Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120871513#Comment_120871513

There's nothing in that link that backs up what you said.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120872648#Comment_120872648

Their bogus/hyperbolic claim refers to their claim that lesbians are facing 'extinction' as transgenderism becomes pervasive. That’s a direct claim from the organisation themselves, no hyperbole on my part. That’s why it’s perfectly reasonable to say they’re making bogus/hyperbolic claims that are completely divorced from reality.

In their submission to the Committee, they are pretending that gender doesn’t exist, and that in relation to diversity on boards, they wish to have the word ‘gender’ replaced by the word ‘sex’.

Personally, subjectively, I don’t have to care what their opinions are as a lobby group. It’s why I’m not the least bit concerned about these fringe outfits like LGB Alliance, Reduxx, Fair Play for Women, the rather ironically named Countess Didn’t Fight for This and a whole plethora of organisations in that space. I choose to ignore them rather than engage with them, as engaging with them would lend credence, validation and legitimacy to their beliefs, and because I’m a firm believer in the principle that if you roll around with pigs, you end up getting covered in shìt.

It is not I who believes in subjective ideas of gender, that’s LGB Alliance members who don’t believe they have a gender identity, nor do I believe that gender is of greater importance than material and objective realities of nature. Biology is an entirely different thing - as one of the life sciences it’s concern is with the study of life, it’s a methodology as opposed to being a philosophy, evolved from philosophy precisely because it was conceived as a framework for understanding life without all the philosophical baggage which preceded it.

That’s why it’s called one of the hard sciences as opposed to the soft sciences like sociology and politics. It’s also why as another poster pointed out earlier - most adults have a lesser understanding of biology than a child in primary school. That’s a matter of a lack of knowledge caused by poor education, as opposed to anyone’s lack of familiarity with their own anatomy, physiology or psychology.

Historically our education system was more concerned with teaching rudimentary concepts such as reading, writing and mathematics, as opposed to the minutiae of biology, physiology, anatomy or anthropology. It was not for girls, and it’s still not for non-believers, at least not in Ireland, or in most countries for that matter. Were it not for the Encyclopaedia Britannica I too might still be fumbling around in the dark unable to navigate a woman’s body, and my mother would never have walked in on me tugging the skeleton out of myself and refusing to look me in the eye for days, but that’s a whole other story. Suffice to say I was a rather curious child 😂

What invalidates the opinions of LGB Alliance and other organisations like them, and the opinions of individuals who hold fast to their subjective world views in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, IS the overwhelming evidence which contradicts their deeply rooted beliefs. To deprive themselves of knowledge is one thing, ignorance is indeed bliss, but to attempt not just to deprive other people of knowledge, and to go as far as to deny all knowledge of other people - that’s how theocracies and autocratic regimes replace democracy, which has its flaws, but it means everyone who has an opinion is entitled to express it, and their freedom to do so is upheld in law. It doesn’t follow from that principle that everyone in society is obligated to entertain their bullshìt.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873035#Comment_120873035

Their bogus/hyperbolic claim refers to their claim that lesbians are facing 'extinction' as transgenderism becomes pervasive. That’s a direct claim from the organisation themselves, no hyperbole on my part. That’s why it’s perfectly reasonable to say they’re making bogus/hyperbolic claims that are completely divorced from reality.

The document you linked to doesn't say that. It does say that lesbians are being told they are transphobic if they aren't open to sexual relations with biological males who have a female gender identity. I don't see the word on their website either for that matter. Even if they did say it some time, someone acting in good faith would try to understand what they mean by it (It's not hard). It's far less hyperbolic than some claims from trans activists (like the genocide one)

In their submission to the Committee, they are pretending that gender doesn’t exist, and that in relation to diversity on boards, they wish to have the word ‘gender’ replaced by the word ‘sex’.

That's their opinion and they are entitled to it, without being called a hate group, or compared with pigs, as you did below. It's nasty ugly stuff. It's no wonder that many women have been intimidated into silent acceptance.

