Should we in Ireland be concerned about Jihad?

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118186092#Comment_118186092

If there were no radical Islamic attacks, we can say with absolute certainty there would not be any islamophobia. One of the definitions of a phobia is an unfounded and irrational fear of something, in this case Islam. But what happens when the fear is well founded, as in the recent case of the bombing in Liverpool? Does that make Liverpool ( and many other places ) people "Islamophobic" when they criticize Islam?

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118186198#Comment_118186198

At least you admit it is a partial definition you are using, unlike others on the thread.

We can in no way say with absolute certainty that if there was no islamic terrorism there would be no islamaphobia. That is quite simply fallacious reasoning jmreire.

For example there is no Jewish terrorism but there is still significant antisemitism in the world.

So no your assumption doesn't really work when given even the slightest consideration.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118186021#Comment_118186021

The possibility of such an attack in Ireland is the subject of this thread. There have many serious earthquakes in the world over the last century and there will be many more over the century to come. That doesn't mean one is likely in Ireland.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118185390#Comment_118185390

Well... I look at it this way. Throughout Europe, the vast majority of Jihad related attacks have been individuals or with relatively small effect/few casualties. i'd be of the mind that if they were serious about attacking Europe or Ireland, then we'd be seeing explosions hitting population centers over a month period or more, until they were countered. Perhaps a few chemical or biological bombs going off..

And.. as for the reference to the pandemic, I consider the reaction by governments to be way out of proportion. People die all the time, but now the attitude is that the whole country or continent needs to shut down over something that has caused relatively few deaths. Even in the US where they've been pretty haphazard in how they've responded, the deaths have been low considering the overall population. I've seen little to show that the quarantine or the reactions by western governments has been all that effective.... which connects to the threat of Islamic terrorism. A few people die.. it's horrible, but it's not grounds to leap to extremes, considering more people die to "normal" violent crimes, and both terrorism/crime are equally just as impossible to rule out completely.

So, yeah,.. I'm not going to worry about a Jihad attack in Ireland.. It might happen someday, but I seriously doubt it will happen any time soon, and in all likelihood it will only affect a few people. When I see some indication of a concentrated attack by an organisation with funding and a wide range of recruits.. then I'll start getting worried.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118186092#Comment_118186092

In your opinion Robbie, are people afraid of Islam as a belief system or are they just afraid of the extremist elements of Islam and how that plays out as terrorism?

To simplify, are people generally basing their fear of Islam on their hatred of what are mostly brown skinned people, which would base the Islamophobic mindset firmly in racist ideology, or are people simply afraid of being blown up by the small number of extremists who will act out through terrorism?

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118186092#Comment_118186092

Did you view the hammering that the Catholic Church gets on issues like Mother and baby as Christianiphobic.

I think it is deserved and too mild.

I'm not going to pretend though that the views of people like Archbishop McQuaid, awful as he was, is anything but on the mildest spectrum of mainstream Islam and in places like Clonskeagh mosque unacceptably soft.

There is this weird relationship for many with Islam where say Christians saying love the sinner, not the sin about gay men lead's to a backlash but in a Mosque material advocating murder of Gay men is ignored by the Same people.

In the news a few years ago a pair of activists, 2 gay men, ran into a Church ran into a Church and started making out during mass,or Service,it was in England.

They wouldn't pick a place like Clonskeagh or the massive mosque in Tower Hamlets, would they survive it?

Militant Islam is the smaller threat.

enricoh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118186342#Comment_118186342

Hmm, if only we could forsee what is in the pipeline by comparing how our nearest neighbours got on.

Paddy only became multicultural since the millennium,France, Belgium, the UK etc are a generation further down the tracks n it's going all going swimmingly.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/huge-scale-of-terror-threat-revealed-uk-home-to-23-000-jihadists-3zvn58mhq

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118186438#Comment_118186438

Let me ask you a question, do you think that all humans think with a hive binary mindset.

