The creeping prominence of the Irish language

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971761#Comment_117971761

Oh the kids will of course have that second language which is advantageous anyway regardless of the language involved and it will bolster the Irish language itself as some will keep using it to some degree or other. It's certainly in a healthier state than not so long ago. Gaelscoileanna were around in the past. My own mother went to one(the only one of the extended family to do so) in Dublin back in the day. I've no idea why tbh. Funny enough in my school years she was of little help with my Irish homework. She'd effectively forgotten the majority of it. My dad on the other hand had more Irish because he'd been going fishing in the west of Ireland since he was a kid and had picked it up talking to locals waaaay back in the day(him being born when the GPO was still smouldering after an Easter egg hunt got a bit violent). My previously mentioned uncle who was fluent needed it at first for the civil service and then when he married someone who was a speaker. He himself reckons he would have gotten very rusty if he'd married someone else. In a way that shows the difference. For my mum it was a "useless" language as none of her peers spoke it so it withered on the vine, whereas for my father and uncle it had been actually useful so was worth retaining. These days there are certainly more outlets for it, even if they're only clubs for that sorta thing so you'll have more people using it. There can be an element of forced usuage with some, but it does help keep it going. As do outlets like TG4 and the like.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971936#Comment_117971936

There's certainly a lot of that going on, a bias, unconscious and not. Of the parents I know who sent their kids to one, only one pair had Irish, the rest didn't. Their kids still got in, though they're all solidly middle class with the "right" background... In Dublin anyway there's more than the sniff of elitism going on with the leafy suburban gaelscoileanna(I strongly suspect that's far less in play outside the Pale).

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972006#Comment_117972006

I live beside a gaelscoils. Nice try.

Very few have said anything about hating the language. Most are unhappy about the absolute need for you lot to feel like victims when we don't want millions wasted on flogging it

But it's 2021. Everyone is a victim 😴

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972030#Comment_117972030

This whole thread originated from a poster throwing a bitchfit over being exposed to Irish. 🙄

olestoepoke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972027#Comment_117972027

That's the first time I've heard someone label Inchicore, Ballymun, Coolock or Balbriggan etc as "Leafy suburban"

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971978#Comment_117971978

it isn’t a matter of how much Irish is spoken in Ireland, it is the first official language of Ireland. Constitutionally.

One might consider that this line sums up quite well the dissonance around the Irish language. In essence the same Irish people who as you rightly note would baulk at any constitutional change in the primacy of Irish in law need to be told by law it's their first language and very few of them can speak it with any fluency. It's like a bloke telling all his mates he's in love with a woman, but he never sleeps with her, at best drops the hand to give her arse cheek an inexpert squeeze. I'm not sure the woman in question would believe his protestations of love. 😁

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972055#Comment_117972055

Clearly Irish is your favored language, because you don't understand English particularly well.

I said "most people" not everyone

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058211385/the-creeping-prominence-of-the-irish-language

The title and OP of this thread is about the 'creeping prominence of the Irish language'. I and others have simply pointed out that this hasn't happened by accident. It all stems from the Official Languages Act 2003 which seeks to enforce the position of Irish as per Article 8 of the constitution.

Personally I have a grá for our Irish culture, traditions and language, despite what others try to paint. I think it perfectly reasonable that citizens should be able to interact with their neighbours and state bodies through the medium of the language. No argument there. I'd support the idea that there should be Irish only signage and information in Gaeltacht areas, that's part of the deal.

Where I do have a difficulty is that this Official Languages Act 2003 was imposed on every citizen of the state without wide consultation. I was never asked for my opinions on it, I've never heard of anyone who was consulted. I think it's safe to assume that the main drivers behind the act were language lobbyists. That's fine insofar as that is/was their right to lobby. But it doesn't follow that the rest of society should be bound by a small group of lobbyists on such matters. I repeat that this legislation should have been carefully explained at the time and put to public referendum. I'll leave it there.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972069#Comment_117972069

There is no dissonance on the part of native Irish speakers whose first and main language is Irish and yet they constantly struggle to get the same services as English speakers in Ireland.

