Should we in Ireland be concerned about Jihad?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118466552#Comment_118466552

The Islamic state formally declared war on Ireland. She is a soldier and a member of the Islamic state. Enemy combatant. Therefore can be treated as a prisoner of war and held in military prison until hostilities end.

WrenBoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118469535#Comment_118469535

I'd agree that she shouldn't ever be free in Ireland, but trouble is where do we send her ? No other country wants her and who'd blame them. So apart from throwing her off a ship in international waters we are stuck with the trash.

Relax brah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118473160#Comment_118473160

we put her in prison, it’s the only option now that she is back.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118473160#Comment_118473160

Where do we send her?

We use the law and order that we live our lives by in this country and put her on trial for her offences.

WrenBoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118473900#Comment_118473900

And leave her there

WrenBoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118473957#Comment_118473957

Cheers for that, what exactly are you responding to ?

Glock17

Tbh, Western democracies just dont have the tools to deal with islamic terrorism...

The security services know a lot about who the extremists are.... however that doesnt mean you can put these people on trial. Do you really want to expose who your undercover spies are in a court of law?

In Israel, extremists are put in front of a military court where a military officer decides if someone is guilty, there is no jury.... it's something I think we will have to do eventually...

What an absolute mess mass immigration has been for europe...

Members of the national surveillance unit are afforded anonymity in court

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118475905#Comment_118475905

So you'd support a murderous aggressive regime, bypassing the courts and metering out 'justice'? What would you be protecting us from exactly?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118476331#Comment_118476331

Dunno why we'd have to jump to that extreme (although Israel tends to reflect the attitudes of most of the M.East in terms of justice).

I think the point is more that we can continue to extend all rights to terrorists/extremists, and get nothing resolved.. or we can suspend various rights that should be available to normal people, but are given up by those who engage in such violence. And so, providing the governments with the ability to deal with such people, and reducing the damage done over time (as opposed to catch and release of those involved)

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118476635#Comment_118476635

Chicken and egg. How do you know who to treat differently until you know what they are guilty of and how do you find that out?

Look at Guantánamo Bay. Many locked up for years, no trial, eventually found innocent. Some drug dealer driving a BMW while collecting welfare is simpler.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118476758#Comment_118476758

Yeah, but once more you're jumping to an extreme. Guantanamo Bay was operated by the military initially as a black operation backed by intelligence forces (from Sept 11th onwards), and sought to bypass their own "domestic" laws in the process.

There is a lot of space to be somewhere in the middle.

The problem with these kind of discussions is that people fly to the extremes. Suggest the removal of rights for terrorists/extremists, and the attitude swings to the most polar opposite of it in objection. The fact of the matter is that treating these people the same as normal people (protecting their supposed rights) hasn't worked. It's been tried to death, and it's gotten us nowhere, except for the fools who jump to the opposite side, by removing all rights and doing worse in the process.

Aim for something in the middle.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118477175#Comment_118477175

Not once again. Initially I was commenting on another posters suggestion we do what the Israeli's do.

I'm just showing if you take away people's rights, before you know if they are culprits or not, you are bound to make mistakes.

Round up Muslims and then see if they are extremist?

The whole guerilla tactic is because it's so tough to counter. Or you could play to ISIS and start treating Muslims like criminals increasing their base.

It's certainly a tough one.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118477225#Comment_118477225

Mistakes happen regardless of what system you have in place. That's a fact of life. You can have all the evidence you need, in the most moral and careful of justice systems, and people will still be convicted incorrectly. No system is perfect...

I wouldn't favor the rounding up of all muslims, since that wouldn't solve anything. But then, even the Israeli's don't do that.

haha.. increasing their base? They don't need anyone to help them do that. They're both a religious group, and a cultural one. They've got centuries of history to draw upon, the behavior of colonial or American actions abroad, the jealousy of the lives living in developed nations vs their own hard lives, etc. There's no shortage of reasons to convince someone to join their ranks. Giving them more reasons isn't going to change much.. although simply rounding up Muslims would help... but i don't think it would help that much, all things considered.