Personally, subjectively, I don’t have to care what their opinions are as a lobby group. It’s why I’m not the least bit concerned about these fringe outfits like LGB Alliance, Reduxx, Fair Play for Women, the rather ironically named Countess Didn’t Fight for This and a whole plethora of organisations in that space. I choose to ignore them rather than engage with them, as engaging with them would lend credence, validation and legitimacy to their beliefs, and because I’m a firm believer in the principle that if you roll around with pigs, you end up getting covered in shìt.

It is not I who believes in subjective ideas of gender, that’s LGB Alliance members who don’t believe they have a gender identity, nor do I believe that gender is of greater importance than material and objective realities of nature. Biology is an entirely different thing - as one of the life sciences it’s concern is with the study of life, it’s a methodology as opposed to being a philosophy, evolved from philosophy precisely because it was conceived as a framework for understanding life without all the philosophical baggage which preceded it.

That’s why it’s called one of the hard sciences as opposed to the soft sciences like sociology and politics. It’s also why as another poster pointed out earlier - most adults have a lesser understanding of biology than a child in primary school. That’s a matter of a lack of knowledge caused by poor education, as opposed to anyone’s lack of familiarity with their own anatomy, physiology or psychology.

Historically our education system was more concerned with teaching rudimentary concepts such as reading, writing and mathematics, as opposed to the minutiae of biology, physiology, anatomy or anthropology. It was not for girls, and it’s still not for non-believers, at least not in Ireland, or in most countries for that matter. Were it not for the Encyclopaedia Britannica I too might still be fumbling around in the dark unable to navigate a woman’s body, and my mother would never have walked in on me tugging the skeleton out of myself and refusing to look me in the eye for days, but that’s a whole other story. Suffice to say I was a rather curious child 😂

What invalidates the opinions of LGB Alliance and other organisations like them, and the opinions of individuals who hold fast to their subjective world views in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, IS the overwhelming evidence which contradicts their deeply rooted beliefs.

That is literally the opposite of the truth. Sex is objective and gender identity is subjective. I read yesterday (and it seems to be true) that the parent bank of Coutts (of Nigel Farage fame) Nat West allows staff to use the two sided ID card badge to identify as male and female on different days. Seems a bit binary to me, but if it harms nobody else, why not? The trouble of course is that sometimes this stuff does harm other people.

To deprive themselves of knowledge is one thing, ignorance is indeed bliss, but to attempt not just to deprive other people of knowledge, and to go as far as to deny all knowledge of other people - that’s how theocracies and autocratic regimes replace democracy, which has its flaws, but it means everyone who has an opinion is entitled to express it, and their freedom to do so is upheld in law. It doesn’t follow from that principle that everyone in society is obligated to entertain their bullshìt.

Who is depriving anyone of anything? It's Stonewall who tried to get LGB alliance stripped of its charity status. It looks like it was a declared Brexit remainer who made the decision to close Nigel Farage's bank account at Coutts. The UK public are waking up today a bit shocked at how far they've gone down the road towards theocracy if not autocracy.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120870747#Comment_120870747

The irony of what's in your signature, is obviously lost on you

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873402#Comment_120873402

You appear to have missed this link in the original post you were responding to. I understand exactly what they meant by it, so do they, and so do you -

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/25/lesbians-facing-extinction-transgenderism-becomes-pervasive/

The rest of what I said is referenced in the document I provided.

Of course they’re entitled to their opinion, we’re agreed on that much. What they’re not entitled to is expressing their opinions without being identified as a hate group, or indeed pigs.

It is not the opposite of the truth, sex can be characterised in any number of ways, including but not limited to being aligned with gender which refers to the masculine and the feminine, and to demand that any set of rules in relation to diversity refer to sex rather than gender is done with the specific intent of depriving people who are transgender of recognition.