Nobody believes that English is the most prominent language in Ireland however Irish speakers have to defend themselves over and over again to English speakers in order to be treated equally.

Irish speakers are tax paying citizens of this country, and it is their right not to be treated as second class citizens just because English speakers can’t wrap their head around someone using a language other than English.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972059#Comment_117972059

Indeed, but how many students of a darker persuasion attend such schools as Gaelige? How many attend the regular national schools in the same area? Compare and contrast. For the craic like search Colaiste Ghlor na Mara in Balbriggan and play spot the tanned kid. In Balbriggan...

I don't buy the "well maybe they're not fluent in english so are already at a disadvantage". As an example Nigerians have one of the highest fluency in English of the different migrant populations living in Ireland and secondly kids hoover up languages like a sponge, which the Gaelscoileanna movement itself points out as an advantage of the schools. And yet... I would bet the farm that the percentage of non White kids attending Gaelscoileanna in urban areas is significantly lower than the overall population of same. To deny that reality would be foolish.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972108#Comment_117972108

Your posts have so many typos in them it’s often difficult to comprehend what you’re trying to put across. Maybe take a few English lessons yourself.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971891#Comment_117971891

Either that's one he'll off a bitter rant or you have no idea what English speakers think.

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972130#Comment_117972130

You're far too easily risen.

Loosen the strap on your drawers and have a good evening

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971890#Comment_117971890

Firstly, I misread that for Gaeltacht (not sure how - apologies!) - but secondary school education is always a means to an end - and the purpose of a secondary education - is college points.

It shouldn't be - but it is.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972055#Comment_117972055

Yeah and I really don't get that at all. In my life Irish only figured in my schooldays. Something to plough through like algebra. Since then it figures not a jot really. It's pretty much invisible and inaudible to me. So what if a sign is in Irish? It may as well be in Swahili for as much as it affects me. If it helps others, even as cultural window dressing for many, so what? *shrug*

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972143#Comment_117972143

ha ha ha, you tried to mock my comprehension of your risible, racist, typo-ridden posts and when I threw it back at you you started crying about it.

You’re just a bully.

olestoepoke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972126#Comment_117972126

All true, mostly. But there is absolutely nothing stopping a child who's parents are of African decent from enrolling in a Gaelscoil and the small few who have are proof of this. Have you ever considered that some parents are not interested in that level of integration? So what exactly are you trying to argue?

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972115#Comment_117972115

Again so what Furze? It can be imposed by whomever and however it likes, but the plain fact is in day to day encounters, business and higher education it won't matter for the vast majority of people. Hell there are nigh on one hundred thousand Polish people living in Ireland, each one of whom has more actual native fluency and a wider vocabularly in that language than the vast majority of Irish speakers.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972151#Comment_117972151

I understand that Wibbs but for people who grew up speaking Irish it’s not a school subject. It’s not a scam to keep their kids away from foreigners either. 🙄

I have friends who are native Irish speakers from the Gaeltacht and English would be a second language to them, in terms of comprehension, expressing themselves etc. These are not old men, these are people in their 20s-30s. People like these exist. Tax paying citizens of this country who only ask to be treated the same as everyone else without constantly having to defend themselves and their language, like they’re living perverted lifestyles.

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972161#Comment_117972161

Christ. You're an odd one.

How you extrapolate that shite from what I said is bizzare at least.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972168#Comment_117972168

The obvious.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972181#Comment_117972181

Oh no I fully understand in the cases like you mention and I have no issue with supporting the language especially for them. And I would contend the country does so to a great extent. Certainly officialdom does. However the simple fact is that Ireland is an English speaking nation, for both good and ill. That's just how the cookie crumbled as the Yanks would say.

Fishdoodle

I don’t think there is an exclusion policy imposed by any Gaelscoil. Generally it’s up to parents where they’d like to send their child to school and that’s not a bad thing. If they make an informed decision about how the personal needs of their child will best be met- well and good. Whatever statistical trends arise may provide a deeper insight into people’s biases, preferences, hopes-they’re human traits. No public school would hold itself up as exclusive. Every school will have advantages and disadvantages.

