Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263686#Comment_120263686

The sexism is unreal. 🥲

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263686#Comment_120263686

The cheek of you to accuse others of misogyny and you're here assuming the women swimmers are too crap to beat Lia Thomas.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263690#Comment_120263690

And in other sports like surfing, raw performance metrics like lap time aren’t how scoring is done it’s a matter of style etc. so it’s even harder to make a sexist statement like women are better surfers than men etc.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263692#Comment_120263692

Even though I agree with the complications that arise from a trans woman having physical advantages in general, the fact someone would assume women are just so crap at sport that they wouldn't stand a chance at beating a trans woman is absolutely hilarious.

Imagine such little interest in womens swimming that you've never heard of Katie Ledecky. It's mind blowing stuff.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263689#Comment_120263689

You said you couldn't care less that sports are segregated by sex, even though the reason for this is a very straightforward one - those with male biology have a significant physical advantage over those with female biology. End of. Nothing to do with hatred, prejudice, pseudoscience or ignorance (so the comparison with racial segregation is wholly inappropriate). Why don't you care less? Do you think therefore that all sports should be mixed sex? Don't you think it's unfair when that means male bodied adults have an advantage that helps them win when competing against women? Or that male bodied adults could injure women in contact sports?

Faugheen

Hi @[Deleted User], I actually just remembered that multiple women actually beat Lia Thomas last season.

I'll take the NCAA Championships alone. She won the 500 yd, in a time that was 30s off the all-time best.

She reached the final of the 200 yd, where she finished 4th out of 8 - which means three women beat her

She also reached the final of the 100 yd, where she finished 8th out of 8 (that means she finished in last place, just in case you need help on that one too).

You want to hold your hands up and admit that you just assumed women's swimmers wouldn't be able to beat a trans woman in the pool?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263698#Comment_120263698

Arguing “it’s how we’ve always done it” is pointless though.

Also to generalize in the case of all sports - non contact races or water sports competitions aren’t contact rugby or football.

And it’s been highlighted how there’s not a sex advantage between two named competitors.

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263671#Comment_120263671

just making the point that she isn't going to be oblitering women's swimming

Nobody is saying she will

Nobody is making that argument

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263705#Comment_120263705

They had time to reply to you but no time to reply to me when they've actually been caught with their trousers around their ankles, I see.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263707#Comment_120263707

You haven't been keeping up with the thread have you?

If you had, you'd see that Fugue has been in here saying there couldn't possibly be a way for any woman to beat Lia Thomas.

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263705#Comment_120263705

>there’s not a sex advantage between two named competitors

If you put me in the ring with Katie Taylor, I reckon I'd be lucky to last past the first punch. Me being male is no advantage.

Wouldn't like to see her up against an average amateur male boxer though

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263711#Comment_120263711

But yet 11* women beat Lia Thomas at the NCAA Championships despite the clear advantages she would have.

One of these is actually a trans man, and is swimming with the men this year. Should he not be swimming with the women by your logic? How is it fair for him to be competiting with men when he wouldn't have had the same level of natural testosterone growing up?

thegame983

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263714#Comment_120263714

That's very confusing. Which one is a man?

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263715#Comment_120263715

Izsac Henig.

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263714#Comment_120263714

If a trans man wants to compete with/ against men, that's their choice, they have no unfair advantage over their competitors, (assuming whatever testosterone they might be taking is within guidelines, etc)

I don't think it'd be fair for a trans man who is taking testosterone to be competing against women

Faugheen, you are attempting to gas-light me. Twisting what I said into something I never said. I have been polite to you too - I haven't resorted to spite, ridicule or gas-lighting.

Now Overheal said he couldn't care less that sports are segregated based on sex (so couldn't care less that women would be at a physical disadvantage) and made a disingenuous and tasteless comparison with racial segregation. I think that that is very obnoxious towards women. Not caring about the obvious physical difference and unfairness just for an ideology. It absolutely is misogyny - not a toss given about fairness, and worse again, women's physical wellbeing.

If you genuinely felt it was OK, you would be questioning why there are sex segregated sports at all, and advocating for all sports to be mixed. But of course you know that this wouldn't be fair because the overwhelming likelihood is that women would lose out in competitions and be at risk of a more severe injury in e.g. a rugby or football tackle. And being trans doesn't magically change that. There are people who argue that trans isn't a real thing - I hugely disagree with them, there are people who say trans people are sexual predators and paedophiles - I hugely disagree with them. And I'm not a militant about women's toilets and changing rooms (Eddie Izzard shouldn't be using women's toilets though, because he is not a transwoman). Prisons - it depends on the crime.

But I'm a woman. And women and girls matter too. I obviously don't think women's swimming is crap or poor (that was only said by you putting words in my mouth) - I simply acknowledge the indisputable fact that those who are teenagers and adults with male biology are far more likely to have a physical advantage due to the difference in muscle mass, bone density, height. You named one person - one. I saw your other post too as I have two tabs open. I acknowledge that Thomas was beaten in other events. Does this one person wipe out the indisputable fact that male bodied teens and adults have a physical advantage over females? Absolutely not. In all contexts - not just sport - those who are male bodied are far, far more likely to have the upper hand when head to head with women. It doesn't change the facts of the article I linked to either. And I made sure not to pick a biased source. As a woman, it dismays me when this physical advantage is dismissed when it suits. Sports are segregated for a fair biological reason, and that's why they're not mixed.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263708#Comment_120263708

Give a person time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263710#Comment_120263710

No I didn't say that at all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263705#Comment_120263705

No no, nobody argued whatsoever that that's how we've always done it for no real reason. Physical advantage - that is the reason. In sports where physical advantage isn't a thing, grand. Make them mixed.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263722#Comment_120263722

I told you there was a very high chance that Lia Thomas can be beaten by women.

