BoJo banished - Liz Truss down. Is Rishi next for the toaster? **threadbans in OP**

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118307456#Comment_118307456

You think that strong countries should have psychopathic leaders?

ooookaay

You then say that these types of leaders will do what the 'Majority wants'

Why do you believe this? Narcissists and psychopaths do exactly what they think benefits them personally, and they manipulate others to act in their interests.

I find your faith in the leadership skills of psychopaths to be quite unsettling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118307582#Comment_118307582

I don't mean "psychopath" in the commonly believed "mass murder", Hollywood view - but rather in the clinical sense of someone who, yes, acts in their own interests, but who knows what to do to achieve that (i.e. populism).

But powerful countries will always attract leaders with what are called psychopathic qualities.

To boil it down, would we rather have Tony Blair or Theresa May in power?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118307582#Comment_118307582

Yep, I like a human being with a fair chunk of altruism to be my country’s leader tbh.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118307599#Comment_118307599

I didn't think you meant it in the mass murderer sense either. Psychopaths are not always violent, but a common trait is that they are very good at manipulating others to get them to do what they want them to do to further their own personal interests

Psychopathic leaders will manipulate public interests to further their own private interests if those interests are not exactly aligned.

The problem with the UK, is that the interests of the public, and the interests of the ruling classes are very far from aligned. And to remain as prime minister, a psychopath doesn't need majority support, they need the support of a small number of very influential people, who can be brought onside by pandering to those interests.

We have seen in the Johnson administration, that he is fully prepared to lie to everyone constantly, to use public resources to bolster those lies, and to sacrifice millions of people's livelihoods as long as he can maintain just enough support to maintain his access to power.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118307626#Comment_118307626

Of course lying is common in the Johnson Administration.

But that's the point I'm making. It wouldn't make a difference who is in charge, they all lie - to some degree or other, to maintain power.

Once we accept that deception, psychopathy, and narcissism are unavoidable factors in the politics of large and important countries, we have to decide who is the least worst option.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118307643#Comment_118307643

Both sides. Again.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118307557#Comment_118307557

Even here, this would be resigning material. The days when we looked at the UK as somewhre where politicians resigned compared to brazening it out here are long since over.

farmerval

One of the defining characteristics of Psychopath's is their ability to convince people that they need that their goals are aligned, that they are committed to achieving the same things, that they're in this together. Then when a different goal appears they drop their former partners without a backward glance.

They seek out and flatter those they can use for their own benefit. The problems accumulate as they continually leave the people that believed they were partner with behind, leaving broken promises and betrayed former colleagues behind.

I believe Johnson is part psychopath and part psychopathic liar all wrapped up in an extremely callous and calculating person.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118307683#Comment_118307683

I've actually been on the receiving end of quite a lot of that, so I can certainly relate.

But we also cannot deny that these kinds of psychopathic traits, which Johnson and others undeniably possess, won't disappear if Johnson is to go.

It's part of the political system of large countries that those with these kinds of trait rise to the top - irrespective of whether we're talking Left or Right.

More controversy about Boris now, looks like he was ran a quiz last year in 10 Downing Street. I wonder will any of this stick.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118308010#Comment_118308010

I think it will. His own backbenchers seem quite keen on this bloated tumour being excised as they know their chances at the next election are being trashed on a near daily basis now.

rossie1977

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118307456#Comment_118307456

I think you would have fit in well back in the Europe of the 30s...

Populism is a sham, plain and simple. We have extremely rich, narcissistic individuals claiming the know what's best for the 'working class'.

In a democracy the government is meant to represent the people not the leader ruling like a king.

Tony EH

People like Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson don't care. They don't have to care. They don't reside in the same world as anybody on this thread. They don't even reside in the same world as the vast majority of their "subjects".

We're talking about someone that's been groomed for power in some form or another since he was at Eton. While perhaps not automatically destined for the highest office in the land, he's nevertheless an Oxbridge educated article that was always assumed a political position of some description, completely irrespective of his ability. So his outlook on life is vastly different to the greater percentage of people both in Britain and outside of it.

He found himself as PM due to circumstances, more than likely, but it's doubtful that he really gives that much of a crap about the role. But he doesn't have to and if he was deposed in the morning, he'd just retreat into whatever shade of political role he can and continue on as normal regardless of the shambles that his dog and pony show premiership resulted in.

