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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,535 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    There's male sex offenders in the womens prison now, no? I mean we can all genuinely believe that they are women but also can see that they are men.


    Anyone know where Barbie Kardashian is these days either?


    I no longer know which way is up or down either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭Gentlemanne


    It's a bit much to say that nobody has suggested something anti-transgender rights, then you do just that.. You clearly don't like or want Self- ID which is literally a right that transgender people have.

    And the whole thing about trans rights supersceding women's rights is just nonsense. If you'd have lived in civil rights era US you'd be making the same argument against coloured people taking over the rights of whites because of a push to integratre water fountains and other public spaces.

    Also this thread meant to be about a trans man in sports, but it seems like the usual suspects can't help with their tired old talking points about how transgender people in general are a threat to society just for existing. YAWN!



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,992 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    No. That is not an example of Self ID abuse or fakery.

    There are trans women in a womens prison who are completely segregated from other inmates.

    It fascinates me how suddenly many people are concerned about the welfare of cis women prisoners when they never ever gave a crap about them before.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ah right. Trans women are not "real" trans women just because Klaz declared them fake 🤣

    Not what I said.. but I'm not terribly surprised. You'll do anything to avoid having an honest discussion on the topic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,983 ✭✭✭✭chopperbyrne


    Rapists about to be sent to prison suddenly have a revelation that they're actually a woman and get sent to a women's prison instead, and you think this isn't fakery or abuse of Self ID?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    In the circumstances you’re describing, it might be the case that the person is trying to abuse self-ID for their own personal gain, but that would be determined on a case by case basis, same as accommodating prisoners is determined on a case by case basis.

    According to your logic, rapists like Gayle Newland and Gemma Barker who claimed to be men, should be housed with men, because their victims were women -

    https://theconversation.com/amp/guilty-verdict-in-sex-deception-case-may-be-bad-news-for-people-transitioning-to-a-new-gender-47617


    I’d be more concerned with how prisoners are treated by the people who are entrusted with the authority to protect all prisoners tbh, given some of them are known to abuse their authority when the opportunity presents itself -

    The Ministry of Justice (MoJ) failed to prevent systemic breaches of inmates human rights when they were unlawfully strip searched at a privately-run jail.

    The searches involved four inmates at HMP Peterborough in 2017, including one inmate who was menstruating. 

    Sodexo runs the prison and admitted it had breached MoJ privacy rules through its failure to properly train staff.

    The MoJ should have had effective safeguards in place against privacy breaches, the High Court has ruled.

    The inmates involved in the strip searches in July and September 2017 were three women and a transgender prisoner, who was transitioning from female to male.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-47334760.amp


    In any case, the fact that there are people who are not transgender who would use the legislation to engage in that sort of behaviour, is not a reason to deprive anyone of their right to be recognised in law as their preferred gender. It was never necessary for anyone to be in possession of a GRC to abuse prison accommodation policies, they could always do that, if they were of a mind to do so. The circumstances you’re describing have no bearing on Self-ID legislation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,983 ✭✭✭✭chopperbyrne


    "According to your logic, rapists like Gayle Newland and Gemma Barker who claimed to be men, should be housed with men, because their victims were women -"

    That is not what I've suggested at all.

    Just more absolute nonsense from you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭mohawk


    The Yawn here is that Self-ID was unnecessary. We could and should of gone down the route of places like the UK where medical professionals are involved in process of obtaining a gender recognition cert. So transgender persons could still have their gender changed legally aka no loss in rights.

    Anyone born male and went through male puberty should never have been allowed participate in female sports categories unless it is something like horse racing where it doesn’t matter. That was one groups feelings and validation being put ahead of women’s right to fair sport.

    When it comes to sport it should be based on a person’s natal sex not their internal feelings about their gender. You obviously value a person’s feelings about gender over biological sex and you have a right to your opinion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I didn’t claim it’s what you suggested? I’m applying the same logic you’re using in your argument -

    Rapists about to be sent to prison suddenly have a revelation that they're actually a woman and get sent to a women's prison instead, and you think this isn't fakery or abuse of Self ID?