Either all humans think think (A) or all humans think (B)?

What is the largest grouping of your own peers you can imagine who would have the same reason for believing any single social or political issue ?

I am from a large family and I do not believe that on many social or political issues that my siblings and I would all agree on anything so why would I expand such a belief like that to "people"?

I believe some people may fear Islam and the people who practise that religion in part due to a dislike or lack of knowledge of that religions beliefs and how they are practised by the majority.

I believe some people may fear Islam and the people who practise that religion in part due to racist reasons.

I believe some people may fear Islam and the people who practise that religion due to offences carried out in the name of that religion by a very small minority of its worshippers.

And nullzero I can hold all these views concurrently without any issue.

But most important for this thread I do not believe the risk to life in Ireland from Jihad is so pressing or of such an obvious and imminent danger that it should trump considering all of the other issues which do present more real risk to life of the residents of Ireland.

For example the total deaths related to road traffic incidents stands at 119 as of today for 2021. That issue is of much more importance at present in considering risk to Irish residents lives than a jihad attack. 119>0

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118186362#Comment_118186362

It's not that I can't sleep because of it, but I find it abhorrent that we should accept some deaths, even a small number, out of fear of not offending a minority.

The reference to the pandemic wasn't mine. Another poster keeps saying things like this and that causes more deaths than islamic terrorism so we should really focus on something else - red herring I think it's called.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118186594#Comment_118186594

A straight answer was too much to hope for.

I presented two scenarios that were wide enough in scope for you to fit what you've said above into a single answer.

Essentially, people who are Islamophobic are most likely simply afraid of Islamic terrorism, they may be ignorant of many aspects of Islam as well but their fear is most likely not born of simple prejudice for prejudice sake.

The other option is that people hate Muslims because they are racist.

To take your road death analogy and run with that concept the number of people who you would consider Islamophobic who fall into the "I'm just afraid of Islamic terrorism" camp would greatly outnumber the "I just hate Muslims because I'm a racist" camp.

I have outlined the issues I have with Islam on this thread, I have similar issues with all religious beliefs as it happens, as I have also stated here.

Does that make me a bigot? According to you it does. The problem is that you see anyone who disagrees with your position on a topic as intolerant and or overtly racist, or in this case Islamophobic.

Tellingly you are incapable of answering a question that doesn't suit your narrative.

We have a right to discuss the possibility of Islamic terrorism occurring in Ireland even if it isn't as likely as other countries, and we can talk about it without being prejudiced against all Muslims, and we can RobbieTheRobber hold these views concurrently without any issue, and we can answer all questions honestly whilst we do it.

Cordell

Prioritisation might be a better word Cordell

Of course. It's not a priority until it is and when it is it's actually too late. And not leaning from other's mistakes seems to be a priority as well. What it's not a priority? Doing the right thing.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118186803#Comment_118186803

A straight answer was too much to hope for.

Its a discussion forum not the yes no game show and you are not the host. I am under no obligation to make my answer fit your parameters.

I presented two scenarios that were wide enough in scope for you to fit what you've said above into a single answer.

That is incorrect.

Essentially, people who are Islamophobic are most likely simply afraid of Islamic terrorism, they may be ignorant of many aspects of Islam as well but their fear is most likely not born of simple prejudice for prejudice sake.

You cannot speak on behalf of "people" what a ridiculous notion. Please deal with your own experience. you do not speak for me and last time I checked I qualified as "people".

The other option is that people hate Muslims because they are racist.

Indeed some people are racist. Are you disputing that there are racist people?

To take your road death analogy and run with that concept the number of people who you would consider Islamophobic who fall into the "I'm just afraid of Islamic terrorism" camp would greatly outnumber the "I just hate Muslims because I'm a racist" camp.

I did not post any road death analogy and the rest of this point is just nonsense that I fail to understand. I posted the number of road deaths this year as an example of something that that causes death and injury in Ireland this year to Irish people.

