Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

Jack Daw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263520#Comment_120263520

What a ridiculous comment to make.

It's completely irrelevant how she would do against Katie Ledecky , all that matter is she has an unfair advantage by virtue of being biologically male.

Faugheen

I see it’s now irrelevant to extinguish the notion that Lia Thomas will beat everyone in front of her.

Have at it lads.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263956#Comment_120263956

You've been picking an odd hill to die on.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263752#Comment_120263752

The user gave a real example and you both gave two counterfactual examples.

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263956#Comment_120263956

Why do believe sports have been segregated by sex?

Once you answer then let me know why you believe that segregation should be removed from all sports.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263827#Comment_120263827

This is an American thread about American sports and American competitors. 🤣

Even the counterfactuals provided are of Americans like Phelps, the talking heads cited are Americans like Jenner.

I think someone has infected the forum with the idea that anti-American bigotry for the sake of showing off anti-Americanism is to be fashionable around here.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120264065#Comment_120264065

Yet there’s ‘science’ behind counterfactual arguments about Michael Phelps transition or Katie Taylor being beat by “the average male boxer” 🤣 (‘she became one of only eight boxers in history (female or male) to hold all four major world titles in boxing simultaneously’) but we can’t possibly consider - actual footage of women beating men in fighting competitions or indeed openly discuss Lia Thomas getting trounced by actual, biological women in her sport like Katie Ledecky?

Figure out where the standard is lads. I sure haven’t seen any peer reviewed journal articles shared around pushing these counterfactual arguments forward.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120264104#Comment_120264104

Which “girl” is under discussion now. A real one like Katie Ledecky or an imagined one to make absurd ad hominem arguments with.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120264239#Comment_120264239

Again with the emojis.

You make up fantasy scenarios about Usain Bolt et al but when a real life example is put in front of you then you say it’s irrelevant because it doesn’t suit your argument.

Another poster clearly assumes Lia Thomas’ advantages are so vast that no woman could beat her. I tell them the chances of a woman beating her is very high and I’m asked what my basis is for that. Then other people say I’m ‘cajoling’ or ‘gaslighting’. If someone is asking what my basis is for a woman beating Lia Thomas is, then they’re already assuming it can’t be done.

Its all so predictable.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120264036#Comment_120264036

I never said segregation should be removed. Did I?

Funny how I’m accused of gaslighting and you’re literally right here putting words in my mouth.

I was talking about one assumption that was made by a poster that no woman stood a chance against Lia Thomas. I didn’t make a point about trans women in general. I was talking about the one example we have where a trans woman is being beaten by women.

Seriously people need to stop making up things that were never said.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120264298#Comment_120264298

Factually, you would expect Lia to have also been ranked ~500th if there were no gender advantages (we know there is), that she went into the top 10 highlights that gender is an issue when it comes to sports.

The fact she would lose to Ledecky who would be one of the very elite athletes in the world isn't an argument, it's not comparing like with like, you need to take an athlete currently competing as male and finishing in similar positions to Ledecky in international competition and then do the comparison. Lia was not an elite athlete nor is likely to be.

The argument then becomes what level of change (testosterone level usually or puberty) should be applied to a trans athlete to compete fairly, some argue that nothing should be done.

Given your question has been answered (Ledecky, an elite athlete, would likely beat Lia, a good amateur) do you think it's fair for Daley or Phelps to also compete against female athletes? If so, what level, if any, of change should be applied? Let's see if you can stop ratholing.

Assume everyone would answer as such so you don't need to go after other users continually.

eggy81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120264205#Comment_120264205

And plenty have finished behind her too. They’re the ones that should have finished 1 place better.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120264352#Comment_120264352

Ok fine, let’s take Katie Ledecky out of it.

What about the 4 women who beat in the the 200yd at the NCAAs, or the 7 who beat her in the 100? Are they all Katie Ledeckys or is Lia Thomas’ advantage not big enough to stop women from being able to beat her?

Nobody is denying the physical advantage that Lia Thomas has, but there was an assumption made that no woman would beat her by someone who hasn’t the first clue about women’s swimming. That’s absolute nonsense and it needed to be debunked.

This debate can take place without people who haven’t a clue about the sport making false assumptions without doing their homework. Would you agree?

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120264322#Comment_120264322

Why are you here defending Lia Thomas if you don't believe in segregation.

If you believe Lia Thomas should be allowed in women's swimming than it is a valid assumption that you believe in segregation of sport.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120264441#Comment_120264441

Once again, because you’re clearly incapable of reading, you’re making a false assumption without knowing the facts.

There was a false assumption made that no woman would beat Lia Thomas. That is false and needed to be debunked.

This debate can absolutely be had and it should continue to be had. However, when people make up things that have zero basis in reality then that needs to be addressed with the actual facts.

Do you think false narratives should be peddled in this discussion? Yes or no?

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120264431#Comment_120264431

Were those 4 women ranked in the 500's or higher? What level of change should be applied to female trans-athletes so they can compete fairly?