I've spent time travelling through both Israel and the M.East, and its a different world. They hold on to grudges like nobody else... and playing the soft game isn't going to engineer any kind of forgiveness. Strength is gauged by other behaviors there.

Honestly, I think Europeans should start treating this as a war... because those groups in the M.East have never stopped considering it as a war. Oh, and they don't see much difference between an American, an Israeli, a British person, or an Irish person. We're all responsible.. and we're all viable targets to them.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118477307#Comment_118477307

How do we proceed to treat unknown adversaries like an invading army?

I Blame Sheeple

@[Deleted User] "Honestly, I think Europeans should start treating this as a war... because those groups in the M.East have never stopped considering it as a war. Oh, and they don't see much difference between an American, an Israeli, a British person, or an Irish person. We're all responsible.. and we're all viable targets to them."

With that in mind, would you agree that it would just be easier to shoot her in the head and dump her body in the ocean? I think it's a viable option for any terrorist and I also think it's ''somewhere in the middle'' too considering we wouldn't film the execution or torture them on camera for publicity beforehand.

ISIS did and do treat any enemy of their ideology like a piece of meat strung up for their entertainment. We should remember that.

Glock17

Before Europe developed guns etc the Muslim world would invade europe and take Europeans as slaves. Muslim invaders raided places like the UK and Ireland etc.

The word "slave" actually derives from the slavic people in europe (think YugoSLAVia). So many slavic people were taken as slaves that the name stuck.

It's a part of history that has largely been airbrushed from history.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118478676#Comment_118478676

Europe was in bad order at the time. in the century before the 1st crusade, c 3 million were enslaved and carted off by muslim raiders(some of these raids could involve thousands of soldiers). a similar amount were enslaved by Vikings, many finding their way to the Slave Markets in central asia(via the overland routes through Russia). Europe at the time was very divided, effectively warring fiefdoms, that didn;t have the individual strenght to stand up to the raids.

The 1st Crusade, ended this trade in two ways, all the troublemaking knights/soldiers, went on the crusade(promised eternal salvation for their many sins), so all the local disputes stopped, and the Church led the civil administration(leading to a regional response rather than local response to organised raiding), raised local militias and co-ordinated where the knights/local barons didnt.

It wasn't guns at all

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118478629#Comment_118478629

Sure. I do agree that it would be easier.Although I wouldn't consider it to be somewhere in the middle. It's another extreme reaction.

I'd see a variety of options, although I do feel that everyone should be able to attempt to prove their innocence in a fair court of law. However, should a guilty verdict showing that persons involvement in such an organisation, then they could be deported to a country that suffered attacks by that organisation, allowing them to deal with them the way they normally do. If that's killing them, as they often do in the M.East, fine. If they're proven to have committed terrorist attacks in European nations, then I'd be very much in favor of applying the death penalty... without the endless appeals that tends to go with modern justice systems.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118477392#Comment_118477392

This isn't rocket science. Countries have been dealing with Terrorism/Guerrilla style warfare for well over a century now. Identification of those involved is very possible these days through the use of surveillance and intelligence operations. It's not very different to dealing with infiltration forces before an invasion occurs, which is a tactic that has been used for many years by conventional forces. The use of special forces ahead of the main conventional forces to deal with predetermined targets... and the reaction by the target nation to find and destroy those special forces units. It's scarcely different with dealing with terrorists.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118477175#Comment_118477175

Guantanamo Bay had to be the single best recruiting base for Isis / Al-Qaeda et all. Repeating that will most likely have the same results. I think that a start might be made even at this late stage to become much more selective on who we allow into the Country. For a lot of EU country's, its all ready too late, Islam has become established, and as their Nrs increase , so will their influence. Death of Democracy, a kind of suicide if you like.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118478925#Comment_118478925

Ahh well, I'd say that past events have caused enough momentum for them to continue without any further force being applied.

