Doctor Strange In The Multiverse Of Madness *spoilers from post 118*

Spon Farmer

Isn’t a cameo “a brief uncredited appearance by a well known person in one scene”?

Spoiler Warning

The only one that qualifies is Bruce Campbell if you allow for bit of leeway with the definition - and this is assuming he is uncredited.

Stewart, Atwell, Lynch, Elijfor and Krakinski are all listed in the credits.

And Michael Stuhlberg has some powerhouse of an agent that can him listed on the posters for this movie.

pixelburp

I think Far From Home broke my brain when it comes to MCU spoilers. I don't care anymore: not that I don't care about the stories that is, or what happens, but it doesn't bother me to have "X appears in Y!!" revealed before I see the film(s) anymore.

I tried to stay spoiler free for FFH for ages, knowing with kid stuff it'd be digital before I got to watching it. That's fine. I can wait. But after about a month, everyone stopped being coy on YouTube, podcasts and so on, about who appeared within. Even official clips for the home release revealed a cameo or two. Suddenly I learned the secrets without even trying, thanks to the statute of spoiler limitations becoming naddin' compared with spoilery stuff of fado.

Obviously eventually there should be a point people can talk freely but with algorithms and foreshortened lifespans of media that time is so short it's almost pointless IMO to stay spoiler free for the MCU. So I'm going the opposite now; screw it. I'm still keen to watch Sam Raimi do the MCU without fretting about who or what appears.

Obviously, goes without saying others may disagree but like I said, Far From Home just made something Switch in my head WRT spoilers.

SuperBowserWorld

Hmmm, sounds tempting, I really like the first 2 Raimi Spiderman movies.

But it looks like I need to do some Disney+ homework to get the most out of the movie.

LessOutragePlz

Saw this today wasn't overly impressed with it, I'd give it a 7/10 the final post credits scene was great!

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119024511#Comment_119024511

Think you're trying to be a bit pedantic there - Cambridge dictionary says "a small but noticeable part in a movie or play, performed by a famous actor", while Collins says 'A cameo is a small role in a play or film which is played by a well-know actor or celebrity'.

The roles that are being called cameos here fall into those definitions

flazio

I'll be honest, I enjoyed No Way Home more.

Had a couple of hours to kill between end of work and the movie so while I was in McDonald's I downloaded the Star Trek: Picard finalé to my phone and watched it before heading in. (It's relevant, trust me)

Bit of advice if you are in the Galway area and all the main cinemas are sold out. Take a chance on imc Oranmore. The 16:40 show today (Friday) had only 10 people in it (including myself). As someone who is still a bit cautious and wary about crowded enclosed spaces this was very welcome for me.

Fred Astaire

An absolutely incoherent mess. Raimi must have boarded this movie with it 95 percent storyboarded because you can barely see the slightest flicker of his style here. About 5 minutes of proper Raimi, probably when Feige was in the toilet one day on set.

Almost every line of dialogue is exposition.

We are constantly told about relationships rather than shown why we should care about them.

I'm struggling to think of a character that has an actual character arc other than Wanda.

The Multiverse concept as presented by Marvel is a complete mess. On one hand Marvel treat the other universes with complete disrespect and allow countless deaths and terrible occurances in those universe as the result of hijinks from our heroes - the aftermath of which is never explored. However occasionally you actually are supposed to care about the other universes - they want to have their cake and eat it.

The movie has frighteningly little connection to the last Doctor Strange. Virtually every character in that movie is abandoned.

Everything is so utterly weightless. The visuals somehow manage to be completely drab, as usual. Marvel have really perfected that TV movie aesthetic

The MCU peaked with Infinity War and it has been one misstep after another since. We have reached a point people act like clappy seals for cameos, where throwing familiar characters on the screen is great and cheered, even if the plot that surrounds those cameos is a steaming pile of dung.

DrumSteve

I can't be the only one who was bored for the majority of this. Felt like it a completely disjointed mess.

Also never heard an audience groan as loudly as when the 2nd end credits scene came on.

Apothic_Red

It was fun but if I'm honest, it should be up against the trade descriptions act.

It's Wanda vs The Multiverse . . . Dr. Strange is a supporting actor.

Olsen was great

Is it just me or does anyone else find Benedict Cumberbatch's American accent painful, its so flat and non descript. I don't think I'd notice if he just had a line here or there but as the lead I really think his accent lends and air of inauthenticity to the character.

Elizabeth Olsen was excellent. I found the film a bit disjointed but her performance saved it

Midnight_EG

I'm a little bit confused about the Multiverse identities...

