Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

mjsc1970

Ah Janey Mac my head hurts.

This thread about something that happened accross the water, was revived, a couple a days ago because of the LGFA progress on Transgender women in the female game. On a sport we all know about here.

And yet we go round in circles on a thread that was done to death for months. Again.

The thread title is a bit misleading as well considering the hoo ha was all about Lia Thomas.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266065#Comment_120266065

Lia Thomas who would be outclassed by Katie Ledeck it would seem.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266057#Comment_120266057

It can absolutely shatter someone's world if they are in 4th instead of 3rd. Or miss out on a scholarship, or in some sports, get a life changing injury.

I could compete in the Tour de France with an electric bike and I still wouldn't win. It doesn't mean I don't have an unfair advantage.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266076#Comment_120266076

We aren’t discussing electric bikes.

more goalpost shifting.

Lia Thomas didn’t get in the pool with floaters and a jet ski.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266089#Comment_120266089

No, she got in with male puberty.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266107#Comment_120266107

And out-swam by Katie Ledeck? Did she also have a male puberty?

El Gato De Negocios

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266089#Comment_120266089

But LT did get into the pool having being born male, gone through puberty as a male and lived and trained as a male for 20 odd years.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266123#Comment_120266123

And then gets beat by a woman with a uterus and a vagina and presumably all natural breasts and went through female puberty

so?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266123#Comment_120266123

Also can I just say this is a queer awl argument to make that almost sounds like it could be in support of adolescent transitioning. Complaining that Lia spent 20 years as a man - so she should have transitioned sooner and it would be okay? It’s not clear why it’s significant so whether she spent 20 or 100 years pre transition as an adult.

chopperbyrne

No, Lia Thomas got in the pool with male advantage, to race against females.

Laurel Hubbard qualified for the Olympics because of male advantage.

There are numerous examples from many sports of mediocre males, self identifying as female, and either winning or placing far, far higher than they would in the male category at all levels of sport, not just elite.

Young girls already drop out of sport in much higher numbers than boys, and anyone who has any involvement in childrens sports, particularly team field sports, will tell you that from about 11 years old, boys start to pull away from girls, and the gap only gets bigger, as male puberty kicks in.

How many more teenage girls will simply stop competing, if they're forced to compete against teenage boys.

There's an argument to be made if someone was on puberty blocks before male puberty, and HRT, but anyone who has gone through male puberty should not be allowed compete in female sport.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266152#Comment_120266152

So you’re saying transitions should happen before puberty?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266125#Comment_120266125

Yes, because Lia Thomas is not a particularly great swimmer. She did, however, achieve far above what she should have.

This is basically the equivalent of saying that because Flo-Jo could run faster than me that women are as quick as men.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266166#Comment_120266166

Well if she’s not particularly great no need to worry about it then right.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266183#Comment_120266183

She does not deserve to be ahead of female athletes. There is more to sport than simply being the single greatest in the world at it.

I suppose this is largely pointless given you don't even think the sex segregation should exist in the first place.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266292#Comment_120266292

She does not deserve to be ahead of female athletes.

She already ain't.

I suppose this is largely pointless given you don't even think the sex segregation should exist in the first place.

I see both sides of it but segregation is an evil and yet we design many of our sports to be bloody contact.

I don't see why for example there would be a contemporary need to have women excluded from, Formula 1 or billiards (they are not) but see why people would not want to see women pulled off in stretchers in a match of American Football, a sport designed to be particularly violent where conventional differences in size, weight, reach and power are immediately in contest.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266152#Comment_120266152

It's also coming at a time when:

• Getting young girls into and keeping on playing sports is increasingly difficult leading to health and fitness issues later in life.
• Female sports are getting higher sponsorship, wages and prize money than previously making what would have been a male only career (e.g. footballer) a viable career for a female.

Yet posters are advocating doing away with the female competitions entirely (effectively) making competitive sports 100% male instead (apart from the mixed team competitions).

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266341#Comment_120266341

That wouldn't be an outcome that would be appealing, no.

But I also don't see Lia Thomas driving tons of girls to quit swimming either, not unless isn't being browbeat into them by all the anti-trans media surrounding it.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266353#Comment_120266353

So this is really about the number of Lia Thomas who compete. What is the #LT that would cause a number of (potentially scholarship level) female swimmers to quit? If there is a number, do we then put up a barrier at that point? "you didn't declare early enough and #LT is exceeded, you can't compete".

