Excellent article on Newstalk this AM concerning the setting up of the above committee
Just got the tale end of the item. Also another politician of which I have no idea of his name said "stronger knife laws will not reduce knife crime" it's a pity they do not hold the same ideas when it comes to firearms.
Just caught news on classic hits about Min Browne.He is also looking at banning "Zombie knives"here in Ireland and introducing an age limit on purchases of knives(16plus).
I am getting the feeling this guy is on a career run trying to make a name for himself on our backs with a law &order theme.
The point should be also made that it seems us gunowners are held to a higher standard, and by and large, we do too hold ourselves to a higher standard of gun safety and usage than it seems trained and firearms qualified LE personnel is here and in the UK.
Imagine the hullabaloo there would be if one of us had;
1] Been a firearms instructor and shot ourselves literally in the foot in a car messing about with a loaded handgun.
2] Taken off for a drive with our car boot open and our guns falling out of a custom gun safe?
3] Left the range bag with unsecured firearms in it on the roof and took off for a drive losing it in traffic?
4] Been left the keys to a range strong room for two months after leaving the range,and picking up a firearm to end it all?
All of the above has happened in the last decade to LE here in Ireland, and not taking a pop at them either, but to just illustrate a point about being judged because of 3 incidents which were [1] A land dispute,[2] still unknown [3] a major depressive episode culminating in suicide.
I'm not trying to get a dig into An Gardaí just to be a dick, but instead to highlight the hypocrisy of the standards to which gun owners are held and how quickly we all are labeled with th one moniker based on the actions of a tiny minority or even single individual.
The problem is gents a State needs a police force, it doesn't need private gun ownership for sporting reasons.
So the Gardaí can let guns fall out of vehicles* police in other jurisdictions can commit murder and an Irish soldier can shoot comrades in the Lebenon however my privilege to own a gun can be called into question because of a family dispute or a drugs murder with an unlawfully held firearm.
*Christ if I done that at the age of ten I'd remember the day and the date as they say.
Gardai, Army (ref. "Women of Honour" revelations) in all walks of life/sports there are good and bad, same as in shooting. Shameful the decent, law abiding are often branded by the actions of a few bad eggs.
So tell me, what about any of the above makes someone more inclined to trust those, sworn to uphold the law and protect people. IOW should I tar them all with the same brush as I am tarred when a shooting occurs in America, Netherlands, New Zealand simply because I own firearms?
Annddd let's not forget that we had in the UK a member of the Met armed protection corps totally and wholly misuse his power to abduct,rape and murder a young woman last year and gruesomely dispose of her body. And again in the papers last week we have another member of the same unit facing rape charges. Apart from knocking the "OnlY thE POLicE shoULD haVE GuNz cuZ deY is TrusTWortHY an TrainED" argument flat on its face .What damage has that done to the trustworthiness of the police and mankind in general in womens eyes? Are we all now rapists and psycho coppers if we are men?
All true however that's not the narrative. We need a well-spoken enthusiast to be on the radio/Prime Time/wherever when these things are being discussed/debated. We are effectively censored.
I can guarantee you we would get a spokesperson doing excellent PR IF they are from the following group...disabled, female,trans, gay, racial minority or follower of Islam. Single or in a combo of any of the above.You pay the media at its own game,they cannot and will not refuse to interview anyone of those groups without the WASCIST DISCRIMINATION brand being applied to their asses.RTE is paranoid of this racist brandmark.Yeah,its easily to make fun of some old white bits of gammon huffing and puffing about "muh shooting sports" quite a different one to try it against a woman of afro carribean descent or the like.
The other option is and we talked about it is to start an Irish YT channel dedicated to shooting.
Gotta ban all those "assault knives" and "assault knife blocks". Who needs a knife block that can hold more than 5 knives anyway.
All true however that's not the narrative. We need a well spoken enthusiast to be on the radio/Prime Time/wherever when these things are being discussed/debated. We are effectively censored. OK I know we are not however it's like when someone gets banned from twitter/youtube/etc, OK it's not censorship however when restricted from THE main platform used by everyone the net effect is censorship.