No Way Home showed us 3 different 'people' as Peter Parker, and I mean literally the person byway of their appearance, but MoM has showed us that everybody else's 'alternate' is the same person/body? Further to that, Loki, the series, gave us Variants which I'm now assuming aren't Multiverse Variants, just Timeline Variants, so is that why they look different?

flazio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119026516#Comment_119026516

To add to that, is the Captain we see here the same Captain we meet in What If or just another variant? Come to think of it, where were the Watchers in all of this?

Agent Coulson

I think a lot of those answers will come in Ant-Man 3.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119026516#Comment_119026516

MOM doesn't show that everyone's alternate is the same person/body, just that those are the different multiverses they went to because even given how America can't control her powers, she's somewhat subconsciously drawn to the Dr.Strange she knows. But there are infinite multiverses with infinite variances. We got Patrick Stewart as Prof.X in this, but chances are in 4-5 years if Marvel decide to do an X-Men film, would Patrick Stewart be too old as he's already starting to really show his age in this one? So we might get a new actor as a younger Prof.X again (a full new cast).

Timeline Variants and multiverse Variants are the same thing. As in Endgame and Loki, if a change is made to the timeline that causes a split and creates a new reality. With Loki though, the variant of Kang needed to keep that one reality he was in on a specific course and keep that timeline in check. If a significant change was made to the universe he was in then the knock-on effect would have meant things could have happened outside his control/calculations.

Ultimately though, it's because they're just pulling from what we know. We got three different versions of Peter of different ages because we already knew them so it wasn't jarring. If Dr.Strange went to another reality in MOM and there was a version of him played by Bruce Campbell, it wouldn't work as well as seeing two versions of the Strange we know facing off. Having Cumberbatch as all the Variants we see in MOM shows where his power and obsessions can lead the version of Strange that we already know.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119026606#Comment_119026606

I take it that it's a probably a different Captain. As for the Watchers, they mostly don't interfere. The Watcher in What If only interfered because Ultron with the infinity stones would have destroyed every reality and so The Watcher interfering to stop it was less of a rule break than Ultron destroying all existence. Wanda in MOM wasn't doing anything on that level.

EoinMcLovin

I'm wondering with all the mentions of incursions , is this how they are going to introduce Mutants and Fantastic Four to the MCU. In the most recent Secret Wars comics Event from 2015, they used it to bring Miles Morales from the Ultimate Universe to Earth 616, they could do the same here.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027351#Comment_119027351

Yeah seems like it could be the next big storyline for the overall MCU, especially if they're bringing in Charlize Theron. It'll also allow them to bring in the likes of X-Men and F4 without doing a big origin story or trying to retcon things.

johnny_ultimate

Mod note: No need for spoiler tags from here on. Proceed with caution if you haven’t seen the film!

Midnight_EG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119026623#Comment_119026623

Christine, Mordo, Wanda and Strange are all the same person based on physical attributes, and so are the other Stranges that we saw. That's where its getting slightly confusing IMO. By that logic, all three Peter Parkers should have been Tom Holland, and so should all of the Lokis have been Tom Hiddleston. I understand that the Variants are not Multiversal, moreso they're just a different reality which would make sense for Spidey but NWH specifically mentions it being a Multiversal event.

Outside of that though, I found it a brilliant watch and I was seriously surprised at how much it pulled me in.

flazio

It was, good. Out of the post end game movies I'd rate it maybe 3rd behind Far from Home and Shang Chi, slightly ahead of Black Widow and well ahead of Eternals. (Not that I think Eternals is the worst of all time, Even Marvel forget about Incredible Hulk)

I knew so little about America Chavez that I thought it was the actor's name, not the character, coming into this. Incidentally I was watching the last episode of Star Trek: Picard before heading in so Patrick Stewart was already at the forefront of my thoughts. I suspect the reason Anson Mount is helmeted as Black Bolt throughout is because he was made up to look like his Christopher Pike for his own Star Trek series Strange New Worlds and the helmet hides all that.

Spon Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119025515#Comment_119025515

Not being pedantic. Just looking for clarification on the definition there seems to be several beside the the you gave. I’ve seen MaGuire and Garfield’s roles in No Way Home called cameos.

The word (like many others) is often used wrong just like remake and reboot.

For myself, the Stan Lee appearances and Bruce Campbell (can’t Raimi just give the man a main role in a movie?) are cameos - which I have always thought of as brief appearances of someone well known for no other reason than a bit of fun that have no consequence to the poly..

The Illuminati matters a great deal to the story so they supporting actors.

Spon Farmer

Anson Mount is a Star Trek looks like Anson Mount. There is nothing to cover up.