I have outlined the issues I have with Islam on this thread, I have similar issues with all religious beliefs as it happens, as I have also stated here.

So what. What does this prove. I am irreligious what difference does that make. Could I not be irreligious and anti Semitic?

Does that make me a bigot? According to you it does. The problem is that you see anyone who disagrees with your position on a topic as intolerant and or overtly racist, or in this case Islamophobic.

Go and quote me on that where I have said anything about you!

I'm sick to the teeth of people on boards ascribing things to me. I have never called you a bigot and I am well capable of stating what I think and need no help from you to interpret myself. Fuckin nonsense. Pure fuckin nonsense

Tellingly you are incapable of answering a question that doesn't suit your narrative.

How stupid a thing to believe is this. I answered your question I know I did because you replied to it. Just because you didn't get the answer you liked doesn't mean I didn't answer your silly little question.

We have a right to discuss the possibility of Islamic terrorism occurring in Ireland even if it isn't as likely as other countries, and we can talk about it without being prejudiced against all Muslims, and we can RobbieTheRobber hold these views concurrently without any issue, and we can answer all questions honestly whilst we do it.

I have never said you cant discuss it, again please quote me before you post more of this nonsense.

Its well worth noting nullzero that a person can be honest and also be wrong.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090627#Comment_118090627

Here s a quote where you said "I believe you might suffer from Islamophobia"

That's an attempt to tar me with the Islamophobia brush, make the other person appear to be unreasonable, in this case accuse them of being a bigot, sorry, might be suffering from bigotry.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118186951#Comment_118186951

When you make statements about the validaty of a discussion how should that be interpreted?

You make thinly veiled accusations against me and then act surprised when I bring them up. See the post above this one with the post containing the quote you asked me to post.

You were asked a question about how strict islamic doctrine sadly ends up being something that has a negative impact on women and LGBTQ people in certain Islamic countries repeatedly and you never answered it. You can be against Islamophobia and still take issue with the way some within islam treat parts of their society. That's the evidence of you not being able to give a straight answer.

I never said that racist people don't exist (not sure where that came from).

You said me saying I am as you put it "Ireligious" "doesn't prove anything". Tell me Robbie, in your opinion am I a bigot? Give it to me straight.

I've given you all the evidence you've asked for on this thread, answered all of your questions including your request to quote you accusing me of bigotry but I'll go out on a limb and predict that you will still find a way to make out that I'm being unreasonable here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118186705#Comment_118186705

Oh, I understood that you hadn't raised the issue of covid, and had been dealing with others doing so. I simply used it to explain my lack of concern about a Jihad against Ireland. I've looked at the range of attacks made in Europe, and while they're awful in themselves, they don't really pose that much real risk to a nation. A few deaths that shouldn't be happening, but ultimately, it's not the terrible risk that some people make it out to be. Not yet anyway. I believe that could change, but it remains unlikely considering what has happened so far.

The thing is that I would be considered to be Islamaphobic. Oh, I don't have any issue with the religion or culture while it exists in the M.East or Africa, but I do have problems with the spread of it into Europe. I don't like the way countries like France have had to deal (or haven't managed to deal) with the issues of a lack of integration or assimilation. My opposition to Multiculturalism (as it has been implemented so far) should be pretty obvious to most people. (and no, folks, it's not racist to state any of that. It's not even culturalist to state it.)

As for those other posters you vaguely (😀) mentioned, they're blocked on my account, for the reason that it's next to impossible to have any kind of reasonable/honest kind of discussion with them for longer than a few posts. Invariably they will resort to misleading comments, deflections, or whatever, but there's no real point in dealing with them. They don't change, and won't engage with you properly, with any kind of mutual respect. So... believe me, I get where you're coming from. (Mods: I named nobody, and didn't reference any specific posts. There's no direct insults here to get worked up about).

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118187120#Comment_118187120

When you make statements about the validaty of a discussion how should that be interpreted?