It's all just an amusing game to people like Johnson, because there's nothing riding on it for him to be truly worried about.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118293484#Comment_118293484

Labour is dead. Destroyed by infighting weak stances. Kier Starmer is a bloody joke.

There is also a very real reluctance to be responsible to try and deliver a Tory Brexit too and I cannot really blame them for that. The Tories dragged the country into the disaster that is Brexit and they didn't have the first clue on how to plan it out, resulting in the absolute shambles that we see today. Frankly, I'd be loath myself to step into the shoes that's responsible to try and dig the country out of that situation.

Yurt2

One of the biggest Borisisms that always stuck in my craw is "levelling up". Heavens, there's even a Secretary of State for Levelling Up (yes that's their title).

On initial inspection, it appears to be about building stuff in places that don't nice have nice stuff. A kind of low-resolution regional development strategy. What's not to like? So why not just call it regional development like any sane person would?

Aha, that's the beauty of levelling up, it's regional development without 'tall poppy syndrome' (Boris' words). Basically, it's a patronising 'helping hand' to the provinces to outwardly signal they give a hoot about places that have been suffering economically since Thatcher, but London and the Home Counties won't be handing over any more loot than they have to. Kind of like slippery arguments against higher income tax on billionaires writ large.

Studies have shown that besides the blue riband projects like HS2, the 'levelling up' funds have been going disproportionately to Tory-controlled constituencies and electoral swing constituencies, and in-particular, vulnerable Lib Dem seats that Tories are targetting are getting 3 times the amount of funding per head than (typically poorer) safe Labour-held constituencies.

Cynical, pork barrel, self-dealing, and grotty. And this is central to Boris' platform btw.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118312308#Comment_118312308

The difference between the EU's RDF and "leveling up" is RDF actually went to the poorest areas of the UK and not to the areas that won local parties the most votes.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118308291#Comment_118308291

Yet it has been completely forgotten.

Boris will survive this sideshow.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118307233#Comment_118307233

they aren't though. that's just more "Angry Leftie bullshit".

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118307560#Comment_118307560

lots of anger in this thread.

Levelling up is what people want to see, as opposed to "Tax the rich and give it to the poor" ideology the opposition offer.

When I say what the opposition offer, we don't actually know what they offer, because all we hear is the angry leftie gob shite that is their deputy leader.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118313579#Comment_118313579

What are you basing this on?

rossie1977

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118313723#Comment_118313723

Levelling up is an old Thatcher saying from the 1970s and we all saw how well Thatcher helped the more disadvantaged areas of the UK during her time as PM..

Johnson and the Tories like to issue 'buzzwords' but you always judge politicians based on their actions and the Tories have slashed 15 billion for the budgets of local councils over past decade https://www.local.gov.uk/about/news/fragmented-short-term-government-grants-poor-value-money-councils-warn

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118313967#Comment_118313967

Conservatives have proven time and again that **** down criticism is much more important to them than the welfare of the British people. Levelling up is and always was a scam. At best, it will partly mitigate a small fraction of the devastation the Tories have wrought on this country.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118313967#Comment_118313967

you mean like attracting companies like Nissan to Sunderland, Toyota to Derby, Sony and Panasonic to South Wales?

Hell, I lost my job in the late 80s because there were government grants to move to Mid Lothian which my company took advantage of

Most of the people who criticise thatcher weren't even a stir in their fathers groin when she was in power.

O'Neill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118313761#Comment_118313761

Actually I think you'll find some Tories themselves hating Johnson also, it's not just the 'hard left.'

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314033#Comment_118314033

I'm guessing it wasn't Tory backbenchers who sent me a link to petition to call for the investigation of the Metropolitan police, for facilitating the party at 10 Downing street.

That was probably another just angry leftie.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118313723#Comment_118313723

'Levelling up' is not what people want. 'Levelling up' is what you do in a video game by grinding out experience

What people want is investment in infrastructure and the opportunities to be able to make positive life choices

The EU have poured billions into regional development and targeted the development at the areas that needed it the most. The EU knows that investing in the less developed parts of the EU will have long term benefits. The Tories don't have this foresight, they see the exchequer as their own slush fund that they can use to buy votes and funnel money to donors and croneys

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118313739#Comment_118313739

Johnson has to get through PMQs this week which will be an absolute sh1tshow for him, or else he may try to avoid it, and be called out for the coward that he is.

