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James Browne setting up Firearms Advisory Committee

  • 29-09-2021 11:10am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭ smmember20


    Excellent article on Newstalk this AM concerning the setting up of the above committee



«13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,330 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Caught the tail end of this with some lad on the pro-gun side saying this is a good idea and with some of JBrownes Min of state parting comments.

    All questions answered on the podcast.

    Post edited by Grizzly 45 on

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,330 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Podcast up now. The 250,000 figure BS figure is the first thing up.

    Firearms expert committee. Mentioning the licensing inconsistencies, est an expert committee to look at what type of guns are in circulation, and licenses thereof and possibly try and get it in line with Europe[THAT will be a shock to the system]. Consolidate the amendments on amendments into one act[about time]

    Committee to be made up of Dept of Justice officials, Garda officials and two independent civilian experts, not representatives of "the gun lobby" [Yup as I would guess and critiqued this idea on that point🙄]. No head shrinkers initially on this.Lots of back and forward waffle about having headshrinkers on this expert committee initially. Minister is against such at this point. Talking about giving AGS powers to remove firearms if there is a domestic dispute and situation[They are already doing such and have done so numerous times]

    Set up this committee, fixed term of 6months and start interviewing. soonest.


    VERDICT 6/10. Some good ideas there and some not so good. setting up this panel could be a double-edged sword to us, as who do they intend to get on there as "civilian advisors" AKA retired Garda members like our dear friend former Insp Brookes?The author of the Garda gun grab in 2015?😱😱 One we need to watch out for folks.

    Post edited by Grizzly 45 on

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,261 ✭✭✭ garrettod


    The concept of having a committee with relevant expertise, for the Minister to consult with, before making any decisions on firearms issues, is probably a good thing - although much depends on who the "experts" are etc. Who gets to pick the civilians, for example?

    The fact that it's only proposed for a six month term, suggests a very specific agenda, which may be a concern.

    Thanks,

    G.



  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭ tonysopprano


    "VERDICT 6/10. Some good ideas there and some not so good. setting up this panel could be a double-edged sword to us, as who do they intend to get on there as "civilian advisors" AKA retired Garda members like our dear friend former Insp Brookes?The author of the Garda gun grab in 2015?😱😱 One we need to watch out for folks."


    You mean like some of these "ex-members"???????

    https://www.thejournal.ie/gardai-seize-cannabis-cash-arrest-dublin-5561233-Sep2021/



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,182 ✭✭✭ Feisar


    Just had a listen to it there. Not bad at all I thought. OK a few facts wrong especially licencing for one year? In fairness James Browne did point out that it's not "one in eight armed". Anton did raise some legit questions over renewals being box ticking exercises. And James Brown did say there are legit reasons to own guns and multiples of. Fairly measured I would have thought, there was no OMG guns bad angle.

    @garrettod I'm inclined to agree and I don't see us gaining anything. Maybe it's just a government, nothing to see here effort and nothing will change. A window dressing exercise?

    Did they mention bringing us in line with Europe, will there be an incentive to buy scheme rolled out?


    I couldn't find a map of handgun legality across the EU 😂


    Edit - I say "in fairness" to much.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 775 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    Or this fine example:

    Mind you, that article doesn't mention he got sacked so probably still an active cop.

    I couldn't find a map of handgun legality across the EU

    Probably because now with the UK gone we are the only country where you cannot own one larger that a 22, and a 5 shot 22 at that.

    Similarly we are the only EU country to have practical shooting banned.

    But I'm sure "bringing us into line with the EU" will include the above, and other areas where we are worse off like reloading, muzzleloaders, blank firers requiring authorisation, the 1 joule limit for firearms, low powered airguns needing licences, ammunition limits, standard capacity magazines for sport shooting, state funding for shooting ranges and shooting sports, etc.

    Just off the top of my head I know ireland lags far behind most EU countries in areas firearms related.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,182 ✭✭✭ Feisar


    @otmmyboy2 The map I threw up there, it's funny it's the countries that are often lauded as places to aspire to that have the highest guns per capita, Scandinavia, Germany, France, Switzerland and Austria.

    Dunno what Denmark are at...


    First they came for the socialists...



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    @Feisar The funniest thing aboutt hat map, and pretty much any online article you find is that politicians cite those figures as the ownership rates when they have access to the actual ones via thier online registration or police services.