You nullzero are an individual you can interpret things any way you want.

You make thinly veiled accusations against me and then act surprised when I bring them up. See the post above this one with the post containing the quote you asked me to post.

No I didn't make thinly veiled accusations. In your post above I told you my opinion. And my opinion was quite clear on what I meant.

You were asked a question about how strict islamic doctrine sadly ends up being something that has a negative impact on women and LGBTQ people in certain Islamic countries repeatedly and you never answered it. You can be against Islamophobia and still take issue with the way some within islam treat parts of their society. That's the evidence of you not being able to give a straight answer.

I don't have to answer any question I do not want to. I cant believe you have been waiting this long to bring this nonsense up again. What is it with this gotcha question of yours that you think badgering me over and over again is going to achieve?

I never said that racist people don't exist (not sure where that came from).

So racism is a valid reason for islamophobia. Glad you agree.

You said me saying I am as you put it "Ireligious" "doesn't prove anything". Tell me Robbie, in your opinion am I a bigot? Give it to me straight

Fuckin hell man. I said, I RobbieTheRobber was irreligious. I then posed the question that would me being irreligious remove the likelihood of me being anti-Semitic?

I don't know you, how would I know if you are a bigot. Are you trying to bully me into answering a question only to report my post?

I've given you all the evidence you've asked for on this thread, answered all of your questions including your request to quote you accusing me of bigotry but I'll go out on a limb and predict that you will still find a way to make out that I'm being unreasonable here.

Well that is a lie. I never called you a bigot not once and you have shown no evidence of this. Please try again

If you feel you are coming across as unreasonable that is on you not me.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118186872#Comment_118186872

I agree it is always good to lean into a mistake.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118187393#Comment_118187393

Robbie, you made a statement that is quoted above that said and I quote "I believe you might suffer from Islamophobia". You said that, it is visible in the quoted post above but you are saying I have shown no evidence of it.

You are tying yourself up in knots yet again. There is never a straight answer with you, even when you are presented with things you yourself have written you choose to ignore them.

That effectively makes a mockery of everything else you've said in your last post. You say I'm bullying you into answering questions, I'm doing nothing of the sort, you are using emotive language to negate the fact that when you ask me a question I answer it, or when you ask for evidence I provide it but when the same standard is applied to you your reaction is to claim to be the victim of bullying.

Cordell

@[Deleted User], it's not as much concern as it is (mild...) outrage at the fact some seem to think it's acceptable to have these things happening at all. Of course the risk is extremely low even in countries with high activity, and to quote them, the risk of dying on a car crash is much higher. But we need cars, that's the difference :)

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118187438#Comment_118187438

Please stop badgering me. I don't want to get blamed for derailing the thread.

You have not shown a single post where I called you a bigot so lets leave it there.

Nullzero statement

Does that make me a bigot? According to you it does. The problem is that you see anyone who disagrees with your position on a topic as intolerant and or overtly racist, or in this case Islamophobic.

my reply.

Go and quote me on that where I have said anything about you!I'm sick to the teeth of people on boards ascribing things to me. I have never called you a bigot and I am well capable of stating what I think and need no help from you to interpret myself. Fuckin nonsense. Pure fuckin nonsense

🙈🙉🙊

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118186292#Comment_118186292

Of course, Racism has always been part and parcel of society ( common or garden type, that is ) and can be found in any Country. But add murderous activities into the mix, and you will have a very different kind of racism. Would not fancy being a Muslim in Liverpool ( or many other Cities in the UK) at this point in time.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118187563#Comment_118187563

Ah would you give over Robbie.

I did show a post where you did just that.

Stop trying to feign victimhood. You're not being bullied or badgered. You are having the same standard applied to you as you apply to others.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118187571#Comment_118187571

Most of the midlands and north are dominated by them. Liverpool is the exception. Just look at the sum of sweet f all the english did after the manchester arena bombing. They can send the parachute regiment into irish cities in their united kingdon but cannot do the same to islamic areas. One could say the IRA launched their terrorism campaign 40 years too early

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118186362#Comment_118186362

Except you are almost totally ignoring the fact the amount of resources intelligence services and police forces are having to use to keep a lid on things.