He has a byelection the day after where an extremely safe Tory seat is in play. Will tory voters stay at home out of anger at Johnson? Maybe they will. Lib Dems are polling ahead of the Tories according to some polls, Losing that seat could result in a full scale revolt from MPs worried about their own seats with Johnson at the helm

He is also struggling really badly getting his 'plan b' through parliament with dozens of his own party voting against it, and other MPs refusing to say that they have confidence in him

He has the booster program as political cover, but the problem is, anything that focuses on Covid restrictions will remind the public that he is an utter hypocrite and has lied repeatedly about those christmas parties

JupiterKid

Bojo is in deep trouble at this stage - and rightly so.

Johnson has been the most inept, incompetent, inarticulate Prime Minister the UK has seen for a long, long time. He has had everything in his life handed to him on a silver platter and he still manages to royally f*ck things up.

Actually, the fact that he's not had to work his arse off for years and years to get where he is today is probably the reason why he's completely incompetent at the top job. As the saying goes "easy come, easy go."

The Conservatives in the UK do not care one whit about the well-being of the country or the economy - and certainly not those tossed on the scrap heap of deprivation and welfare dependency in regions decimated by economic restructuring who were sold a pack of lies about Brexit.

All they care about is feathering their own nests and protecting their very wealthy donors and cronies who pushed for Brexit to ensure that the City of London remains a major conduit of global money laundering without any EU scrutiny.

The Tories aren't called the Nasty Party for nothing.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314135#Comment_118314135

Levelling up is not what the hard left want, because without poor under privilaged people relying on handouts, the champagne socialists at the top don't have a support base.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314188#Comment_118314188

I don't think the by-election is terribly relevant. Voters aren't choosing the next government so who wins isn't all that important and this is likely to prove a nominal benefit to the Lib Dems.

What's going to make or break him is Christmas. His indulging of his own desires while the rest of us make sacrifices is a hideous look. If we get a repeat of last year's fiasco on top of the footage of them making fun of us, that's him done. David Cameron managed to detoxify the party to some degree and Johnson has singularly undone that in a few months.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314247#Comment_118314247

there is a reason why the pro remain vote in London was stronger than anywhere else in the UK and that is because the City of London, in general, did not want to leave the EU.

Sadly a lot of people in England see Boris as Mr Brexit and believe the conservatives are world leaders in vaccine roll out. That’s enough for their continued support.

I don’t think they will lose this by election either which will be a boost for him under the circumstances. He will be ousted eventually but has a while to go yet imo.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314033#Comment_118314033

I wouldn't even bother with this lad in fairness. He will say anything to back up "his side" including defending Anne Widdecombes homophobia, comparing Rashford to paedophiles and defending Farage's belief that refugees are not people

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314294#Comment_118314294

The City of London would be fairly far back in the minds of most people living in London. It's a reason but there would be many more above it

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118313967#Comment_118313967

There's other tricks too to defund regions Wales is subsidising HS2 even though though at it's closest Crewe is 50km from North Wales or an hour by public transport.

Westminster Government has classified the project as benefitting England and Wales, while Scotland and Northern Ireland both receive full Barnett payments for HS2. ... it means Wales won’t receive full Barnett consequential payments and will lose out on £5 billion of funding.

Boris has a majority of 80* and who controls the allocation of the safe seats ?

*And could still buy DUP votes. Or offer independence to Scotland. And there's no election due for years.

A week is a long time in politics. I think it's very unlikely but UK politics is so cynical that I wouldn't be surprised if we find out years later that the birth was brought forward.

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314250#Comment_118314250

Getting rich people richer is not what the Tories want, as if they make people more money then they lose their support base!