You sure that wasn’t Mermaids who sought to have LGB Alliance charity status in the UK removed? LGB Alliance were formed as a result of Stonewall refusing to entertain their bullshìt. The UK public have no idea these groups even exist, they’re that inconsequential, which is why they rely on daft, misguided, misleading propaganda to present themselves to the public as the saviours of public morality. In that regard they’re rather like beer - the cause of, and solution to all of life’s problems. They want the public to get all worked up about people who are transgender, they ignore the fact that people who are transgender have families, friends, neighbours and work colleagues, who really don’t care about such trivial matters, they care about the person who is a human being, not just an abstract concept.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873586#Comment_120873586

You appear to have missed this link in the original post you were responding to. I understand exactly what they meant by it, so do they, and so do you -

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/25/lesbians-facing-extinction-transgenderism-becomes-pervasive/

I missed it yes. Interesting that the article is from 2020. A lot has changed since then and certainly the Telegraph wouldn't be calling them "controversial" and I seriously doubt that the Ofcom chief would say now it is "entirely inappropriate" for the BBC to have them on TV. I do understand what they meant by "extinct". It's less hyperbolic than the claim of "genocide" against trans people, though I understand what they really mean too. The two terms are kind of referring to the same thing, what they perceive as the other side is doing to them....

The rest of what I said is referenced in the document I provided.

Of course they’re entitled to their opinion, we’re agreed on that much. What they’re not entitled to is expressing their opinions without being identified as a hate group, or indeed pigs.

As I said, nasty school-yard stuff. Could even be hate-speech against the protected characteristic of 'sexual orientation' under both the current law and the proposed one.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873705#Comment_120873705

Nah plodder, nasty schoolyard stuff is attempting to portray people as a threat to women and children on the basis of their characteristics; identifying hate groups expressions of their prejudice and bigotry as not worth my time, energy or effort on the principle that rolling around with pigs you would end up covered in shìt, would not constitute hate speech, either under current or proposed legislation.

That’s somewhat getting off-topic though, so I’ll leave it there for now rather than continue to entertain opinions which have little to do with policies relating the participation of people who are transgender in sports.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120873410#Comment_120873410

Not at all. The likes of Reduxx and LGB Alliance are all about othering trans people in their bigoted hate driven agendas. They dont give a crap about women or LGB people.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120877668#Comment_120877668

Our blessed homeland ..... Their barbarous wastes

https://twitter.com/tomgauld/status/571994690289061888

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120877668#Comment_120877668

The organisation was founded by gay people who fought for gay rights in the 70s and 80s.

You're talking nonsense.

plodder

As regards "giving a crap about women", people might be interested to know this month was the 200th anniversary of the "1823 Gaols Act" which mandated separate prisons for women, with female warders in the women's prisons, across the British Empire (as it was then).

I don't think I've seen it noted or remarked on anywhere.

According to wikipedia, it was inspired partly by "the sexual degradation of women and girls in Wicklow Gaol"

We've come a long way since 1823

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaols_Act_1823

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878719#Comment_120878719

Agreed. Very appropriate for Reduxx or LGB Alliance.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120879643#Comment_120879643

No.

Facts are facts. It doesn't matter how much verbal mud you throw at those two organisations, it doesn't make it true.

You want that people just accept your word that they are "hateful" groups.

Well we don't accept it.

Activists who are against LGB Alliance are de facto homophobic and bigoted.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120879794#Comment_120879794

OK. Noone can force you to accept anything.

The facts are that the entire purpose of lgb alliance is only hatred and oppression of trans people. Nothing else.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120879794#Comment_120879794

Activists who are against LGB Alliance are de facto homophobic and bigoted

prove it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120879865#Comment_120879865

It's an organisation that seeks to promote the sex-based rights of gay and bisexual people.

Anyone against that must by definition have a problem with homosexuals and bisexuals.