Basically we are oddballs/gun fetishists/wanna-be Rambo's.
Yubabill - We cannot judge all gardai by the actions of one or two bad apples who are under investigation as we speak (drugs/ possibly informing drug gang) -the same argument applies to shooters...
At the very possible risk of derailing the thread, its being done. This ban is in reaction to events not even in the state, but elsewhere in the world. So as bad as it is being further restricted due to the actons of Irish criminality how bad are things when virtue signalling laws are introduced so we don't come close to appearing like other countries? Its madness.
In the last week to 10 days there have been four major stories reported in the Times, independent, Examiner, etc. about:
Annnddd we have another apparent domestic stabbing up in Dublin today in the news. Domestic rows with knives seem to be more common in Ireland than domestic shootings...So where are the outraged articles today from pearl-clutching women journalists about "violence against Wimmin" with kitchen knives? Surely now we should be pointing out to Min Browne that his proposed legislation, ostensibly to tackle knife crime is falling short of the mark. Should he not be calling for the banning of kitchen knives over 12 ins long? No one needs a kitchen knife over 12 ins long, and if it saves just ONE life...etc, etc.
Guess its much easier to promote "feel good " legislation and play God with a minority and scapegoat them than actually tackle a real societal problem.
Out of the loop - computer is down, so just seeing this now.
very concerned that no shooters will be consulted on the future of their sport, this consultation could be a hatchet job if Browne gets his way (Frances Fitz mentioned this panel being established before banning cf sa rifles).
agree we write to other TDS as well as Browne.
My own thoughts are that we shooters must be more self aware; people are fear mongering about shooters and we must re-humanise ourselves in the eyes of TDS etc. shooters are your neighbors, friends, uncles, fathers. I believe there is a genuine institutional fear of shooting folk, we must show them who we are.
Couple of other thoughts
The recent murder suicides were done with shotguns and not cf sa rifles.
We cannot judge all gardai by the actions of one or two bad apples who are under investigation as we speak (drugs/ possibly informing drug gang) -the same argument applies to shooters.
whenthey banned sa rifles and shotguns in oz,thenumber of suicides by firearm dropped, but suicides by other methods rose, giving a net zero
There are no "new" guidelines, this is about proposed legislation (assuming I haven't missed some salient point being discussed above). In short:
That is about it. Nothing has happened, as such, and guidelines are onyl guidelines, but there are no new ones unless I'm forgetting something.
1] Demand that representatives of "the gun lobby" are included in this panel and consultative body. Not ex Gardai ,civil servants or handpicked "civilians" in favour of govt policy, but normal knowledgeable,on various disciplines and firearms types, Irish gun owners. One from the target sports and another from the hunting side?
2] See point 1
3] see point 1
4] Drop this post-2015 revocation of semi-auto licenses, it will kill off at least 3 disciplines in shooting sports.
5]Re allow the centrefire pistols. Even if it is in club storage and after possibly a mandatory 3-year use of a .22 pistol under club conditions, and being signed off for a CF by the club for a particular discipline...It would be better than nothing at the moment.
6]revamp legislation that would allow home reloading separate from the explosive storage act 2007,as that legislation is not fir for purpose o small scale reloading.
What? You[all of you] haven't done this already??? Are ye waiting for a written invitation? Get to it!!!
Refer to things like;
Ireland has THE strictest gun laws in the EU, and for that, we have the LEAST access to things our EU neighbours enjoy, and even our neighbours up in NI have more benefits under their licensing system. Things like ;
WHY would you preclude members of "the gun lobby"[in your own words on newstalk] IE all of us concerned shooters, from your inquiry panel? or this proposed arbitration authority? You are proposing to make legislative changes that directly affect us, but preclude any representation or membership from those directly affected? Would you do this to any other group being affected in Irish society,or are Irish gun owners the exception?