Nobody is denying the physical advantage that Lia Thomas has

The implication is that if someone like Ledecky had gone through male puberty (and this is where danger comes in as it then becomes an advantage that people can medicate for during puberty) no one would be able to compete against her successfully, the case of the club foot NFL kicker becomes relevant here from a sports person safety perspective:

Tom Dempsey - Wikipedia

i.e. what biological modifications people make, or are forced into, to improve performance.

Now, there is an argument that the number of trans-athletes is so small that it doesn't require legislating for, however, sports bodies don't work that way, their first priority is fairness and they will spend time as needed on individual cases in ensuring fairness.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120264441#Comment_120264441

What a lot of users end up arguing (as it's the natural endpoint of their side of the argument) is for removal of all segregation, male/female, weight, age. This is of course a ridiculous endpoint, hence recommending to get them there early where it all falls apart like a house of cards.

If they accept testosterone reduction or puberty blockers as legitimate options, then the argument becomes what rules should be set around those options, but this means the competition is non-inclusive (but can be fair).

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120264464#Comment_120264464

There was a false assumption made that no woman would beat Lia Thomas. That is false and needed to be debunked

Fine, that one person was wrong. That is not the argument the vast majority of people are making.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120264484#Comment_120264484

I was talking to that one person.

Since then other posters have come at me accusing me of gaslighting, saying I’m against segregated sports, saying that I was ‘cajoling’ and ‘ratholing’.

All for arguing with the poster and pointing out how wrong they are. Why am I being hassled on debunking nonsense when all of the above is being levelled at me with zero basis or foundation for it?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120264513#Comment_120264513

Because other people are making other arguments and you are continuing to revert to that one stupid argument that no one else is making.

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120264464#Comment_120264464

You are deliberately ignoring multiple points made and repeating the same thing one poster said.

If you are arguing in favor of Lisa Thomas competing than you are in favor of segregation of sports.

So a simple question is do you agree with Lia Thomas competing in women's swimming or not.

chopperbyrne

For those lacking the ability to understand a basic concept.

Will Thomas - Not even close to qualifying for NCAA Division 1 Finals.

Lia Thomas - Takes a year off to transition (not sure if any medicalisation was part of it. If it was, it just makes it worse) then qualifies for the NCAA Division 1 Finals, winning the 500 Freestyle event.

A mediocre (in the realms of elite college swimming) male swimmer, transitions and becomes a national champion.

It's irrelevant if Lia Thomas is the best in the world, and would beat the top Olympic level swimmers or not.

Lia's participation in the female swimming events at collegiate level was clearly unfair, and cost at least one, and possibly several girls their place on the team, and cost one swimmer a podium.

The NCAA changed their rules after the season because of it.

greenspurs

And its coming to the LGFA soon, as they have decided its ok for Transgender to compete against girls/women in Gaelic Football......

Beasty

Mad_maxx threadbanned

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120264352#Comment_120264352

I love the shifting of goalposts

”

The fact she would lose to Ledecky who would be one of the very elite athletes in the world isn't an argument, it's not comparing like with like, you need to take an athlete currently competing as male and finishing in similar positions to Ledecky in international competition and then do the comparison. Lia was not an elite athlete nor is likely to be.”

The argument last night was the trans man was denying women a place at the top - now when it’s pointed out she hasn’t, ah the goals have to shift. Now we have to get really finicky and pick apart stats in the middle.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120264353#Comment_120264353

This really highlights the absurdity of the goal post shift. As if there’s a finite number of competitors or ranks to climb.

“if you’re not first you’re last”

But now that a biological woman is first over a trans woman the anti trans narrative is trying hard to rebrand itself here this morning to something different.

Podge_irl

There is no shifting of goalposts. You are just ascribing the argument of one person who I don't think is even posting at the moment to absolutely everybody else who comments on the matter.

El Gato De Negocios

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120265956#Comment_120265956

As has been pointed out multiple times by multiple people, its not so much LT or any trans athlete ultimately winning a competition thats the issue, its that they (LT in this case) is actually involved in the competitions in the first instance and the only reason they are involved in the first instance is because they possess attributes that virtually no female athlete will have unless they've been juicing.

LT was an unremarkable athlete when competing against men but suddenly, because they are now trans, they are competing at the highest levels. Fine, they may not win them all or even any, but the reality is that by them being in the events, possessing the natural biological advantages being born male and going through puberty as a male, they are costing females who have trained rigorously but who simply cannot compete because they were born female the opportunity to compete.

That in my view is deeply unfair and is the crux of the entire issue.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266013#Comment_120266013

Ohhhh changing the kickers

totally not the same thing

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266022#Comment_120266022

One person made a stupid argument. Therefore every single other person who makes a different or more nuanced argument is doing so in bad faith and shifting goalposts. That is basically your position?

That is incredibly stupid.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120266034#Comment_120266034

Replacing “a stupid argument” with another equally or even more stupid argument isn’t a winning proposition.

As if it shatters a swimmers world she’s in 438th pace instead of 437th.