Why do teachers dispute the two-tier pay scale?

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117976768#Comment_117976768

I can understand why a person with a union mindset would think this way, but companies all around the world rate people on making the company run better and don't run into those problems, the reason they can't be applied in a school setting is purely union intransigence, the good teachers protecting the weak teachers.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117976707#Comment_117976707

You have identified two bad teachers, do you not think it's possible, nay probable, that other people than yourself can identify bad teachers as well and rate and promote them accordingly?

And your first paragraph is easily solvable, you rate people based on the impact they can achieve with the pupils that they teach.

You are also now saying that teachers can't even rate their own pupils, this is complete tosh, you can rate your students and relatively accurately predict what grade they would get, it won't be perfection, but it doesn't need to be, if your students under achieve or over achieve, that's on you, the teacher.

I mean, the entire profession is based on putting people into a ranking to determine who is best at a subject usually via a bell curve, and at the same time you are saying this is impossible to do at the teacher level, this is purely down to closed mind thinking. I guarantee if we sent someone into a school to observe, within a few months they would have the good/bad teachers sorted, there is no reason principals couldn't do this except that they want to protect the status quo of rewarding longevity which does a complete disservice to students.

If you send your children for grinds, do you think you would be able to identify if the grinds teacher was good or bad at their job?

History Queen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117977124#Comment_117977124

That doesn't allow for improvement at all. Or disimprovement due to external factors eg bereavement, home issues, substance abuse, school refusal etc.

Also who or what measures ability in primary school? Children aren't robots. Potential cannot accurately be measured.

History Queen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117977199#Comment_117977199

Your ignorance of the education system and the role of a teacher is obvious when you say that the entire education system is based on putting people in to a ranking. If teachers can judge their students so accurately explain the last two year's results?

You're very fond of saying things can easily be done but not so great on the specifics. I'd also love to know wherethos person you are putting in schools to judge teachers is coming from and their field of expertise. Ypur suggestion of using the principal won't work considering they are already overburdened.

We will never agree I think. It's easy judge a profession from the outside.

Lillyfae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117977891#Comment_117977891

History Queen, you're ignoring the fact that teachers can and are being appraised using metrics other than student outcomes- things such as CPD are used as a metric, for example. Just because the DoE aren't doing it doesn't mean that it's impossible. Nobody here is claiming to be an expert in it but guidance for appraisal of all sorts of public sector workers is available with a quick Google.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954836#Comment_117954836

For secondary school teachers. It's what 50 years since a primary teacher strike? There was a principal teacher strike in 99. But primary teachers probably have the toughest teeaching gig.

It's a short day for the bad teachers, but for most, it's a normal working day. 8.30 - 3.30 in the school then another few hours on admin/paperwork.

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117978159#Comment_117978159

Did they not have a strike that clashed with the swine flu pandemic? I remember them moaning about the coverage that it got. And being a little embarrassed that coppers was mobbed for it - it didn't look good. And didn't they refuse to go back to work during the pandemic because they wanted better protection in the classrooms? Other essential workers didn't stop working, but the schools opening back up was delayed because teachers wouldn't go back in until the government addressed their concerns. So that didn't count as a strike, but what happened was that the teachers refused to work until their demands were met.

And it's not a few extra hours on admin every evening is not normal. Generally it's the short working day that's longer than the school hours, but not an 8 hour day. 2 of my sisters are teachers and I lived with a teacher. If they had extra work to do they'd generally stay in the classroom and do it (and still be home before me). Doing work in the evenings at home was very rare.

But the point on strikes is that they are constantly threatening it and it's not an empty threat. That's twice I've mentioned above in about 12 years that they've refused to work because their demands weren't met. You might not call the second a strike, but it was one.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117977891#Comment_117977891

So here's a question for you, Nord Anglia private school was hiring when it opened a few years ago, completely privately paid, performance based system for teaching.

Would everyone of you and your colleagues have passed their interview? Which ones do you think would have passed?

