which has been widely welcomed in GAA circles. Yes, there will always be knuckledraggers but they exists in all arenas of life.

I'm struggling to understands Downcow's point on how Irish rugby is an example of catholic sectarianism and shows that an UI is unattainable. Also, I'm awaiting their response on other topics discussed.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100683#Comment_119100683

People protesting the DUP stalling the democratically promised language act. People should also protest the DUP stalling NI from functioning in times of high inflation because they don't like the bed they made themselves with brexit.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101725#Comment_119101725

I will get you a link for the prayer meeting stuff. If I forget remind me.

I never implied I was convinced a border poll would never happen. Tbh I think it’s 50/50 if there will ever be a poll.

tbh with you the Irish rugby is fairly typical. Moo origins have to play the game, especially when they know to be a ‘troublemaker’ will not increase their chances of being picked to play or afterwards benefiting from pr / tv work.

I could point you to lots of catholic ni players from the past who will tell you everything was great and they were so proud pulling on the green jersey eg Gerry Armstrong who played with ‘would you go a chicken supper Bobby sands’ ringing in his ears. I am not naive enough to take his recommendation as evidence that all was fine.

do you at least understand that playing the ss, having the Irish president view the team and waving the tricolour feels to me how I would imagine you would feel if they played gstq, were viewed by Prince Charles and waved the union flag. Can you have some empathy when I turn it around? The team represents two countries and those are the symbols attached to the northern country.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119103544#Comment_119103544

Yes, that is correct. Soccer is the only game where the sectarian element exists on both sides. Had the associations united it would likely not have developed in the same vein. Interested to see the prayer meeting stuff, not because I don't trust that it happened but I'd like to learn more on the context. All my research on cross border Irish rugby to date has shown, for the most part, for it to have been amicable. Plenty have also donned the B&I Lions jersey over the years from both traditions without much fuss. If you we're to pick an example of sectarianism in sport on this island, rugby would have been one of the last examples to choose.

It wouldn't be Prince Charles anyway that would be present at Irish rugby games, is he not the Prince of Wales? Princess Anne is the patron of Scottish rugby and she attends their matches where Flower of Scotland is sung. Prince William seems to represent the Royal family at England games where GSTQ is played. What's the point here? Ireland isn't in the United Kingdom so why would UK monarchs be present, only a part of the island that is represented by the rugby is in the UK? Shouldn't some representative from NI, maybe the first minister, attend with the Irish president. That way both jurisdictions would be represented. I'd have no beef with that. Similarly on the anthem thing, we have Ireland's call for this very purpose.

The rugby thing is getting us way off topic anyway. What about the proposition of a United Ireland where people of a British tradition are treated as equal in a secular republic repulses you so much? I'm genuinely interested in finding out.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101934#Comment_119101934

So you decided to shut up rather than put up

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119102058#Comment_119102058

Are you making up quotes for me now? I have no memory of either quote

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119103215#Comment_119103215

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/whatever-you-say-say-nothing-old-rules-still-apply-in-tyrone-1.4812191

Doesn't look like it when you read stuff like this going on in a local GAA club.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119103600#Comment_119103600

You are answering the question eloquently yourself.

if the irfu are an example of what we could expect in a Ui then it’s certainly not something I could be part of.

you suggest the leaders of ni and roi viewing the teams together. What a great idea. And each being lead out by the flag of the part of the island they represent and having the anthem of the part of the island they represent played.

why do you think this great idea of yours doesn’t happen ??

do you think no one has thought of it before you?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119103654#Comment_119103654

You made the claim and failed to back it up when asked.

I asked to see the data, because the Dublin government have been imprisoning the IRA since the 20's so I very much doubt your 'multitudes' claim.

If I am wrong I am wrong, no probs.

Junkyard Tom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119103544#Comment_119103544

The team represents two countries and those are the symbols attached to the northern country.

No the team does not represent 'two countries'. The north is not a country, you've been told this numerous times but ignore it in favour of creating a fantasy country where only unionists live, then bemoan that this imagined 'unionist country' doesn't get equal representation as regards symbols and anthems. You don't have a flag or an anthem because you don't have a country - you have part of our country.

And each being lead out by the flag of the part of the island they represent and having the anthem of the part of the island they represent played.

What flag? What anthem? Leaving aside the seizure oo the northeastern part of our country by threat of mass-murder, Unionism is a minority in the north and those who self-identify as British are fewer than 30%.

Jump_In_Jack

How will Unionists integrate themselves into a United Ireland?

Will many of them stick around?

Across all the Unionist parties they have about 37 seats out of 90.

Adding the 160 TD’s with 90 MLA’s, there would be 250 elected members of the new Irish assembly.

So Unionism would have 37 out of 250, they would fade into insignificance, as there won’t be a border poll to reverse a UI, it’ll be a one-way transition.

It would be interesting to see how government would form in a UI, maybe we’d finally get a centre left government.

Grassey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119104118#Comment_119104118

Wouldn't it be less - if the Dail is 1 seat per 29.7K population, then the 6 counties would contribute about 63 additional seats, so proportioanity 20 of 220ish.. < 10%

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119103690#Comment_119103690

See the part of my post that references a small minority of knuckledraggers in the GAA. Very few GAA members want anything to do with IRA violence in this day and age. Historically, yes there were strong links between the IRA and the GAA especially during war of independence times. Time has moved on though. Not sure what your post has to do with integrating those of a British tradition into a potential United Ireland? I've given the example of the East Belfast GAA team, care to comment on that. We're moving on, up to you if you want to stay in the past.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119103695#Comment_119103695

Is that not why the IRFU has its own flag? To represent all people on the island? If Michelle O'Neill being at the rugby games to represent the NI contingent is what it takes then so be it.

No back to the question, what beyond Michael D Higgins only being at Irish rugby games worries you about a potential UI?