    Why do they continue to use gunpolicy or small arm services for their numbers.


    Look at Denmark. Their rate is at 12%. That is based on the same bastardised algorithim as Ireland with 390,000 legally held guns and 260,000 illegal guns (which are lumped together) to give a false total of 660,000 firearms. The worst part is this figure is from 2007. Even if you use the same bastardised algorithim but use more recent figures the numbers drop to 340,000 legal guns and 227,000 illegal (or as they're now calling them unregistered) guns for a total of 567,000 firearms and an ownership rate of 9.9%.


    However take the real numbr of legally owned guns ONLY and you get an onwership rate, based soley on registered firearms and not taking into account multiple firearm per person and the highest that number gets is 5.8% and possibly lower than 4.5%.


    So in short any number you see in that map (and I know you know this) can be cut by approx 55 - 60% to give the real ownership rate.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,998 ✭✭✭ Melodeon


    The "bringing us into line with the EU" bit would be very interesting, but I suspect it'd be a very 'Irish' interpretation of the attitude to firearm ownership and shooting sports we see all across the EU.

    Another interesting aside to this harmonisation proposal is what might happen as a result of the looking-more-and-more-likely-in-the-nearish-future unification of this island into a single nation state. There's a good bit of talk about anthems, flags, constitutional change, compulsory language teaching, dual/multiple citizenship, etc; what might be the position of the many gun owners in Northern Ireland who currently possess firearms that are effectively illegal here (and in GB), reload their own ammunition, participate in practical shooting sports, etc? 'Harmonising' them into our firearms legislation is unlikely to be met with much enthusiasm.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,330 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Another interesting aside to this harmonisation proposal is what might happen as a result of the looking-more-and-more-likely-in-the-nearish-future unification of this island into a single nation state. There's a good bit of talk about anthems, flags, constitutional change, compulsory language teaching, dual/multiple citizenship, etc; what might be the position of the many gun owners in Northern Ireland who currently possess firearms that are effectively illegal here (and in GB), reload their own ammunition, participate in practical shooting sports, etc? 'Harmonising' them into our firearms legislation is unlikely to be met with much enthusiasm.

    As well as fireworks...Legal up there too...Oh and don't forget the new all Ireland police force that will have to be established? Will it be armed or unarmed? Does the Irish govt intend to provide to every former military and political figure and residing serving and ex-member of HM govt and forces with personal protection in a personal police protection officer?Or continue to allow them to be exempted new Irish citizens to be able to still carry concealed firearms.Let's not forget the complete melts on BOTH sides who still have access to illegal and legal firearms,and either do/dont want a 32 county Ireland, and are willing to start shooting again to get it or not ?What might be a trivial matter to someone firearms ownership could be the major deal-breaker on the whole NI situation one day.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,330 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    It fits a narrative. Gunpolicy org.is a "respectable academic institution" in a university in Sydney. So of course academics would never lie or be swayed by pork barrel funds or their own biases. Considering the head of this Sydney uni is a rabid anti-gun nut who was advising the Aussie govt on the banning of lever-action shotguns four years ago. And of course, our MSM would never publish non-factual news either... Like none of these muckrakers didn't quiery 15 year out of date figures, and no one bothered asking our local LE who deals with it were these figures more or less accurate?

    Never let facts get in the way of a good headline and the possibility to keep the sheeple scared.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,261 ✭✭✭ garrettod


    Anyone tempted to start contacting James Browne, by email or letter, asking that we be brought into line with the EU, in respect of some of the things that might otherwise be "forgotten"?


    The situation could get very interesting, if he has to respond to dozens of emails / letters, all calling for the same things as our fellow Europeans have.

    Thanks,

    G.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,182 ✭✭✭ Feisar


    I am but I don't want to stick my foot in it either.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭ deeksofdoom


    🤗

    Great idea, bring our legislation in line with ...... Poland! 🤗🤗🤗



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 15,143 Mod ✭✭✭✭ FutureGuy


    My dad is a member of the local club and has been so confused with these guidelines. He's elderly and not internet-savvy - is there a synopsis anywhere that is up-to-date?



  • Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭ BSA International


    So they're discussing OUR sport and WE have no input. Isn't democracy great......