I've outlined a number of ways that teachers get graded, you yourself have identified 2 bad teachers that you work with, you haven't answered the question of whether you as a teacher would be able to recognize a good grinds teacher vs. a bad grinds teacher, could you?

Now I recognize why you want to keep it this way, the public service is very bad at rewarding exceptional individuals because they break everything down into checkboxes (get 5 * A1 grades, do an after school activity etc.) and that wouldn't work well, but I ask, do you ever illicit feedback from parents of the kids you teach to rate yourself? How do you know that you're doing a good job and have you identified areas that you can improve? Have you written these down to see how your own performance is tracking similar to what you would be doing for the kids?

After all, if you are saying you can't judge a kids performance, when that is one of your core jobs as a teacher, then of course you won't be able to figure out how to rate the performance impact of teachers.

But open your mind to the fact that others can and do.

JimmyVik

I did my leaving cert when I was 17. I got 2xBs and 5xDs and 1xE all lower level.

Roll on 4 years and I went back to a grind school for a year. I end up with 3xAs and 3xBs all in higher level.

Now I was working as well so only attended the grind school maybe 30% of the time.

What do I put my misaculous results improvement down to? Drugs. :)

No, I actually wanted to be there 2nd time around. 1st time around I had no interest in learning. Parents let me away with it so i didnt bother.

History Queen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117978384#Comment_117978384

Maybe open your mind to the fact that you are not the authority on education that you seem to think you are.

Easy identify good vs bad grind teachers as their only area of concern is grades. That's not true of the rest of us. That's what you fail to understand .

The simple fact that you think judging a student's performance is one of my core roles as a teacher demonstrates your ignorance.

As regards that private school. I have no idea who would or wouldn't pass the interview. Nor do I think it in itself would be a measure of how good or bad a teacher that person was.

As regards what I said about my colleagues, read it back. I'm only aware of their performance due to public knowledge, I wouldn't have any idea what many of my other colleagues are like in class. How could I?

You are clearly entrenched in your beliefs based on your limited understanding of the role of a teacher. I won't change your mind.

History Queen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117978135#Comment_117978135

It's not impossible. I just can't see a system that's fair/workable being proposed on this thread.There are so many variables to take in to account. But the suggestion by another poster that any such system could be easily designed and implemented is false.

Lillyfae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117979353#Comment_117979353

This thread isn't the authority on work related appraisals. It may not be easy to design and implement, but they have already been designed and are being implemented elsewhere so there's a shortcut already. I don't know why anyone who does an adequate job would argue against it tbh. I find appraisals very helpful and an opportunity to let my manager know which direction I want to take or what I want to focus on.

History Queen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117979412#Comment_117979412

I'm only arguing against what was proposed. Fair appraisal is welcome.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117979289#Comment_117979289

I think it's a bit disingenuous to ask that others open their mind while also insisting that a teachers performance can't be rated. You dismiss interviews, you haven't answered questions on soliciting feedback, you can't rate your own colleagues. No one on here is claiming to be an authority on education, but neither are people claiming that the teaching profession can't be rated, it can and has been rated, the best teachers work for the best schools and are rated on impact, they will often get head hunted to move to different schools or will become leaders within the school, all of this being done without tenure being used as the metric. Also, as noted, grades are only one of many metrics that can be used but you seem to rathole on that as an excuse.

You can't or won't even rate your colleagues who you work with every day, what chance have you of rating others? Are you one of the best teachers in the world, or are all teachers a homogenous bloc of people that are all the same as each other?

Look at it this way, your students will be fairly well able to rate the teachers in the school, yes, there will be vendettas there that can skew things, but filter that out and you'd have a rough ranking, ask a professional to go in and get feedback from teachers/students/exam results and they will give a much more accurate ranking and performance can be ascertained from there. But that risks upsetting the status quo and a union teacher would never risk that.

Celticfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117978384#Comment_117978384

One of the first results I came across when looking up This Nord Anglia school that you've touted was answers to the the question...

Nord Anglia schools, anyone have firsthand experience?