    Rapists about to be sent to prison suddenly have a revelation that they’re actually men, using your logic would mean they should actually be sent to a men’s prison because their victims were women, and they shouldn’t be housed in the same prison as women on the basis that they might harm women, given they have already been convicted of a criminal offence, and their victims were women.

    I’m reminded of this statistic, which For Women Scotland tried to claim was a result of men claiming to be women being recorded as such, when in actual fact it was how their victims identified the perpetrators -

    Between 2015 and 2019, the numbers of reported cases of female-perpetrated child sexual abuse to police in England and Wales rose from 1,249 to 2,297 - an increase of 84%.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-55338745.amp


    It’s understandable that people would immediately associate people who commit rape and other sexual offences with men, and be repulsed by the idea that women could be capable of committing such acts, but those preconceived ideas are based upon their own prejudices and beliefs -


    According to Dr Kieran McCartan, associate professor of criminology at the University of the West of England in Bristol and a specialist in sexual offences, these figures aren't down to an "epidemic" but are the result of cultural changes. 

    "I think there has been a shift in society which has enabled victims to feel more confident coming forward," he says. 

    "There is greater trust in the police taking sex offences seriously, their investigations are more attuned and in turn more cases are being referred to courts."

    It’s a sentiment echoed by clinical and forensic psychologist Dr Katie Seidler, who says that the past couple of decades have led to greater recognition of the capacity for women to engage in sexual offences. 

    "Women are also being held more accountable – in the past there has been an element of their behaviour being minimised or excused, that they are somehow not capable of this behaviour. But as society has changed those old-fashioned views have changed," she says.

    Dr McCartan acknowledges, however, that society has long had a problem with the notion of a female sex offender.

    "We get very uncomfortable with the idea of female offenders in general, never mind sexual offenders as they are going against a deep-seated notion of what it means to be feminine, to be a mother, a nurturing figure and all those societal norms and stereotypes," he says.

    "We also talk about them in very different ways: we refer to male offenders as evil and sadistic, but we often see female offenders as being vulnerable or mentally unstable."

    That difference in language extends to victims too. "We say victims of male grooming are damaged, but reverse it and there is still this idea that if a female teacher seduces a pupil they 'got lucky.' It allows us to think about them in a very different way."

    It is a view echoed by forensic psychologist Nina Burrows, who says that as a society we have historically preferred not to confront the notion of female abusers. 

    “We find it abhorrent because it challenges our ideas of women and motherhood,” she explains.

    “We also find it frightening because we like to live with the idea that men are dangerous and women are safe, so when you see children talking to a male stranger in the park it’s dangerous but if they’re talking to a woman it isn’t."

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5867301/female-sex-offenders-paedo-mistress-babysitter/amp/


    Your argument is that their intent is to abuse prison accommodation policies in order to abuse women, so they should be housed with men in order to prevent them from having access to women in order to abuse them. That’s suggesting that people who have been convicted of committing sexual offences should be accommodated according to the perceived sex or gender of their victims.

    If that were the policy, it wouldn’t just apply to anyone who claims to have had a revelation that they were the opposite sex in the hope of abusing prison accommodation policies to be housed with prisoners of the sex of their victims, it would apply to all prisoners.

    Reality however, is more complex than the limitations of your hypothetical nonsense argument against recognising that people have a right to be recognised by the State as their preferred gender. Were policy actually dictated by your simplistic reasoning, we wouldn’t have birthday photos like this -



    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/scissor-sister-moved-to-new-jail-after-knife-photos-leaked-26471149.html


    Or stories more reminiscent of the plot of a bad Netflix drama -


    This is the second time Charlotte Mulhall has been embroiled in a scandal with prison staff. In November 2017 a male member of prison staff was found hiding behind a shower curtain in Mulhall’s en-suite bathroom. The officer was ‘very flustered’ and CCTV recorded him entering her cell 10 minutes earlier. Prison officers later entered Charlotte Mulhall’s room as there was a suspicion the pair were in a sexual relationship.

    https://extra.ie/2019/01/04/news/irish-news/scissor-sister-charlotte-mulhall-caught-having-sex-with-jail-worker-in-cell


    Have you given any consideration to convicted sex offenders who commit rape and other sexual offences, whose victims are men and boys, and where they should be accommodated so that they’re not a danger to men and boys in prisons which accommodate men and boys?

