Why do teachers dispute the two-tier pay scale?

Jeremy Sproket

In my company there are roughly 3 tiers of employees.

Those that started several years ago. They are earning a serious mint, they have 30 days holidays, health insurance, 15% employer pension contribution.

Those that started roughly 6-7 years ago. I am in this bracket. I earn less than the above, but still a good wage. I get 25 days AL, 10% employer pension contribution and health insurance.

The third tier are those that started more recently. They earn only early 30's, considerably and I mean considerably less starting salary than the previous two tiers. 5% employer pension contribution and VHI only for the employee (the previous two bands of which I am part pay for partners and kids too).

I accepted the conditions of my contract and it'd be nice to be on the gold plated contract that legacy staff are on ... but I'm not. I accept that. Similarly, the newer staff might grovel the odd time, but they too accepted their conditions and they have no reason to complain.

I'm private sector BTW.

Why do teachers, who KNOWINGLY signed their conditions and pay agreements grovel about it afterwards?

dotsman

Because they got fcuked over by the unions. But they were then stupid enough to join the same unions.

Ray Palmer

I don't think you know what "grovel" means

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953561#Comment_117953561

Thats my main take from this thread too.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953420#Comment_117953420

No they didn’t. It was introduced by the government of the day through emergency legislation.

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953926#Comment_117953926

And the union didn't do anything about it. Because they knew they could deal with the problem years down the line. In fairness, I imagine the government knew they were kicking the can down the road too.

Geuze

By the way, AFAIK, the 10% lower starting salary applies to all new public servants, not just teachers.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954471#Comment_117954471

They are opposed to it and favour restoration. You can argue that they haven’t done enough in that respect. Would you favour strike action?

jmayo

Ahh the teachers and their unions.

Ever notice another sector of society is doing well and about to get something and they immediately demand they get something similar.

Years ago during the real celtic tiger economy, the tech and dot com bubble oneupto 2001, they saw engineers, computer science graduates, etc doing well they immediately wanted to be benchmarked against them.

Of course they didn't notice fact that these graduates were often working twice or three times their hours, especially when they factored in their very generous holiday time. Nor they didn't notice these graduates were not entitled to lump sums on retirement or for the most part huge non contributory pensions upon retirement.

Then they wanted to benchmarked against builders who happened to be busting their guts during the building boom.

And when said graduates and builders lost their jobs or got paycuts when the bubbles burst, the old teachers seemed to forget about benchmarking altogether.

Now when someone in government flies the idea that public sector front line workers that worked through the pandemic are going to get something, hey presto the teachers unions suddenly are front line workers also.

Funny I don't remember them in hospital wards where there might be covid patients, working in A&E with possible covid cases, transporting covid patients in ambulances, working in nursing homes riddled with covid patients or out manning checkpoints?

Hell I don't remember them working all hours like some delivery drivers delivering groceries to house bound at risk people.

I do remember them working on full pay and doing a few hours on zoom or some such.

Hell they didn't have the hassel of looking after a room full of kids for 6 months or so.

So fook them.

Back when the two tier system was brought in the existing teachers would not take a pay cut so the unions did a deal where they shafted new entrants or more correctly didn't get the often overly generous terms and conditions of the existing teachers.

They didn't care about recent or future members.

Now though there are a lot of newer members who are looking at the unions and wondering why the fook they should be a member since they have done fook all to get them terms and conditions of employment like some of their lazy less educated older colleagues.

elperello

The pay scale is unfair to younger teachers and they are right to grumble.

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954544#Comment_117954544

The honest thing for them to do would have been to negotiate that saving to the state to be spread more evenly over all of their members. Instead they let the young teachers take the full brunt of it and are now blaming the government for the fact that they didn't stand up for them back then.

Threatening to strike is normal for them. No they shouldn't do it as often as they do, but that's what they do. In this case the younger teachers were doing the same job as the older ones but for about half the wages. And the union were happy for the saving to be borne by those younger teachers.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954836#Comment_117954836

You want a trade union to capitulate and agree to paycuts because the government unilaterally introduced a lower paid tier through emergency legislation?

Look, I understand some people have a problem with whole notion of organized labour, but the idea that the unions “pulled up the ladder behind them” is risible nonsense. This wasn’t the unions’ idea, they didn’t want it, and they want it reversed.

SortingYouOut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058210927/why-do-teachers-dispute-the-two-tier-pay-scale

OP will those newer guys or yourself ever get the opportunity to make it to that top tier contract?

For a '28 year old Swedish woman' who never went to school here, you sure do start a lot of threads about teachers...........

🤔🤔

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117955036#Comment_117955036

Costs had to be cut. Their options were to work with the government on a way to share the cost savings amongst their members or to not contest the younger (future) members taking the burden of the cost saving, with a view to contesting this in the future.