They are notoriously bad, and career international teachers with options avoid them. NA, like GEMS, is a McDonalds-type chain of mediocre international schools, purely profit-driven, and in cities with more than one international school, NA tends to attract the wealthy students who can't get into the more rigorous international schools with higher standards and/or entrance exams.

I have been teaching at international schools in Europe for over ten years, and I also have a son, so have been very careful to choose schools with the best academic situation for him. I know many people who have worked at Nord Anglia, and the chain has a terrible reputation among educators. In one city where we worked, the rival international school was purchased by NA, who ran it into the ground. We were friends with multiple teachers there, and so heard and learned a lot about the changes NA made to the (previously not-for-profit) school when they took over. Then we saw this situation repeated with friends in another country.

Admin across the Nord Anglia chain are known to cut many corners for the sake of profit. Grade inflation and appeasement are the standard, at the expense of actually offering high quality education. They are not concerned with best practice, and their campaign is all empty flash and propaganda. They also do not pay enough to attract and retain more experienced teachers.

You can purchase a membership to International Schools Review (google for website) to read anonymous, detailed reviews of various NA schools by teachers.

Avoid, avoid, avoid.

Their advertising campaign is slick, but there is little of substance beneath the dazzle.

History Queen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117979831#Comment_117979831

How do you suggest that I rate teachers who I have never seen teach? I have no anecdotal evidence of their performance either.

I never said that performance can't be rated. Just not fairly by the narrow metrics you propose. I asked you questions on how to allow for the other areas of school life, some of which I listed, and you didn't answer. Teachers without exam subjects, sen, students with difficult personal lives, teachers teaching to exams but contributing nothing to school life, teachers contributing to school life but not known for achieving high exam results find a system that accounts for the variables, rewards the hard working and penalises the poor performers and I'll support it. After,of course, adequate resources are given to the true issues in education, not wasted on something designed just to measure teacher performance "just cos"

You are welcome to your opinion. I tried to point out the flaws in your argument coming from my knowledge and experienceof the system. You clearly don't agree. I'll leave it at that.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117979945#Comment_117979945

I didn't propose a narrow set of metrics, I consistently said that they should be one of many, because, as you point out, exam results are not the be all and end all for teachers.

But you now agree teachers can be rated, so there has been progress made, the initial point was that tenure was not a good way to award teachers and it seems we have agreement there.

But, if you are so inclined, I would encourage you to go out and illicit feedback about your performance, ask the principal what you could do better, take on feedback from parents (they're very vocal on whatsapp about teacher these days) use that information to your advantage, your colleagues probably won't be, that gives you an advantage over them.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117979935#Comment_117979935

I mentioned them as reference to another completely private school in Dublin who will have been interviewing teachers based on the merits of the teacher rather than in position because of tenure.

They also likely pay more than the average teacher in a school in Ireland.

But probably don't pay as much as it would take to hire an elite teacher.

But again proves the point that there are better ways of ranking how good a teacher is without ratholing on grades and saying it can't be done, because, clearly, it can and has been done.

I would expect teachers to cling to the current tenure based system due to the sunk cost fallacy where they don't realize they could have been earning more sooner had they gone with a performance based reward system (and realize that the public sector would probably F it all up and make it purely based on grades).

DubLad69

Post primary school teacher here. I don't usually engage with these types of thread but find them quite entertaining.

Someone earlier mentioned that teacher pensions are completley state funded. That is not true, I have a significant amount taken from my salary each fortnight. I think the pension that younger teachers get, is roughly inline with what they pay for it (with the added benefit of it being defined benefit)

I think the dual scales should be removed. At this point my school in Dublin is loosing teachers every year due to the pay not being enough to have a decent standard of living in Dublin. They simply can't afford to stay, when they would be getting the same pay elsewhere in the country with lower costs of living. We are a large school, well known, and great staff moral, yet, we are currently 5 teachers short. We have been trying to recruit teachers since April with no luck.

They are either moving elsewhere in the country, or taking up a more lucrative job in the city in their area of expertise.