    Or is it just women you’ll pretend to give a shìt about in order to support your argument that Self-ID should be rescinded in law on the basis that there are convicted sex offenders who abuse it, even though it’s existence in law makes no difference whatsoever to how and where prisoners are to be accommodated as that’s decided on a case by case basis, taking into account all the circumstances involved in each case?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,621 ✭✭✭Enduro


    Meanwhile, in actual sports-related content.....

    The Boston Marathon (One of the most prestigious in the world) has extended its gender categories to include a non-binary option, with the qualifying standards initially set to be the same as the female standards. They seem to organise big enough events that a separate category will have more than just one or two runners and as a result be competitive. No doubt some TRAs will reject this inclusion.

    Also, for those who actually care about the latest sports science around sex differences, some interesting new research and analysis here...




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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    No doubt there absolutely will be people regardless of whether they’re transgender or not will reject this categorisation, but as regards the participation of transgender individuals themselves and their participation in the more prestigious marathons such as Boston, Chicago, London, New York and Los Angeles, transgender individuals have been eligible to compete in those major events for some time now as they follow the 2015 IOC guidelines -

    USA Track & Field

    USA Track & Field (USATF) Board of Directors adopted the updated its policy on transgender athletes to match the November 2015 update by the International Olympic Committee, thereby removing the requirement for surgery. USATF now uses the 2015 IOC Consensus Statement as its policy.

    MARATHON MAJORS: Organizers of the Boston, Chicago, New York City, London and Los Angeles marathons all said they honor the gender that runners submit during sign-ups.

    https://www.transathlete.com/us-ngbs


    The inclusion of a category for runners who identify as non-binary is an extension of existing policies, not specifically related to athletes who are transgender -

    https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a19742832/boston-marathon-policies-transgender-runners/


    Where it gets complicated is for athletes like CeCe Telfer who was deemed ineligible to compete in Olympic trials, because even though they qualified under USATF rules, they didn’t qualify for their chosen event under WA rules -

    Transgender runner CeCe Telfer will not be allowed to compete in the women's 400-meter hurdles at U.S. Olympic trials because Telfer has not met the conditions World Athletics established in its eligibility regulations for certain women's events.

    https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/31697910/transgender-runner-cece-telfer-ruled-ineligible-us-olympic-trials


    I’d also be of the opinion btw that the article you posted shouldn’t just be of interest just to people who actually care about the latest sports science around sex differences, but that it should be of interest to anyone really, regardless of where they stand on the issue of the rights of anyone to participate in sports in accordance with their preferred gender. The article is certainly more digestible than this review which argues the same point - that the explanation for the sex gap in sports being down to biological differences between the sexes, offers a fairly limited explanation, and there are a couple of different, equally valid hypotheses which explain the differences in performance observed in men’s and women’s running events -

    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2021.804149/full


    The authors do note however, a couple of limitations of the present study, and make a more general point about the limitations of current research in their conclusion -

    A limitation of the present study is the lack of use of inferential statistics. Although the data set used is representative of the population studied (top 20 best male and female runners between 2001 and 2020), some runners appeared in different years and events multiple times. These multiple appearances for the same runners violate the independence assumption where each data element must be selected independently of data previously selected. Another limitation is the analyses of a relatively short time frame (20 years) and the observed small fluctuations in the sex gap over the last 20 years. Therefore, we recommended here, a word of caution, in regard to meaningful and practical significance.

    (What they mean by inferential statistics - https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/inferential-statistics)