So yes, it's about homophobia and bigotry.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120879863#Comment_120879863

Doesn't matter how many times you repeat that slogan, it doesn't make it true.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120879909#Comment_120879909

Nothing then okay. Bad leaps in logic do not proof make.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120879909#Comment_120879909

Not true. In fact it is not only transphobic but homophobic and biphobic too and The Irish lgb alliance has been caught spreading disinformation about trans people.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/lgb-alliance-under-fire-after-23479915

https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/09/16/lgb-alliance-tribunal-mermaids-kate-harris-eileen-gallagher/

https://bicommunitynews.co.uk/2020/06/18/biphobic-lgb-rights-group-comes-out-against-equal-marriage/

https://gcn.ie/debunking-misinformation-lgb-alliance-ireland/

https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/09/14/lgb-alliance-transphobia-charity-history/

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120880676#Comment_120880676

That link dump is actually a very distorted and deliberately misleading characterisation of the charity. I could respond to each, but it's outside the scope of this thread.

All I will say is that LGB Alliance is also not misogynistic, as they actively support women's sport and not having it subjugated by biological males.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120880676#Comment_120880676

Excellent information, thanks. Everyone can see for themselves what kind of hate group they are.

El Gato De Negocios

Tbh.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120879863#Comment_120879863

That’s your opinion. It’s just not a fact.

Gamergurll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120880676#Comment_120880676

Without a link dump, can you actually quote the hate for LGB people and women please? All I am seeing is anti-trans reports, but that is a lot of reading, have I missed something?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120882124#Comment_120882124

Nobody can point to anything at all that the lgb alliance have ever done apart from being transphobic, biphobic, homophobic.

Gamergurll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120882317#Comment_120882317

As I said above I can only see the anti-trans from them (I refuse to use the term transphobic because it is certainly not a phobia). I have no issue with trans people everyone should do what makes them happy it's the TRAs I take issue with. In the links you posted I can't find an anti Gay or Bi agenda?

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120882317#Comment_120882317

When you say nobody, what you actually mean is that you consider them to be transphobic. And that’s fine. That’s your opinion.

But they’re a thriving organisation with lots of support from lots of gay people who don’t want to be associated with trans ideology because they consider trans ideology itself to be quite homophobic.

So it’s incorrect to say that nobody supports this organisation. This organisation has lots of support.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120884579#Comment_120884579

I didn't say what you are claiming I said...

All of that post had nothing to do with what I posted and didn't refute it.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120880676#Comment_120880676

So, I picked this one at random to look at ...

https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/09/16/lgb-alliance-tribunal-mermaids-kate-harris-eileen-gallagher/

Strangely – considering Harris doesn’t believe LGB children exist – LGB Alliance has been “working hard” on setting up a helpline aimed at LGB young people between the ages of 13 and 25.

So, she is lesbian herself, but she says LGB children don't exist. What could she mean by that, particularly since she is setting up a helpline for kids? Could it be she believes that children don't have a fixed sense of identity and it's only when people are older that their identity becomes more defined?

You can diasgree with them on this, but it's not evidence that they are transphobic, homophobic and biphobic as you said. It's a difference of opinion, but it's not good faith disagreement on your part.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120884789#Comment_120884789

There is a litany of transphobic and homophobic things in that article

1 Claiming lgb children don't exist

2 Opposing conversion therapy bans of trans people

3 Promoting a conspiracy theory that trans people existing is "transing the gay away"

4 Admitting that it's main focus is to undermine a trans group

EDIT

Not responding any further in this thread re LGB Alliance or Reduxx as they are wildly off topic.

zozimus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120773950#Comment_120773950

I think the issue needs to be looked at, but unfortunately although the problem is so rare that you probably won't come across it in your lifetime, certain elements are trying to make it seem like it's a large and pressing issue.

It isn't. There are so many real issues for women in sports - access to funding, changing areas, training facilities etc. This is such a non issue that there really can only be one reason for someone to bring it up.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120893718#Comment_120893718

This is such a non issue that there really can only be one reason for someone to bring it up.

The athletes who have actually lost out, who have spoken up against it, have a very different opinion.

You cannot blithely dismiss their legitimate anger at what has happened to them and their private spaces.