You've been to the M.East, and are familiar with the way many people think there. I've been involved in conversations where people referenced the crusades, not as a historical reference, but as a justification for "resistance" to westerners. Admittedly, these were very watered down conversations, but I've seen translated narratives which weren't watered down, listing a host of offenses throughout history to justify their beliefs, and promoting those beliefs to others. As with many poor/underdeveloped regions, people hold on to their grudges, and pass them on to the next generation.

And yes, I agree completely. We should be very careful of increasing the general populations of Muslims in Europe. As populations increase, the demand for Islamic cultural norms are enforced on all Muslims in that region, and later, extended to non-Muslims.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118473900#Comment_118473900

Yes. she will have a trial, as per western ( and not sharia ) law. If found guilty she will be sentenced according to Irish Law. The worrying thing about this is under Irish Law, can she be found guilty? Jihadism was not around when Irish Laws were being drafted, but maybe by now it has been updated to reflect the changing world we live in.

jmreire

I Blame Sheeple

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118478898#Comment_118478898

But you said Europeans should treat this as a war and in war, people die. Enemy combatants get killed. Be it by lethal injection 5 years after the conflict or by artillery 5 minutes into the battle, they will still die so how is a humane execution not a 'down the middle' reaction? It's certainly not extreme.

I think tying up your prisoners in a car then firing an RPG into it is extreme.. Or molding plastic explosives to a line of prisoners necks and detonating it in the hopes of decapitating them? This is what we're dealing with so why would we swing back with oven mitts on?

I think anybody fighting that section of religious extremism should operate under a general rule of thumb; no prisoners regardless of age or gender. Treat others how you expect to be treated is something these particular terrorists should have learned before they made snuff films for the victim's families to watch. I believe my ideas will help to stop inciting generations of Muslims to want to fight. The more public trials and year long debacles over terrorists in custody just gives recruiters more ammunition.

jmreire

No, the last thing we want is to become Monsters exactly like the Jihadi's..They are still milking the Crusades for their propaganda, never mind Guantanamo. Either leave them to their fate in Syria / Iraq etc. or bring them back to their home Country's and try them their existing laws. This has happened already in Germany where some jihadi's are imprisoned, and done under existing German law too. I just hope that Irish law will be up to the task....as far as I know, her legal team has already applied for all charges to be dismissed, however that will go?

I Blame Sheeple

I'm probably a minority but I genuinely think the countries who wage war in these parts of the world should either go balls to the wall and actually conquer the place or just get out now. They've already caused irreparable damage and fighting the war with a proxy or a private military company isn't the answer. I also genuinely believe we're way past being branded as monsters. We're all monsters. Them and us. We bomb their children, they bomb ours. That already makes us as bad as them so why try and fight with one foot on the mat?

Edit: Even as I read that back I can see how hopeless my position is. It will never end, Islamic extremism or super powers fighting it because it keeps countries economies afloat.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118480241#Comment_118480241

Well she has been charged under Irish law, so we will see how that goes.

You can go into irishstatutebook.ie and read any legislation.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118480271#Comment_118480271

Of course it's extreme. What you describe hasn't been considered acceptable since WW2, which is why there's been a wide variety of international laws implemented to regulate the treatment of enemy combatants.

Completely giving up the core elements of justice accepted within Western societies (and has been part of those societies for well over a century) is an extreme reaction. Executing prisoners without trial is an extreme... and it should be considered as such.

No. I don't believe we need to get down to their level of behavior, in order to react effectively to the threat. However, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't suspend or dismiss certain rights that are available to the normal person, in order to deal with extremists/terrorists who have been proven to be responsible for the crimes committed.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118480396#Comment_118480396

Personally, I think she should be deported and let the nations who were attacked by her organisation deal with her. We're obviously not equipped to deal with a situation such as this... and there's some justice in allowing the victims of her behavior/allegiance have direct access to her.