    Conclusion

    It is undeniable that the drastic narrowing of the sex gap during the 20th century has leveled off, and the current data indicates that performance will not be completely equalized between the sexes, at least for Olympic running distances (Cheuvront et al., 2005Thibault et al., 2010Millard-Stafford et al., 2018). However, the assertions that the sex gap is now fixed and explained entirely by biological sex differences is a limited explanation. The sex gap in athletic performance is not a stable entity; elite male and female runners are constantly evolving in relation to their same-sex competitors and to one another. In the last two decades, the top 20 sex gap has widened slightly for the 400 m, narrowed slightly for the 1,500 m and 5,000 m, and had fluctuated for the 10,000 m and Marathon (Figure 1). This could be due to a range of integrated biological and environmental factors; shifts in training strategies, technologies, research, event demands, opportunities, participation, provisions, legislation and perceptions can all play a role in performance progression in runners. When one sex experiences differential advantages from these factors, this is likely to be reflected in a change – narrowing or widening – in the sex gap. The present review demonstrates that there is not just a sex gap in absolute performance, but also in competition depth. The sex gap increases with rank position, i.e., at a lower performance level, in events 400 m and longer (Figure 2). This suggests there are more male runners that are closer to the sex-specific world class standard than females, and that the male competitive field is more homogenous. Seeking to rectify this gap will require a multidisciplinary approach to the address the sex biases that pervade sport and research.


    The current furore kinda reminds me of the accusations of “technological doping” when advances in sports technology are claimed by some people to give athletes an “unfair advantage” over other competitors. Peer-reviewed studies, funded by the shoe manufacturers, Nike, are an advertisement which lends considerable credibility to their claims -

    https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/nike-alphafly-banned-technological-doping/amp/


    It wouldn’t be like a large corporation which has skin in the game in terms of sponsorship to use that to leverage their brand, would it? Of course it would 🤑



    https://www.advocate.com/business/2021/11/10/nike-ad-features-argentinas-first-trans-woman-soccer-player?amp

    https://www.cnsnews.com/article/national/emily-robertson/nike-partners-gender-cool-project-promote-transgender-athletes

    Post edited by One eyed Jack on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭Dazler97


    I'm 25 and gay and there is only 2 genders male and female don't care what people say



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,992 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭Dazler97




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    The non binary category is going to be interesting to watch as while the qualifying time is set at the female range, the podium will more than likely be biologically male. The winning time for the female race in the last Summer Olympics would have come in 71st in the male race.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,297 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    does non binary include binary trans though?

    In order to register, nonbinary runners have to have qualified by completing a marathon “as a nonbinary participant” during the current qualifying window.

    i wonder has there been many qualifying marathons accepting explicitly 'non-binary' entrants ..



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,992 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,305 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt




  • Registered Users Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭plodder


    The article is certainly more digestible than this review which argues the same point - that the explanation for the sex gap in sports being down to biological differences between the sexes, offers a fairly limited explanation, and there are a couple of different, equally valid hypotheses which explain the differences in performance observed in men’s and women’s running events -

    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2021.804149/full

    That's a good article but I don't think it says that. Look at this part of the introduction:

    "The sex gap in sports performance is primarily rooted in biological differences between the sexes, namely in relation to male’s superior skeletal muscle mass, oxidative capacities and lower fat mass (Joyner, 2017). However, there is a range of sociocultural, psychological and sport-specific factors that could explain some of the variance between male and female athletic performance"

    The sex gap is primarily rooted in biological differences, but there is a range of sociocultural .. factors that could explain some of the variance. So, the article is about the possibility for improvements in the sociocultural factors that might benefit women. It accepts that the primary differences are fixed and unchangeable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    It accepts that the primary differences are fixed and unchangeable.


    It doesn’t though, in fact it specifically makes the point that women are being trained with strategies which do not regard the biological differences between the sexes, and that if they did, the potential for women to perform better would mean the sex gap would be reduced -

    Hence, the physiological, biomechanical and neuromuscular profiles of a typical female middle-distance runner could mean they have greater potential to excel at longer aerobic-based events than the 800 m (Duffield and Dawson, 2003Duffield et al., 2005). If this is true, then you may expect the sex gap to be greater in the 800 m than other middle- and long-distances. This was not clear from the top 20 sex gap analysis; however, we did see a narrowing of the gap over time for the 1,500 m and 5,000 m and this trend was absent for the 800 m (Figure 1). Perhaps females are “training smarter” in these longer events, leading to greater relative improvement compared to males. There may be scope for female 800 m runners to narrow the sex gap by tapping into the ASR domain, which is evidently a successful approach for male middle-distance runners (Sandford et al., 2018). There is a male sex bias in middle-distance running research (Mpholwane, 2007) which means that coaches tend to train female athletes using strategies that have been validated in males, but do not take into consideration aforementioned sex differences. Hence, more research is needed using female runners to ensure that training strategies will enable them to reach their biological potential.