You said, ‘on what basis?’ and then said she wouldn’t be an exception to the physical advantages that come with being a trans woman.

You can twist it whatever way you want or accuse me of gaslighting, but your knowledge of women’s swimming was so crap that you just assumed that the physical advantages that Lia Thomas had did not lead to exceptional circumstances where a woman could possibly beat her.

You said what you said. If you believed that a woman could beat Lia Thomas then why did you waste my time asking for a basis and then telling me to name names?

Why did you ask me to go around in circles to look for names of women that could beat Lia Thomas for you to say ‘oh I never said that women couldn’t beat her.’

You know exactly what you were doing and you were caught with your trousers around your ankles.

What a great waste of time here. And then accusing me of gaslighting you after you sent me on a wild goose chase for absolutely f*ck all.

You were wrong. Own it and stop crying about being gaslit.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263711#Comment_120263711

Is that so

https://youtu.be/qdNKEha2SMQ

newhouse87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263726#Comment_120263726

Who is the female here though in main caption?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263724#Comment_120263724

Your hostility is groundless. I asked a question about the basis on which Thomas could be beaten. It wasn't a handwave, it was a genuine question. I asked how Thomas would be an exception too - again, genuine. I didn't state that Thomas isn't an exception at all. What's wrong with asking questions? Questions aren't statements of contradiction.

And you answered - happy days. I never said whatsoever that Thomas couldn't be beaten by a woman. I asked if it was the case. And it was.

But as you said, exceptions. Not the rule.

Sports are segregated by sex for this reason.

No crying - that's a strange interpretation. You were gas-lighting me by saying I said women's swimming is poor and crap when I said no such thing. Saying that competitors, with male biology shouldn't be able to compete in women's sports, is not the same thing at all.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263731#Comment_120263731

Except you made the assumption that Thomas couldn’t be beaten when you know so little about the sport that you don’t even know who Katie Ledecky is.

And Lia Thomas isn’t an exception (that was me using your words). She’s not just a super freak of a swimmer that you assumed she would be. Not all trans women just blow the competition away.

You really did just sh*t on a sport by making the assumption in the first place that Thomas couldn’t be beaten to push your narrative that the physical advantages are so vast. She can be beaten and she has been beaten.

Dont tell me I was gaslighting. You couldn’t even be bothered to look at women’s swimming because you were too busy looking for articles that suited your assumptions. I had to do that for you, only for you to say ‘I never said Lia Thomas couldn’t be beaten’.

Ask questions, but don’t make assumptions about a sport you know f*ck all about.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263705#Comment_120263705

I would argue that you should (as you have said before) be upfront about wanting to elimimate sports categories based on biological gender, most don't realise that, so it drags the discussion out.

@[Deleted User] that is the starting point for the discussion here.

I've said it before, sports can be fair or inclusive, but not both at the same time, most authorities are coming down on the side of fairness, my guess is that this will be how it all shakes out in the long term.

Hopefully there isn't too much damage done to female sport before that happens (especially as its becoming more and more viable for female athletes as a career in multiple sports from an earning potential perspective).

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263745#Comment_120263745

You're ratholing and cajoling a poster, for what reason I'm not sure. Would you be OK with Tom Daley or Michael Phelps transitioning when in their prime? Would that also be fair? Lia went from being a nobody at swimming to winning state championships with nothing more than a gender change, there was no extra training, effort or posting of much better times involved as would normally occur to go from the 500 spot to the number 1 spot.

Now, this is an awful position for an athlete who wants to compete, at the sport they love, to be in, but it's fairness of competition or inclusive of everyone to compete, not both at the same time, its not possible.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263752#Comment_120263752

That poster made the assumption that Lia Thomas couldn’t be beaten by a woman because of the physical advantages she has.

They didn’t look at the sport or any of their competitors. Just read generic articles about trans women.

Would you agree that that poster is not just wrong, but absolutely catastrophically wrong?

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263776#Comment_120263776

And here you continue the cajoling. I've given my answer on topic (which you didn't address), no one owes you an answer.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263802#Comment_120263802

It’s not cajoling. They said what they said.

Again, the fact you refuse to agree or disagree tells me everything I need to know.

eggy81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263645#Comment_120263645

It’s an irrelevant question because every woman she beats, whether it be in a local swim down in the leisure centre or an Olympic final is hard done by because they are not on a level physical playing field. It doesn’t matter whether she can’t beat the best women swimmers. Eventually someone will come along who can compete at the top level and win because they have superior physical attribute not gained just through training and dedication but also through the advantages that biology has given them.

Can see more merit in mixed competition in team type sports for trans people than in individual competition like swimming, running etc.