I’d imagine the reason for the helmet is to give him the proper costume. I didn’t recognise him at all - even in the close ups I was thinking “it is a pity they didn’t get Anson Mount - I wonder how he feels seeing Cox, Stewart and the Sony Spider-Man gang get into these movies but not him” :p

The Incredible Hulk is a great movie. I know a lot of people say they don’t like it but I’ve yet to hear why?

Spon Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027659#Comment_119027659

The MaGuire and Garfield Parkers are also older than the Holland Parker.

There are so many worlds in the Multiverse that there must be billions of combinations relationships, marriages, parentages, etc.

Spon Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027482#Comment_119027482

No retcons would be needed for a Fantastic Four origin movie. Just becasue the group got their powers years ago on that world doesn’t mess it has to be the same on 616

Mutants are a problem. I don’t see anyway in which mutants X-Men exist in 616 - they need the involvement in history plus regular people fear/hate mutants but adore other superpowers beings? It makes no sense in the comics either.

Brief_Lives

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027907#Comment_119027907

I hear what you are saying... but, even before Disney got back the Marvel characters, there was a plan in place to introduce them.

JP Liz V1

It's looks to be cleaning up at the box office, another Marvel hit

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027907#Comment_119027907

I agree about F4, I was more thinking no need to have to do an origin for them, and no need to have to do retcon for Xmen.

pjohnson

The whole "Dawn of X" era only started after the Fox/Disney merger so I wouldn't be surprised if the MCU just used Krakoa in a similar way to how they used Wakanda in order to get mutants up and running easily.

Spon Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119028209#Comment_119028209

Regardless of how long this Illuminati encounter was planned I think having Fantastic Four not be from 616 would be unnecessarily complicated. Having them exist in an alternate Earth cuts them of from easy crossovers. Why have them move to 616 when it is easier that they have their origin post-Madness.

Mutants can only exist elsewhere other than 616 and they while prejudice element wouldn’t make sense.

Spon Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119028647#Comment_119028647

Why do you thing a fantastic Four origin isn’t necessary?

I think a story showing how they adjust to their powers would be fun.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119028754#Comment_119028754

Mutants are definitely an easier fit than the Fantastic Four.

The supposed prejudice problem was always overblown.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119028764#Comment_119028764

Same reason we didn't need one for Spider-Man, they're some of the biggest Marvel characters and most people know their origin (it's been done in two movies now). Marvel has also avoided origin stories for the likes of Black Panther and Captain Marvel (and Moon Knight) where we first see them already having their powers and then get some backstory info rather than having an origin story.

The first Doctor Strange, Shang-Chi, Eternals... origin stories are worthwhile because they're introductions to new aspects of the MCU (magic, mystics, Eternals) and somewhat lesser-known characters. But we don't need that with F4.

Don't get me wrong, if they have the right story to make it worthwhile, absolutely go for it. But for a property like F4, an origin story at this stage probably isn't necessary imo.

Spon Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119028777#Comment_119028777

you are very wrong there.

Fantastic Four can be dropped into the MCU very easily.

Mutants not an easy fit at all - how do they suddenly appear all at once? If they’ve been on 616 the whole time why haven’t they come to the attention of S.H.I.E.L.D. or the Avengers?

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119029338#Comment_119029338

Thats where the idea of using Krakoa like Wakanda as a mutant homeland and a rough version of "Dawn of X" as a origin comes in.

Spon Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119028817#Comment_119028817

“Everyone” knows the origin of Spider-Man and Batman. They are both bigger than the movies and comics and you can have a movie that skips showing it.

Fantastic Four are not as big as them and I don’t think you can just drop them into the MCU like Spider-Man without showing how they get created.

I think the MCU should introduce Latveria and Doctor Doom before a Fantastic Four movie. Have the country involved in a couple of movies first.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119029395#Comment_119029395

Like I said, Black Panther, Cap.Marvel and Moon Knight didn't have true origin stories and are far less well known with much weirder origins. Even with Ant-Man we got Scott's origin story but Hank was already Ant-Man before that and we didn't get or need an origin story for him.

I think it's a case of having trust in the audience. That unless there's a reason why an origin story is needed, they can just jump into a story where the heroes already have their powers, provide whatever context/backstory is needed through exposition or flashbacks, and trust that the audience can follow it.

Anyway, agree to disagree. Like I said if there's a decent story reason for it (tying into the villain or setting up something big), then by all means. But I don't think we need an origin story for them.

santana75

Just couldn't get into this. Started off well but I found my attention drifting and by the final act I had lost interest completely. Its a credit to the fine actor benedict cumberbatch is that he can sprout some very ropey dialogue and not look foolish. I suspect that you'd have to have seen Wanda vision in order to understand everything going on here because there were references that went completely over my head that seemed crucial to the plot. Emily blunt made a comment recently about Marvel fatigue and I definitely felt that with this film.