  • Registered Users Posts: 775 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban



  • Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭ jb88


    Ive already given my piece of mind to this politician, he doesnt care, so dont worry your entitlements will be trounced, thats a foregone conclusion.

    If he knew the length of a firearms licence 3 years and maybe didnt refer to cases in the UK, who are no longer part of Europe and then bring up the statement that he wants to be more in line with Europe.

    Absolutely no trust at all here. Electioneering at its best. Dont even acknowledge this BS.

    LOBBY your own TD'S and other TD's of influence. Forget about this guy, he hasnt done anything thus far to help. Dont expect that outcome to change.

    All he wants is coverage, and Newstalk will do that all day every day.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,261 ✭✭✭ garrettod


    "LOBBY your own TD'S and other TD's of influence. Forget about this guy, he hasnt done anything thus far to help."


    Why not do both (lobby your own TD'S, and the Minister), so your local TDs are in the loop, and he's under the spotlight with them, given they are the ones that'll pay the price at the next election etc.?

    Thanks,

    G.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,261 ✭✭✭ garrettod


    For the lads that are mentioning the likes of Poland or the Czech Republic...

    How about some specifics, that are "realistic" asks, and that others here might use in their individual letters / emails?

    Thanks,

    G.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,330 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    What? You[all of you] haven't done this already??? Are ye waiting for a written invitation? Get to it!!!

    Refer to things like;

    Ireland has THE strictest gun laws in the EU, and for that, we have the LEAST access to things our EU neighbours enjoy, and even our neighbours up in NI have more benefits under their licensing system. Things like ;

    WHY would you preclude members of "the gun lobby"[in your own words on newstalk] IE all of us concerned shooters, from your inquiry panel? or this proposed arbitration authority? You are proposing to make legislative changes that directly affect us, but preclude any representation or membership from those directly affected? Would you do this to any other group being affected in Irish society,or are Irish gun owners the exception?


    CF handguns[available in and under varying conditions throughout the Union member states]Why are these particular types of firearms particularly despised/feared by the Irish PTB?

    Ammo reloading is available throughout the union[subject to local legislation on storage or qualifications] but wholly unavailable to anyone in the Republic due to utterly vexatious legislation set up for commercial manufacture of munitions, and not an individual level. The legislation as it stands makes it impossible due to cost/red tape for someone to reload at home .

    Ditto black powder/pydroex...Why particularly is the Republic shooter prohibited from shooting BP and muzzleloaders here? Again available throughout the union, and in some cases [France] not even considered a firearm.

    Lack of a proof house in Ireland.A mandatory requirement now in the EU for a member state to provide such if they are manufacturing and offering dor sale on the market any firearms. This is something the Irish state cant fob off to a private company, as a proof mark is a state mark guaranteeing the safety of a product. The State and gunsmiths are wide open to litigation under product liability,if there is an accident with such untested firearms, plus said built-in Ireland firearms for individual customers cannot be legally sold within the EU without being in proof to the general public. This is also needed for us to legally deact any firearms under the EU directive of recent vintage. As it is impossible due to cost/transport/paperwork/backlogs to ship these firearms to continental EU countries for proofing/deacting.

    Why is a weapon that pretty much became obsolescent in warfare around 1347[IE a crossbow] treated in Irish legislation as being as dangerous and restricted in sales as a modern semi-auto sporting centre fire rifle? They are treated as sports equipment everywhere in the union

    Ditto, why are paintball markers treated as restricted firearms, and as restricted firearms how can unlicensed people use them on paintball adventure weekends without risking a 5-year jail term, while we cannot even legally allow another licensed person to use or test our licensed restricted CF handgun on a range? [The famous Whopsie ,Sparks called it in the Dail public inquiry]

    Why is /was IPSC banned in Ireland, under very suspicious and utterly dubious claims of it being "combat training" when it has and,and can be attested to by anyone with police or military training as having nothing to do with such in any shape or form, and in light of a decade-plus passing since this legislation was enacted, should this nor be reviewed?


    Can the position of substitution of CF handguns be clarified and be formally recognised in legislation, rather than relying on a very dubious "legal loophole" as policy? Likewise, can this be sorted out before any legislation is introduced regarding modern sporting semi-auto rifles so that those pre-2015 are not left in the same boat of legal limbo?