I obviously have problems with unions, I think you'd need to have your head buried in the sand not to see problems with them. And I think you'd have to have your head buried in the sand not to see problems of not having them. The teachers union are particularly dislikeable though. It feels like they threaten strike action a few times a year. During the pandemic we had heaps of people continue to work throughout it and no-one had adequate PPE from the start. But the teachers threaten strike if adequate measures aren't put in place. Their stance on getting priority on the vaccines was particularly bad - I never heard a justification for why a 30 year old teacher would be vaccinated before a 30 year old meat factory worker.

In this case, I criticised them at the time for selling out the incoming teachers and said that this would happen. And surprise surprise, here we are.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117955065#Comment_117955065

Lots of reasons but the main one is a lot of our politicians were once teachers. It is easier for them to go into politics and they get to keep their jobs. To an extent they are a political class and are probably overly respected by the older generation as are priests.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117955219#Comment_117955219

And what exactly does that have to do with the OP, a 28 year old Swedish woman, who never went to school here?

History Queen

To answer the original question.....Because many of us believe that asking people to do the same job, with the same (and sometimes superior) qualifications and same experience, for less money, is inherently unfair.

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117955219#Comment_117955219

They don't get to keep their jobs. Anyone who is a teacher can take a career break and go and work at something else, go travelling etc. It's not an indefinite career break. That loophole for politicians was closed years ago. Max career break is 5 years which has to be applied for on an annual basis. They don't get paid while on career break and after five years they either have to return to teaching or resign.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117955065#Comment_117955065

You forgot to mention not being qualified to be a teacher.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954836#Comment_117954836

No, existing members had commitments, families etc and the union should not have sacrificed them more than was the case already, especially at time when most workers did not have a pay cut. Some people lost their jobs then because their services were not in demand, but demand for teachers rose.

A lower scale was appropriate during the recession, rents etc were lower then. However, when the economy recovered 5 or 6 years ago the new people should have been put on the same scale as everyone else over a period of a few years. The government are quite shameless in their attitude,

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953926#Comment_117953926

You seem to have a very short memory. The government needed to claw back the stupid commitments they had made during the false property economic boom as the country could no longer (never!) afford them. Unions refused and the compromise was existing staff would get pay freeze, there would be a huge hiring embargo for years, screwing over a lot of young people trying to start a career and impacting public services (but when have the unions ever cared about that) and that all new hires after the embargo would be on less so it would average out over time.

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117955036#Comment_117955036

I don't think you understand how unions work in Ireland. That is exactly what they do. Look at any industry (public or private where unions exist) and you find a whole load of "employees who joined before such-and-such-a-date are entitled to x, employees who joined before a-more-recent-date are entitled x/2 and employees who started after-the-most-recent-date get sfa.

This is very common practice. The unions get to tell their existing members that they fought the good fight and preserved their benefits. And in the years to come they get the new members to join by pointing at the mean employer/government who "screwed them" and they need to join the union to prevent it from happening again.

the only wanted it reversed after they had agreed to it (and preserved the payrises for the existing members).

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117956843#Comment_117956843

Salary increases demanded by the PS unions during the bubble were funded with one off taxation from the housing market. When the housing market collapsed so did the money to pay them. If the government of the day hadn't capitulated to unions we could have had a large surplus built up to cushion the inevitable end to the bubble.

whippet

As someone who has never worked in the public sector i can never get my head around the fact that people get the ame pay regardless of performance / ability etc.

cms88

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957692#Comment_117957692

But they went to college for so long or at least that's how they try to justify it anyway...

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957692#Comment_117957692

And never can get sacked unless they murder someone in the office and even then...

JimmyVik

Not a member of a union myself where i work. Id be (creatively) fired if I was.

Personally I like when a union tries to ask for the ones on the lower tier to be brought up to the same as the higher tier.

Too often the attitude in Ireland is to try and pull others down rather than try to help others up.

Im sick of readin about people moaning what someone else gets and asking for it to be removed rather than ask how can i get that too instead.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957833#Comment_117957833

You would have a point if we weren't all paying for it. You might also reflect on the fact that taxes are high for high earners here and services are basically awful. Not exactly value for money is it?

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957891#Comment_117957891

Well even though I know one or two teachers and believe their job is much harder than mine, I actually do not know the value of their skills myself, so i couldnt possibly comment. I do know I get paid far more for a much easier job though.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957911#Comment_117957911

Could they maybe move into your area then if they are unhappy with what they are earning? It is also important to remember that teachers are not paid for the summer holidays. So they are really paid for 8 months work as opposed the 11 months that a normal job would have. So point 14 (mid) on the new scale is €57546 (7193 month), which would be equivalent to ~€79k if working the 11 months in a normal job.

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957936#Comment_117957936

Actually we compared our holidays before.

I get 27 days holidays plus 10 bank holidays.

I get medical insurance, life insurance, pension, accommodation allowance, meal allowance etc

When I work overtime I get double hours off whenever i want.

so im happy with my conditions.