CF handguns[available in and under varying conditions throughout the Union member states]Why are these particular types of firearms particularly despised/feared by the Irish PTB?
Ammo reloading is available throughout the union[subject to local legislation on storage or qualifications] but wholly unavailable to anyone in the Republic due to utterly vexatious legislation set up for commercial manufacture of munitions, and not an individual level. The legislation as it stands makes it impossible due to cost/red tape for someone to reload at home .
Ditto black powder/pydroex...Why particularly is the Republic shooter prohibited from shooting BP and muzzleloaders here? Again available throughout the union, and in some cases [France] not even considered a firearm.
Lack of a proof house in Ireland.A mandatory requirement now in the EU for a member state to provide such if they are manufacturing and offering dor sale on the market any firearms. This is something the Irish state cant fob off to a private company, as a proof mark is a state mark guaranteeing the safety of a product. The State and gunsmiths are wide open to litigation under product liability,if there is an accident with such untested firearms, plus said built-in Ireland firearms for individual customers cannot be legally sold within the EU without being in proof to the general public. This is also needed for us to legally deact any firearms under the EU directive of recent vintage. As it is impossible due to cost/transport/paperwork/backlogs to ship these firearms to continental EU countries for proofing/deacting.
Why is a weapon that pretty much became obsolescent in warfare around 1347[IE a crossbow] treated in Irish legislation as being as dangerous and restricted in sales as a modern semi-auto sporting centre fire rifle? They are treated as sports equipment everywhere in the union
Ditto, why are paintball markers treated as restricted firearms, and as restricted firearms how can unlicensed people use them on paintball adventure weekends without risking a 5-year jail term, while we cannot even legally allow another licensed person to use or test our licensed restricted CF handgun on a range? [The famous Whopsie ,Sparks called it in the Dail public inquiry]
Why is /was IPSC banned in Ireland, under very suspicious and utterly dubious claims of it being "combat training" when it has and,and can be attested to by anyone with police or military training as having nothing to do with such in any shape or form, and in light of a decade-plus passing since this legislation was enacted, should this nor be reviewed?
Can the position of substitution of CF handguns be clarified and be formally recognised in legislation, rather than relying on a very dubious "legal loophole" as policy? Likewise, can this be sorted out before any legislation is introduced regarding modern sporting semi-auto rifles so that those pre-2015 are not left in the same boat of legal limbo?
Why this hate on modern sporting semi-auto rifles all of a sudden?Particularly when the DOJ's own figures reveal that it is a minority-owned firearm with less than 40 licensed in the last 6 years? what is the coherent concern, and please no "particularly dangerous and public safety " guff.They have been used in exactly 0.0001% of gun crime in the ROI since 2006 going by the available AGS/DOJ /CSI statistics available in 2015.
Should get you going those points as material.
For the lads that are mentioning the likes of Poland or the Czech Republic...
How about some specifics, that are "realistic" asks, and that others here might use in their individual letters / emails?
"LOBBY your own TD'S and other TD's of influence. Forget about this guy, he hasnt done anything thus far to help."
Why not do both (lobby your own TD'S, and the Minister), so your local TDs are in the loop, and he's under the spotlight with them, given they are the ones that'll pay the price at the next election etc.?
Ive already given my piece of mind to this politician, he doesnt care, so dont worry your entitlements will be trounced, thats a foregone conclusion.
If he knew the length of a firearms licence 3 years and maybe didnt refer to cases in the UK, who are no longer part of Europe and then bring up the statement that he wants to be more in line with Europe.
Absolutely no trust at all here. Electioneering at its best. Dont even acknowledge this BS.
LOBBY your own TD'S and other TD's of influence. Forget about this guy, he hasnt done anything thus far to help. Dont expect that outcome to change.
All he wants is coverage, and Newstalk will do that all day every day.
Or Czech!
Now that would be amazing to see :D
So they're discussing OUR sport and WE have no input. Isn't democracy great......
My dad is a member of the local club and has been so confused with these guidelines. He's elderly and not internet-savvy - is there a synopsis anywhere that is up-to-date?