What utter nonsense. If the 'left' raise people up then those people will vote for the people that helped them.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314250#Comment_118314250

The hard left may or may not rely on a downtrodden underclass as their political base, but that's irrelevant because there basically is no hard left in UK politics at the moment, regardless of how often you keep using those words

The Socialist party have zero MPs and only fielded 2 candidates in the last general election

There are a number of centre left parties in the UK, and a few extremely right wing parties but no hard left parties have any electoral success or political support

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314266#Comment_118314266

The By-election won't affect the makeup of the parliament by much, but if a Tory safe seat is lost because of Johnson, then his only reason d'etre is lost.

The Tories only accept Johnson's shenanigans because he wins elections. As soon as this stops being true, his days are numbered

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314490#Comment_118314490

There's the Greens but the electoral system debilitates any party outside the big two.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314449#Comment_118314449

nah, the hard left just run on being angry little lefties and hating people who got off their arses and made something of their lives

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314490#Comment_118314490

The British public may have firmly rejected Corbyn and his Trotskyites, but as his mate once said, "They haven't gone away you know".

If they had, Angela Raynor would not be deputy leader and shouting her gob off on national TV every two minutes.

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314532#Comment_118314532

So a completely different argument!

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314344#Comment_118314344

His downfall will be slow, much like Brexit, a death by a thousand cuts.

He's Mr Brexit - he got Brexit done - yet himself and Frost have been loudly calling to renegotiate entire sections of the deal. Why do you have to renegotiate something you got done so soon? Maybe he hasn't gotten Brexit done after all? Maybe he did an absolutely diabolical job at it?

Then there's the world beating vaccine rollout - what's it all for at the end of the day? Many of their European neighbours have caught up or overtaken the UK in vaccination uptake. Yet, where has it gotten them? Into yet another lockdown just like most of it's neighbours.

OK, so they opened first and stayed open longest during the Summer - yet their economy showed growth that is in fractions of percent, so did it actually really benefit them at all?

Then start to look at his personal adherence and the adherence of some of his party colleague to the very rules they brought in to try and curb Covid - holding parties and mass gatherings, wandering around hospitals shaking hands, sitting in crowded places without a mask nor being socially distant.

He claimed he had no idea where his flat refurb was funded from, yet was found to have been in very clear communication with a supposed fund organiser...

Then there's the wider Tory sleaze accusations...

Eventually it will all start to pile up and people will begin questioning whether he is that lovable rogue who tells a few fibs here and there or maybe he's actually an out and out lying charlatan.

FutureGuy

Of course he's not toast. People don't care enough except to have a whine of social media before going back to watching season two of whatever it is they are watching.

TheWonderLlama

Media: "Oh, this will do for Boris. Let's see him whiffle his way out of this."

Boris whiffles his way out of the latest mess with ease.

Media: "Ah well, nevertheless."

Repeat ad nauseum.

Yurt2

It's mad how some people can't trace the direct line between Thatcher's grip on the Tory movement*, the deliberate managed decline of vast swathes of the country and the Brexit calamity.

*I'm surprised she's not embalmed in and put on display on whatever the Tory equivalent of the Kremlin walls are such is the feverish adherence to her ideology in some quarters.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314656#Comment_118314656

Precisely this.

It will blow over once the Omicron wave has subsided and society fully re-opens.

That political slab of concrete, Keir Starmer, might groan about it for a couple of weeks, but eventually it will lose steam.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118315084#Comment_118315084

When I was a callow young man living in Manchester at the time of her death, I was a bit shocked about people dancing on the streets, celebrating her death. In hindsight, I'm surprised that said celebrations were so muted after what she did to most of this country.

That said, I will give credit where credit is due. She completely transformed her party and pushed through a radical agenda against great difficulty. Johnson has no interest in anything except writing atrocious books and producing illegitimate children. He hasn't a shred of virtue whatsoever. I can see why people admire Thatcher. In some ways at least, she was the Iron lady. Johnson's just a syphilitic skillet.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118305726#Comment_118305726

Leadership comes from the top, it’s about setting standards and examples, that you will live up to, not demanding others do something that you are not prepared to do yourself .. it’s about possessing good judgement to do the right thing...setting EXAMPLES.

Boris... setting low standards and failing to meet them...

He’s a complete throwback to the Tories of the ‘80’s and ‘90’s...

not in a good way.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314135#Comment_118314135

The UK was a significant net contributer to the EU budget.

What you are really saying is the EU gave back to the UK some of the money given to them by the UK exchequer.

How generous.