    The issue of biological differences between the sexes and sociological beliefs, expectations and standards crops up in all sorts of sports, with the most extreme example I have experienced anyways, being the sport of bodybuilding -


    So while the empowering aspect of bodybuilding may be attractive to some women, the cultural repulsion of visible muscle on the female body might be an inhibiting factor for many women, discouraging them from getting involved in strength training and bodybuilding. Many of us know or have female friends who refuse to lift heavy weights in the fear of becoming “too muscular”. On the other hand, there are still women who love bodybuilding, seek muscle, and set out to acquire the type of visible muscularity that is traditionally shunned by society. I studied this group of women in my master’s degree research, and I noticed that the most common form of gender expression among female bodybuilders is filled with paradoxes. The most glaring paradox is the bodybuilders’ efforts to be simultaneously (super) muscular and (super) feminine. In fact, to display hyper-femininity is a requirement at women’s bodybuilding competitions. Competitors are required to look/be feminine in order to be viewed favorably by judges. This means having a feminine posing style on stage and visually creating a look that is judged as feminine (this includes the hair, makeup, nails, jewellery, competition suit and shoes).

    https://thesocietypages.org/engagingsports/2017/06/19/accepting-or-subverting-norms-of-femininity-the-case-of-female-bodybuilders/


    Some posters only look at the pics, so for their benefit -





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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Jarhead_Tendler


    OEJ get a blog most people have no interest in reading your essays



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    800m

    1:53.28 Jarmila KRATOCHVÍLOVÁ F

    1:40.91 WR David Rudisha M

    And a man the same size as the female body builder would be able to put on more muscle mass.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,368 ✭✭✭✭y0ssar1an22


    this must have been put to bed - its so simple...

    you got XX, a female

    XY, a male.

    when i was a kid, i dressed up as a women, dressed up as a power ranger ranger and cat as well.

    i'm just happy my parents didn't try to cut my dick off.

    its child abuse, end of.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭plodder


    It doesn’t though, in fact it specifically makes the point that women are being trained with strategies which do not regard the biological differences between the sexes, and that if they did, the potential for women to perform better would mean the sex gap would be reduced

    That's a very different point. The biological differences between men and women are fixed and immutable. But, the fact that research in exercise physiology has traditionally concentrated on male physiology means that optimising research and training for female physiology does suggest that the gap may be reduced. That's got nothing to do with the immutability of biological differences, but it does acknowledge the difference in biology and that optimal training regimes should acknowledge that.

    Also, even if the gap continues to narrow forever more, that doesn't mean the gap will reduce to zero. My vague recollection of leaving cert maths explains this in terms of limits. The gap between two curves can keep on reducing but if both curves are approaching two different limits, then they will never meet.

    You can see it in the male and female marathon world records in the graphs below. Massive improvements in women's times mirroring the corresponding men's improvements 80 years earlier. Neither graph show the latest data which has both curves essentially flat. I added red lines at the end to show it. Male record set in 2:01:39 (2018) last point on graph 2:03:38 (2011). Female record is 2:14:04 (2019) which is only one minute faster than the previous record set 16 years earlier. It's looking like there will always be a ten minute (or greater) gap between the sexes. Male times seem to be converging towards 2:00:00 and female to 2:10 maybe, with no guarantee that either sex will reach either of them.

    And as the article says:

    The purpose of this discussion is not to create a “battle of the sexes” (Tanaka, 2002), since males and females are not in direct competition with each other but, rather, with members of their own sex.

    Seems like a naive thing to say in the present climate, but at least you know what they mean. It's about women overcoming barriers that have stopped them from reaching their potential. It's not about showing the sex gap can be reduced to zero.



  • Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭UID0


    It's unfortunately not so simple. Putting people into numbered categories for later reference:

    1. For 97-99% of the population it is XX female, XY male.
    2. For the other 1-3%, the medical term "Disorders of Sexual Development", or more commonly "intersex", applies. These are people whose body presentation does not match their genetics.
    3. There is a group of people who are genotypically and phenotypically "normal" (group 1), but whose gender identity is not congruent with their biological sex. We refer to these people as transgender. Whether one agrees with this concept or not, it should be recognised that for individuals in this group, it is real. They believe it to be the case that they are the opposite gender to their biology.