How many possible major attacks have been thwarted over the last 10 years?

How many terror cells have been squashed or how many would be attackers have been found before they gain entry?

We probably don't know for secrecy reasosn the full extent of what has gone on.

IMHO things are not going to get better, we are not going back to days when you could wander around cities, certain tourist attractions like you did years ago.

There is a hell of a lot more monitoring, a lot more heavily armed police, even military, present in major cities in Europe.

Most if not all of that is due to islamist terror threats.

I wouldn't bet on a jihadist attack not happening in Ireland in the next 5 years.

All it takes is someone to make the wrong comment, some entity to be linked to a comment that displeases a chunk of the ever more sensitive believers of islam.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118186342#Comment_118186342

That does not rule out 100% that neither will ever happen here in Ireland. Now given the time scale of tectonic plate movements, and the frequency of Jihad attacks, if you were a betting man, which one do you think will happen here first?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118187473#Comment_118187473

I get that. I don't get the comparison with cars, flying or covid TBH. A better comparison would be terrorism done by any religious group, or political ideology, because it is rare for it to happen in the modern western world.

That's not an encouragement for the others to start comparing Islam with Christianity. They're completely different religions, have different histories, and more importantly, have vastly different influence over their followers. Anyone seeking to make such a comparison, simply shows their ignorance on such a topic (I know from past experience, that this kind of comparison invariably is raised after a bit)

Beasty

nullzero and RobbieTheRobber - maybe put each other on ignore as you are both heading for threadbans at this rate

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118187890#Comment_118187890

Except you are almost totally ignoring the fact the amount of resources intelligence services and police forces are having to use to keep a lid on things.

Am I? Or were they simply not referenced by either of us?

We probably don't know for secrecy reasosn the full extent of what has gone on

That might fly in the US with their fetish for secrecy, but can you really imagine European public servants and politicians all managing to keep such a thing secret? I can't. In any case, preventing attacks would be all over the media as an effort to show just how successful they've been, and how safe we all are.

Oh, I suspect there are ongoing operations with successes which have not been made public, but anything significant would have been released due to the propaganda value.

IMHO things are not going to get better, we are not going back to days when you could wander around cities, certain tourist attractions like you did years ago.

It hasn't prevented me from doing so. TBH my only concern has been a rise in crime in many European cities, rather than the threat of terrorism. I suspect most tourists don't think about the terrorism aspect of things except for the couple of weeks following an attack, and then, just get on with things.

When I went to Moscow first in the early 2000s I freaked myself out reading loads of articles about how unsafe it was. Still went. Had zero problems. Went back again later, knowing that there had been gunfire in the streets at times, and just got on with things.

There is a hell of a lot more monitoring, a lot more heavily armed police, even military, present in major cities in Europe. Most if not all of that is due to islamist terror threats.

True, but then, I think that is as much related to an increase in government power, and a decline in democracy... which covid has managed to reinforce.

I wouldn't bet on a jihadist attack not happening in Ireland in the next 5 years.

Depends on what kind of attack, but I'm fine betting against you on this. I doubt Ireland will be facing any of these kind of problems for another decade or two.

All it takes is someone to make the wrong comment, some entity to be linked to a comment that displeases a chunk of the ever more sensitive believers of islam.

Lets be clear here. Are you combining violence by individual Muslims with that of actual terrorism?

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118187571#Comment_118187571

Thanks for agreeing with me.

Yes it would not be nice to be a muslim in Liverpool and suffer racial abuse because of the actions of others. I agree with you jmreire

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118187967#Comment_118187967

The Jihadi.

But it's probably like a 1% chance one will happen over the next ten years versus a .1% chance or something