B.A._Baracus

Saw it earlier and enjoyed it. Starts out alright but ends good if that makes sense.

It is basically The Evil Dead crossed with Marvel.

Spon Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119029381#Comment_119029381

But then wouldn’t Marvel lose the potential of stories going back decades if they all live on a secret island? Stories like the did with First Class, etc.

Spon Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119029476#Comment_119029476

I thought you meant just start off with a Fantastic Four story with no explanation of the origin at all - doing it like Captain Marvel and Moon Knight where the origin is dealt with is what I was trying to suggest but I didn’t explain myself properly.

Another option is to have the incident in space be part of another movie - for example in Ms. Marvel in there is great publicity around Richards and the team are in space in newspapers and on TV in the background - perhaps broadcasting to Earth schools about their experiments when the accident occurs. Or maybe Captain Marvel saves them during The Marvels and we see them taken to hospital.

and Latvaria should start being mentioned in movies and shows too before Doctor Doom appears.

jo187

It been established that fantastic four has already happened in the MCU.

Strange says to Reed didn't you guys get lost in space? Or something to that effect.

So either the FF have gotten there powers and been living in space and come back to earth for some reason...like a guy with a big purple head.

Or the ship comes back to mcu earth and due to time moving different where ever they were, what was only a few hours for them, has been years for us. So they have to struggle with new powers and being out of time.

Seems the most likely options.

The White Wolf

I was looking forward to this as there were a lot of aspects that had my interest, from Wanda to Raimi....but I left just thinking it was good to ok. Maybe my hopes were too high after NWH.

Is it just me or did the 838 universe come across as the worst version of themselves? To see such iconic characters, as a unit, get dismissed so easily was just a strange decision. And as I said, I say that as a fan of Wanda and I have been waiting to see her powers get their due. Just seemed to across as a **** it, we're not using these actors again so who cares.

Spon Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119030721#Comment_119030721

no Strange doesn’t mention space, he says something about the 70s like “bet you would have been big in the 70s - a nod to the popularity of the team and quip about the “silly name”.

There were no superheroes known to the public prior to Iron Man.

Why go the convoluted path of having them lost in space for 50 years for no reason when they can easily be added to the roster of heroes by having them become super powered in here and now.

jo187

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119031241#Comment_119031241

I have only seen it once but that was definitely not what strange said. He mentioned something about space and there ship being lost.

There weren't superheroes when there ship went into space they got there powers up there.

Superheroes existed in the MCU before Iron Man. Of course this was all added post Iron man but it's been established since.

Spon Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119031680#Comment_119031680

I didn’t say superheroes didn’t exist.

I said that the public didn’t know about them.

The original Ant-Man and Wasp were secrets, no one knew about Captain Marvel except for limited number of people who kept her secret, etc.

I’ve only seen the film once too and Strange doesn’t say anything about being lost in space. I was wrong myself though - I’ve been told Strange said “the poo group from the 60s/70s” (decade is unclear)

jo187

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119031926#Comment_119031926

Captain America was a superhero and everyone knew about him. The hulk film came out before Iron Man as well.

Midnight_EG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119031926#Comment_119031926

The lost in space quote is from WandaVision, its said to Maria when she comes back to SHIELD

Spon Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119031952#Comment_119031952

Did the public know about Cap?

He did war bond campaigns and such but didn’t people just think he was an entertainer? I thought the missions against Hydra were secret.

Hulk wasn’t a hero until until the battle of Manhattan. Before that Weren’t S.H.I.E.L.D. covering up his existence? The only times he had been seen out in public were the two fights in the movie and the information was suppressed to make those who talked about seem crazy. I thought Black Widow said that to Banner along with how S.H.I.E.L.D. kept putting Ross off his back.

I’m open to correction on these but in this film Strange doesn’t know the Fantastic Four as a group of astronauts lost in space. He mocks the name.

On Earth 838 the Fantastic Four have been around for years. On Earth 616 they are still human and Strange has never heard of Reed Richards.

Spon Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032024#Comment_119032024

You think Jo187 is mixing the two up?

Maybe binged WandaVision before the film?

I’d mix the things up myself if I binged a series - I’m episode a week person. Maybe two a week sometimes but days apart.

jo187

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032041#Comment_119032041

People like agent coulson worshipped Cap, he died a hero, I think people knew he was a super hero otherwise why would he be such a big deal?

I guess the hulk stuff might have been suppressed. It's one of those things when you retroactively add things to the world not everything going to stay straight.

I might have mixed up the wandavision stuff and strange stuff.

I dont think we have met 616 reed yet so the lost in time/space could pan out. I rather they have there powers for a while and get on with it, instead of another origin story.