I would LOVE if we had a way of genuinely measuring teacher performance. There is not a fair way to do so in a public school though. Private schools can do it to a certain extent, because their main (or only) goal is exam results. In a public school that should not be the main goal, the main goal is the well rounded development of the student. Unfortunately, if a teacher succeeds in this department or not is subjective. You could get school management to broadly put them into categories of above average, average, and below average, but as profits and costs are of no concern to a principal it is unlikely to work.

I know that I would benefit immensely from a performance related pay scales, but it's is just not workable.

blue note

If you're losing teachers and one of the reasons is that they're moving down the country where they can live much more comfortably in the salary that's an argument for dual scales. It's normal that salaries are higher in the city - in the UK I think public sector are paid more in London and other cities. I think this is generally the case internationally.

That's a reason for dual scales, what you have now is not a reason for it. But the state finance are not in great shape at the moment. I think the national debt is at 220bn at the moment and we're still increasing it. We can't afford to just increase wages, so if you harmonise wages, you'd need to bring the higher paid teachers down and the lower up. That would be fair, but would they agree to it? And if you want to make city living affordable for teachers, would the country teachers be willing to subsidise it?

And it's staggering how ignorant teachers are in relation to how good their pension is. Even for the younger teachers they don't contribute anything like the cost of the pension to it.

salonfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981230#Comment_117981230

That's going to become a big problem in Dublin schools as the ecomomy grows and the city becomes more wealthy. Teachers salaries are not going to be increased by much with the debt and other spending commitments.

It's time a location allowance was given to Dublin schools and bypass the unions.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117977162#Comment_117977162

nothing to do with union anything, it's to do with the issues the other poster mentioned.

you are factually incorrect since unions cannot increase the hours in a day.

123Dublin456

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957936#Comment_117957936

Just to point out, if someone has 30 days holidays plus 9 Bank Holidays, kts not 11 months work.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983028#Comment_117983028

a location allowence would be unfair to others doing the exact same job, and bypassing the unions can't be done as ultimately they are going to be involved no matter what, as is quite right where something that is pitting people against each other based on where they live, something that has no place in a small country like ours.

123Dublin456

The key issue here is that a public job does not have other options in the same way as for example a private sector job. No doubt tbe employees with the worst conditions will leave at some stage unless they are promoted. Teaching is a scale and if they start at bottom they will never improve conditions if the bottom is less than those alongside them. That's the crux if it. Keep in mine that similar to other areas of the public sector, issues of pay etc won't matter to the public until it affects the schools and they become short staffed. I have a feeling there will be major shortages similar to now with subs not available but this will be disguised by learning support covering, so the SEN kids will suffer but people will keep moaning about teacher demands etc. At the end of the day people can have all the opinions they want but when there is a real shortage which I do predict in the coming years, there will be a problem.

123Dublin456

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958847#Comment_117958847

Wondering if you think all the work is don't inclusive in these hours? Prep, assessment , paperwork , meetings , pupil plans , reports , pt meetings? All while kids are there. Very impressive if they manage that.

salonfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985467#Comment_117985467

You don't know much do you.

Various location allowances already exist in the public sector, including teaching.

Jeremy Sproket

I wonder will the PRSI pension become means tested in future?

IE, those of us who save diligently and who bother to put money into a private pension will be told to sit and swivel if we ask for a state pension.

One thing you can be guaranteed though is that the PRSI aspect of teachers' pensions and other public sector workers' pensions will be unaffected.

They'll probably dip into our pensions and savings in future to fund teachers' greedy demands.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981230#Comment_117981230

Inclined to agree that the dual scale - two tier system should be equalised. The simplest way to do this is to reduce the salaries of the teachers on older terms of employment and counterbalance by raising the salaries of the newer entrants. Fair all round. What's not to like?

Jeremy Sproket

I wonder will the PRSI pension become means tested in future?

IE, those of us who save diligently and who bother to put money into a private pension will be told to sit and swivel if we ask for a state pension.

One thing you can be guaranteed though is that the PRSI aspect of teachers' pensions and other public sector workers' pensions will be unaffected.

They'll probably dip into our pensions and savings in future to fund teachers' greedy demands.