🤗
Great idea, bring our legislation in line with ...... Poland! 🤗🤗🤗
I don't see how a polite letter referencing the recent Newstalk show, and asking that X, Y, Z be addressed, in order to bring our legislation into line with that of other EU member states, could be seen as a risk.
If we don't have certain entitlements, that our fellow Europeans have, why not call for them - giving logical reasons why we should have the same rights / access etc. ?
As things stand, we don't have certain benefits, and it doesn't look like we'll get any say on who will go on this advisory committee, so it's the only opportunity to be heard, imho.
It may also show that we're not quite the group of pushovers that we've been taken for, in times past.
Let's not forget, we're the good guys here, we play by the rules, unlike the criminals in our society.
I am but I don't want to stick my foot in it either.
Anyone tempted to start contacting James Browne, by email or letter, asking that we be brought into line with the EU, in respect of some of the things that might otherwise be "forgotten"?
The situation could get very interesting, if he has to respond to dozens of emails / letters, all calling for the same things as our fellow Europeans have.
It fits a narrative. Gunpolicy org.is a "respectable academic institution" in a university in Sydney. So of course academics would never lie or be swayed by pork barrel funds or their own biases. Considering the head of this Sydney uni is a rabid anti-gun nut who was advising the Aussie govt on the banning of lever-action shotguns four years ago. And of course, our MSM would never publish non-factual news either... Like none of these muckrakers didn't quiery 15 year out of date figures, and no one bothered asking our local LE who deals with it were these figures more or less accurate?
Never let facts get in the way of a good headline and the possibility to keep the sheeple scared.
Another interesting aside to this harmonisation proposal is what might happen as a result of the looking-more-and-more-likely-in-the-nearish-future unification of this island into a single nation state. There's a good bit of talk about anthems, flags, constitutional change, compulsory language teaching, dual/multiple citizenship, etc; what might be the position of the many gun owners in Northern Ireland who currently possess firearms that are effectively illegal here (and in GB), reload their own ammunition, participate in practical shooting sports, etc? 'Harmonising' them into our firearms legislation is unlikely to be met with much enthusiasm.
As well as fireworks...Legal up there too...Oh and don't forget the new all Ireland police force that will have to be established? Will it be armed or unarmed? Does the Irish govt intend to provide to every former military and political figure and residing serving and ex-member of HM govt and forces with personal protection in a personal police protection officer?Or continue to allow them to be exempted new Irish citizens to be able to still carry concealed firearms.Let's not forget the complete melts on BOTH sides who still have access to illegal and legal firearms,and either do/dont want a 32 county Ireland, and are willing to start shooting again to get it or not ?What might be a trivial matter to someone firearms ownership could be the major deal-breaker on the whole NI situation one day.
The "bringing us into line with the EU" bit would be very interesting, but I suspect it'd be a very 'Irish' interpretation of the attitude to firearm ownership and shooting sports we see all across the EU.
@Feisar The funniest thing aboutt hat map, and pretty much any online article you find is that politicians cite those figures as the ownership rates when they have access to the actual ones via thier online registration or police services.
Why do they continue to use gunpolicy or small arm services for their numbers.
Look at Denmark. Their rate is at 12%. That is based on the same bastardised algorithim as Ireland with 390,000 legally held guns and 260,000 illegal guns (which are lumped together) to give a false total of 660,000 firearms. The worst part is this figure is from 2007. Even if you use the same bastardised algorithim but use more recent figures the numbers drop to 340,000 legal guns and 227,000 illegal (or as they're now calling them unregistered) guns for a total of 567,000 firearms and an ownership rate of 9.9%.
However take the real numbr of legally owned guns ONLY and you get an onwership rate, based soley on registered firearms and not taking into account multiple firearm per person and the highest that number gets is 5.8% and possibly lower than 4.5%.
So in short any number you see in that map (and I know you know this) can be cut by approx 55 - 60% to give the real ownership rate.