    Group 3, and people who advocate for them argue that their gender identity is more important than their biology, and that they should be entitled to use the provisions put in place for group 2 to allow them to compete in competitions for the opposite sex. Others believe that gender identity is not relevant or don't believe in it as a concept.

    The question then becomes one of finding a way, if one exists, to allow transgender athletes to compete in their desired biological category.

    I believe inclusion should be facilitated, but not at the expense of safety or fairness. It means that if, in any sport, there are no advantages based on biology, then there should be no segregation of men and women in competition. For any contact sports, they should be separated based on biological sex. I don't think looking at each case individually is feasible as it would lead any sporting body open to criticism and potentially legal challenges/consequences. For non-contact sports, there needs to be proof that "gender affirming" treatment nullifies the biological advantages. This needs to be along the lines of reducing the strength/agility/endurance of an athlete to their equivalent level in the opposite sex, not reducing from the performance of a low level elite athlete to a top level elite athlete of the opposite sex.

    In general society, I don't think that gender identity should have any legal standing. The law should not treat people differently based on their gender. Any differences in treatment should be where they are required on the basis of biology. I have huge reservations in schools facilitating transitioning, and believe that for young people, society has a responsibility to protect them from making decisions that may not be in their best long term interest. We already do that with issues like smoking, drinking alcohol, age of consent. Once a person is over 18 and of sound mind, then they can make that decision for themselves, hopefully after informing themselves fully of the consequences of any actions they take. They have to realise that no matter what surgical/medical interventions are performed, they will never be biologically of the opposite sex.

    The people in group 2 are being sacrificed by those arguing that group 3 should be treated the same as group 2.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    It IS a very different point, because it directly contradicts your claim that the article accepts that biological differences between the sexes are fixed and immutable. It doesn’t, because their overall point is that biological differences between the sexes only offers a limited explanation for the sex gap in sports.

    They don’t argue that the sex gap can be reduced to zero, I didn’t either, because as they point out - the point of the discussion is not to create a battle between the sexes, since males and females are not in direct competition with each other, but, rather with members of their own sex, ie - individual competitors who will have all sorts of advantages over each other which will influence their opportunities to participate in sports, let alone their opportunities to reach elite status at international level.

    It’s your argument that biology is the only relevant factor in sports, but their point is that it isn’t, which is why I said the article proposes other hypotheses for the sex gap in sports, because they are of the opinion that biological differences as a means to explain the sex gap in sports only offers a limited explanation, which it does.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭plodder


    Sigh. It's not my argument that biology is the only relevant factor in sports. I said it was an interesting article. That's because I agree with it.

    What I'm disagreeing with is your assertion that:

    there are a couple of different, equally valid hypotheses which explain the differences in performance observed in men’s and women’s running events -

    When the article says:

    The sex gap is primarily rooted in biological differences, but there are a range of sociocultural .. factors that could explain some of the variance. Which I agree with.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    You’re taking one line out of context out of the whole article, which you’re interpreting as supporting your point of view, you even took the time to do up a fancy graph in support of your argument, which was never the argument being made by the article in the first place. That’s why it wasn’t naive of them in the current climate to make the point that they weren’t making a battle between the sexes, because the research wasn’t concerned at all with runners who are transgender or non-binary or any of the rest of it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    So why is the man about 13 seconds faster in the 800m than the woman. The assertion was made there is no real difference. We all know at the top elite level this will always happen.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    A whole culmination of factors is why, and for the purposes of answering the question I’m assuming you’re not just referring to any individual athletes, because there are plenty of women will be faster than other women, and plenty of men will be faster than other men.

    The reductive hypothetical scenario of reducing the argument down to circumstances between one man and one woman solely on the basis of their sex, absent of any other criteria, is not in any way, shape or form, representative of the reality of competitions in sports, let alone at elite levels where there are still thousands of athletes, both men and women competing, in a number of disciplines and events from a number of countries, funded in various ways either through personally financing themselves, or through sponsorship, or through public and private funding provided by sporting bodies or private entities.



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