Certainly Gaelscoileanna have more emphasis on culture from language to GAA, Irish dancing, traditional music etc. That’s how they lay out their stall from Ballymun to Ballina. That’s a great thing. As what started as a grassroots organisation -it’s pretty successful.

For those who learn Irish it is encouraging at least that what language they acquire I s gaining reflection more prominently in public …even in small steps such as having the choice to use the language when dealing with a public service.

There were plenty of people bashing T na G (now TG4) when it launched -same old argument -waste of money/won’t last a few years… but it has proven successful.

You’ll always get polarised opinion about Irish but I imagine the majority of decent people who have a reasonable cultural perspective, -even non speakers are at least favourable towards it One’s past experience at school isn’t quite the same as today … I think socially we’re moving on.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972204#Comment_117972204

I have never met a single person who has said otherwise. Again, this thread is about English speakers getting up in arms about hearing Irish, not the other way around.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972216#Comment_117972216

I think you'll find most English speakers don't care, while Irish.sprakers care too much.

I said, on a similar thread some time ago, that Irish language enthusiasts cared me about the status of the language rather that the appeal or popular usage of it.

Cyclingtourist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971978#Comment_117971978

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971127#Comment_117971127

"Anyway, unfortunately for English language Mono-linguists, it isn’t a matter of how much Irish is spoken in Ireland, it is the first official language of Ireland. Constitutionally."

This is a common line, that it being declared 'the first official language' denotes some special rights over English also an official language. The Constitution goes on to state that their use by the state can be regulated by law. So in theory the state could totally drop the use in its affairs of the so called 'first language' and do all business in English.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972224#Comment_117972224

Irish speakers care about Irish? Stop the presses.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969819#Comment_117969819

They have a point though imo (plus I don't think you really have a good laugh always!) There is a not insignificant self flagellating tendency among some Irish folk. I am not talking about criticism of negative aspects, e.g. too much drinking or the church having such a grip until relatively recently. I am not a fan of rabid nationalism either.

I am talking about this type of thread - an aggressive hostility regarding the Irish language. I would be surprised if there was a similar situation in Wales or Scotland.

I'm talking about the absurdity of phrases like "only in Ireland" and "typical Irish" strewn about by Irish people in relation to what could be found in any society. The way they refer to the Irish as "paddies". Such an inferiority complex (or perversely can come across as the opposite - as though they consider themselves superior to other Irish people). The more extreme ones talk about how we would be better off under the British, and pretend the conflict in the North was entirely republican orchestrated. It's perplexing and quite toxic. How could people be so ashamed of their own heritage? Much as they think they are somehow not part of it, they are. Those whom they tug their forelocks to just see them as Irish.

A colleague of mine is British Indian and he notices similar among some of his relatives - how they claim the British empire was so great for the Indian people (forgetting about the auld mass killings and brutality). Seems to be a colonialism hangover.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972247#Comment_117972247

*more about

- apologies for the typo.

Jjameson

I think what I find amusing is that we are losing our spoken language around here (north Wexford) in favour of a morphing of United States, south Dublin. Kids are corrected in school to learned English and this peculiar standardised Irish that is spoken no where while our rich spoken language is being lost, (a mix of English , Middle English, Norse, French,Gaelic,some throws towards Welsh and even Cornwall. Talking to a neighbouring farmer around here would go like this “Gomorrah” “Anything quare.” “Not a haypert”

now in the new age we have “mom” instead of “mudder” and the kid is either called Jayden or Donnacha or some bolloxology while names that registered in families for 1000+ years of record are replaced by the educated!

[Deleted User]

As someone who came to school here just before secondary school, I learned irish. It was grand. I have no issue with Irish signs, or announcements or anything like that.

The kids in my family go to Irish schools and preschools, many kids from different nationalities are in their schools. It.doesn't matter to them if there are signs of announcements in irish!

Why would anyone actually care? They are in English too for the People that don't understand or won't engage.