    Why this hate on modern sporting semi-auto rifles all of a sudden?Particularly when the DOJ's own figures reveal that it is a minority-owned firearm with less than 40 licensed in the last 6 years? what is the coherent concern, and please no "particularly dangerous and public safety " guff.They have been used in exactly 0.0001% of gun crime in the ROI since 2006 going by the available AGS/DOJ /CSI statistics available in 2015.


    Should get you going those points as material.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,330 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    1] Demand that representatives of "the gun lobby" are included in this panel and consultative body. Not ex Gardai ,civil servants or handpicked "civilians" in favour of govt policy, but normal knowledgeable,on various disciplines and firearms types, Irish gun owners. One from the target sports and another from the hunting side?

    2] See point 1

    3] see point 1

    4] Drop this post-2015 revocation of semi-auto licenses, it will kill off at least 3 disciplines in shooting sports.

    5]Re allow the centrefire pistols. Even if it is in club storage and after possibly a mandatory 3-year use of a .22 pistol under club conditions, and being signed off for a CF by the club for a particular discipline...It would be better than nothing at the moment.

    6]revamp legislation that would allow home reloading separate from the explosive storage act 2007,as that legislation is not fir for purpose o small scale reloading.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    There are no "new" guidelines, this is about proposed legislation (assuming I haven't missed some salient point being discussed above). In short:

    • In 2015 the Minister said she intended to ban semi-auto licenses and tried to (illegally) cap them.
    • In 2018 the new Commissioner updated the Garda Commissioner's guidelines and included a note about the "pending ban".
    • In the meantime we have had the use of lead ban come through EU stages and will become law and a magazine ban on pistols and semi-auto rifles limiting the capacity of magazines you can own.
    • Last year rumblings were heard about movement on the pending ban of semi-auto rifles and about a month or so ago we got our first look at the first draft of hte proposed legislation which does say it'll ban semi-auto rifles.

    That is about it. Nothing has happened, as such, and guidelines are onyl guidelines, but there are no new ones unless I'm forgetting something.

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    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 335 ✭✭ yubabill


    Out of the loop - computer is down, so just seeing this now.

    very concerned that no shooters will be consulted on the future of their sport, this consultation could be a hatchet job if Browne gets his way (Frances Fitz mentioned this panel being established before banning cf sa rifles).

    agree we write to other TDS as well as Browne.

    My own thoughts are that we shooters must be more self aware; people are fear mongering about shooters and we must re-humanise ourselves in the eyes of TDS etc. shooters are your neighbors, friends, uncles, fathers. I believe there is a genuine institutional fear of shooting folk, we must show them who we are.

    Couple of other thoughts

    The recent murder suicides were done with shotguns and not cf sa rifles.

    We cannot judge all gardai by the actions of one or two bad apples who are under investigation as we speak (drugs/ possibly informing drug gang) -the same argument applies to shooters.

    whenthey banned sa rifles and shotguns in oz,thenumber of suicides by firearm dropped, but suicides by other methods rose, giving a net zero



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,330 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Annnddd we have another apparent domestic stabbing up in Dublin today in the news. Domestic rows with knives seem to be more common in Ireland than domestic shootings...So where are the outraged articles today from pearl-clutching women journalists about "violence against Wimmin" with kitchen knives? Surely now we should be pointing out to Min Browne that his proposed legislation, ostensibly to tackle knife crime is falling short of the mark. Should he not be calling for the banning of kitchen knives over 12 ins long? No one needs a kitchen knife over 12 ins long, and if it saves just ONE life...etc, etc.

    Guess its much easier to promote "feel good " legislation and play God with a minority and scapegoat them than actually tackle a real societal problem.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,182 ✭✭✭ Feisar


    All true however that's not the narrative. We need a well spoken enthusiast to be on the radio/Prime Time/wherever when these things are being discussed/debated. We are effectively censored. OK I know we are not however it's like when someone gets banned from twitter/youtube/etc, OK it's not censorship however when restricted from THE main platform used by everyone the net effect is censorship.

    Basically we are oddballs/gun fetishists/wanna-be Rambo's.

    First they came for the socialists...



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  • Registered Users Posts: 481 ✭✭ Munsterlad102


    Gotta ban all those "assault knives" and "assault knife blocks". Who needs a knife block that can hold more than 5 knives anyway.



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