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120893718#Comment_120893718

"This is such a non issue that there really can only be one reason for someone to bring it up."

Unless that issue is the issue of every participant in sport being entitled to fair play and fair competition, then I can tell you with 100% certainty that you are factually incorrect. And Fairness in sports is not a non-issue. It is fundamental.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120893718#Comment_120893718

I can't follow what you are trying to say here...

You list a myriad off issues that impact female sports, another large one would be males who identify as women competing and denying females an opportunity to compete in a level playing field. It is not rare at all, recent years and stories show the rise in this. And if it only happens once anyway, that is still making it hard (yet again) for females to compete in that category.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120894147#Comment_120894147

Maybe people should get behind those issues that appear more often then?

If they're so genuinely worried about women's sports

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120893787#Comment_120893787

I thought it was about race times now you’re saying it’s really about penis panic after all the denial?

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120894550#Comment_120894550

Feel free to start a thread on any of those issues that you feel strongly about. It would be nice not to have this thread dragged off on another off-topic wander (again).

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120894550#Comment_120894550

Yeah...because people have't advocated for women's sports or rights at all...right?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895094#Comment_120895094

I don't see half as many people advocating for anything in women's sports except stopping trans women!

Just look at the threads on here about the women's world cup, Jesus

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895103#Comment_120895103

Well you will only see your first point mentioned in here.

I haven't checked the threads on the WCC, I am too busy watching it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895103#Comment_120895103

There's no logic to the position that just because other aspects of women's sport are not discussed, that the issue of this thread should just be ignored.

In fact, it comes across that you would rather have this topic not discussed at all.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895261#Comment_120895261

The issue of this thread is what exactly: penis panic. Discuss? /shrug

It's certainly not a passion for womens sport.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895276#Comment_120895276

I'll discuss.

People with penises, in general, have an unfair advantage if they are allowed to compete in sports that are meant to be exclusively for biological women.

End of discussion.

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895103#Comment_120895103

Can you point us to the threads where you are advocating for anything in women's sports, please? Or indeed can you point us to the threads that show you have any interest in sports at all? I would so disappointed to think that you might be posting hypocritically, so please take this opportunity to show that I'm making a false assumption,

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895276#Comment_120895276

To remind me, the issue being discussed is biological males competing against females in sports and possessing biological advantages.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895284#Comment_120895284

No not end of discussion, where do "private spaces" come into the conversation then, if not for the sake of penis panic? Sports aren't a private affair, certainly not competitive and league sports.

Generalizations are immaterial in this regard when Equal Protection is at stake. A castrated male swims slower than a whole male? Pithy clap, the penis is not the material part of this topic, except it is because people are freaking out about it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895304#Comment_120895304

I think your characterisation of women's concerns is highly distasteful.

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895304#Comment_120895304

Are you just determined to prove how lttle you know about sports or science.

A male swimmer who was castrated before puberty will swim slower than he would otherwise have. Do you know that teststerone is a PED, Do you understand what that means, and how being castrated might have an impact on natural teststerone levels.

Godalmight, remedial level sports science is needed to be slowly explianed so often in this thread its unreal.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895345#Comment_120895345

That's your prerogative. I think it's highly distasteful you've characterized this as having anything to do with private spaces - only verifying unfortunately that this is not at all about Sports, it's about 'women's concerns' it's about Penis Panic TM. Agree to disagree.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895362#Comment_120895362

Are you just determined to prove how lttle you know about sports or science.

Ad Hominem. I just assume you don't know anything, as I don't know you from Adam or an NSA agent.

A male swimmer who was castrated before puberty will swim slower than he would otherwise have.

Prove it if you don't mind, you challenge my knowledge, I challenge yours. It's an interesting claim but my question didn't specifically pertain to a pubescence threshold, thanks for the goalpost shift.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895304#Comment_120895304

You think the performance enhancer for a male swimmer is the penis? Is this taking the mick?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895473#Comment_120895473

What are you talking about? That's clearly not what I said, nor the material part of what I was saying.