The thing you may be missing (or maybe not) is that sports will legislate for the single case, that it won't impact 99.99999999% of matches/meets/competitions won't matter, they will still legislate for it, the #LT doesn't matter only that it's >0.

Remembering that there is already biological females missing out on podium finishes, qualifying for competitions/meets and scholarships.

But good we have moved on from the elimination of female competition, with that comes the acknowledgement that there is a male/female difference and then comes down to what the non-inclusive rules around that should be (testosterone levels/puberty blockers).

Backstreet Moyes

The fact that someone doesn't understand that Lia Thomas finishing 1st means the person in 4th is missing out on a medal is mind boggling.

Imagine the heartbreak of someone working so hard all their life losing out on a medal, a scholarship or a place in the Olympics because a man is allowed enter into female sport with unfair advantages.

In a time where women's sports is getting a lot more media coverage and the possibility of making a career financially has never been higher.

It is important the feelings of people doesn't turn away young women from sport.

eggy81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266115#Comment_120266115

What point are you trying to make? That because there are female athletes that can still out perform a given trans athlete in a sport that it’s fair that trans athletes can compete despite having all the pre discussed advantages?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266534#Comment_120266534

It obliterates the argument that they were advantages, yes.

I think people would be more celebratory of a woman beating a ✌️'man'✌️ at swimming.

BattleCorp

Yes, I'll say it. Other biological women can and have already beaten Lia Thomas. Doesn't change the fact that transwomen shouldn't be competing in female sports.

It's an undeniable fact that in general biological men have longer limb levers, denser bones, greater muscle mass and strength, and greater aerobic capacity. The fact that you have to spell this out to posters is actually amazing. These are all advantages that men have over women and that's why, in the interest of fairness, transwomen should not be allowed in female sports.

Will there be outliers where biological women beat transwomen, absolutely. But that doesn't change the fact that transwomen have an unfair advantage when competing against biological females.

eggy81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266553#Comment_120266553

But there are levels to it. What happens when a male swimmer who is already approaching elite level transitions to a female and goes on to compete against female athletes already having put up much faster times than the elite female athletes at the sport. It’s practically guaranteed that they go on to dominate the sport. Obviously no elite athlete might ever go that route but by allowing them compete there’s nothing to stop it happening. That’s the point I’m trying to make. Like if I transitioned and went to compete with elite female athletes I wouldn’t have a prayer of achieving anything because I’m not a talented athlete. It still wouldn’t be fair on female athletes though imo

Call me Al

A mediocre male swimmer.. transitioning to a woman and goes on to beat every woman bar the olympian.

Wow. I mean what's not to love about it. Its a miracle!

But yeah sure let the TRAs keep telling the public that the male biology in the pool had nothing to do with this complete transformation. 🙄

Thankfully USA Swimming actually looked at what was happening and ultimately looked at the science and based their policy around this and not Lia Thomas' feelings.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266777#Comment_120266777

Obviously no elite athlete might ever go that route but by allowing them compete there’s nothing to stop it happening

So, for paranoid reasons and not reality reasons, implement wide reaching ban?

eggy81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266789#Comment_120266789

No. For fairness reasons. Do you only think a rule should be implemented when we have multiple trans Olympic champions? Tbh it’s coming across like you don’t understand the spirit of competition in sports whatsoever in this conversation. Apologies if I’m wrong but that’s how it reads.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266780#Comment_120266780

11 women beat her last year in just the NCAA championships alone.

If you’re going make remarks about a topic at least know the facts instead of claiming ‘only the Olympian’ beat her.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266825#Comment_120266825

As with several of the above posts, I will decline to respond in kind to posts that don't stick to addressing the topic.

It's a question for the sporting leagues and their competitors, governments only role is ensuring the equal protection of the laws for all persons. Whether a league implements a rules change is different to campaigning for legal discrimination changes in law, which is what the vast majority of anti-trans media is involved with doing.

What would be the problem with the US having trans gold medalists, anyway, if the Olympic Committee permitted their competition?

eggy81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266852#Comment_120266852

There would be no problem as long as the people they beat were on a level playing field with them. You know that like. It’s pretty basic stuff.

Beasty

Jarhead_Tendler threadbanned