Cant remember the exact figure. But i think it was 6 weeks off in the summer, a week at 3 mid terms usually spanning a week with a bank holiday. 2 weeks at easter and 2 weeks at christmas (spanning bank holidays too).

They are always working when i call over in the evenings. They are never home before I am. They cant have flexy hours.

They cant just decide to go on holidays for 2 weeks in say September or May, that i can (or could before covid anyway, but hopefully we will be back there.)

I think prefer my deal tbh. Sure they get a few more days off than i do if i dont take toil, but they are contrained in when they can go on holidays too. I wouldnt like that.

Also i can think of nothing more stressful that being stuck in a classroom all day with a heap of kids and only a half hour break. Definitely not for me.

I used to think id do it for the extra holidays, but my holidays are close enough to theirs and can be taken at will. Id hate to be constrained to the most expensive times to go on holiday too.

They arent unhappy with what they are earning. Everyone else seems to be unhappy with what they are earning though.

I would be unhappy if i was earning what they earn to be honest. That 8 months compared to 11 months that you did is just totally wrong numbers from what I can tell.

I certainly work no more than 10 months. And people with only 20 days hols plus 10 bank holidays would only be working 10.5 months at most.

I think people dont take everything into account properly when they compare other peoples jobs to their own. Everyone always thinks someone else doest work as hard as they do. Its just a moan fest really if people are honest. Irish begrudgery if you like. And we are all familiar with that. Its bred into us.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958723#Comment_117958723

So, it sounds like you are happy with your conditions and your friends are happy with theirs then. They get a little bit more than a few days extra leave than you do, just a little bit more. And yes, while they can't just go on holidays for a week in September, they may find it is offset by the ability to go for 2 months in July and August for example.

Primary school needs to be open for 183 days a year. In a normal job with say 20 days leave + 9 public holidays, you will work (52 * 5) - 29 = 231 days per year, or 9 and a half weeks more. It is part of the conditions of a teaching job, but when comparing it needs to be taken into account.

You can either go with a job that has the potential to pay more, more risk of job loss, increased hours and less holidays, or you can go with the conditions provided in a teaching position.

I prefer earning more and having less holidays, I wouldn't know what to do with the time off in the summer. Teachers complain about their terms and conditions openly all the time, most notably in the easter union get together. The pension is entirely unfunded, it would be unsustainable to continue the way it was. One of the "vulture" funds buying up property in Dublin is the Canadian school teachers pension fund, they wisely understand that is better and fairer to have a fund built up to cover the pension rather than shift the burden onto future generations.

I would have no.problem finding things to do for 2 months in the summer! 😁😁

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958827#Comment_117958827

I should say the 183 days are for primary school, where the opening hours will be either 9-1:30 or so for junior or 9-2:30 for older kids. A relatively short day, so I assume your friends who are still busy working in the evening long after you are secondary school teachers.

Secondary schools open for 167 days per year. Also to take your example of 10 public holidays (assume good friday) and 27 days off, you work 223 days a year, or a difference of 11 weeks and 1 day.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058210927/why-do-teachers-dispute-the-two-tier-pay-scale

when the only option you have is sign the deal or dont work in the sector, id imagine you d sign the deal

The teachers and unions are right to want a fair level for all teachers.

It's no skin off the noses of the teachers on the higher rate but they're right in thinking it's unfair on teachers who started after a certain date to be shafted pay wise.

tjhook

There are other "inequalities" in the public sector. People taken on before 2013 have better pension arrangements. Or various other benefits/contributions (e.g. PRSI) that differ depending on whether taken on before or after 1995.

This is natural in any environment, public sector or private sector. Economic conditions change over time. It's not easy to change something in the contract of existing employees, but there's nothing wrong with new contracts containing different conditions.

If we want true equality, increments shouldn't exceed inflation. Otherwise newer entrants are earning more than older entrants did at the same point of the scale. But it seems equality is only desirable when it's pushing pay upwards.

Also, people love bashing teachers and whinging about them.

It's like shooting fish in a barrel for some.

There's a lot of "experts" on the profession who never taught a day in their lives.

thebronze14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117955147#Comment_117955147

Agree with everything you say here. As a teacher I am particularly embarrassed at the behaviour of our unions. Threatening to strike over the vaccines was laughable....Looking for a bonus for the work over Covid is particularly shameful. No one will listen to them on proper issues including the pay restoration for younger teachers and class sizes. It's the old boy who cried wolf story that they seem to forget from their own schooling days. They are painting a negative picture of teachers with the waffle they continually come up with

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117959590#Comment_117959590

"bashing" along with "begrudgery" are terms that are often used to try to discredit the valid criticisms that people can have of the teaching profession.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/teachers-and-garda%C3%AD-demand-to-be-included-in-covid-19-bonus-payments-1.4686065

Next day, their own members react:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/i-m-embarrassed-teachers-react-to-unions-call-to-be-part-of-covid-bonus-talks-1.4686967

But see the thing is, the teachers are the union. So they justifiably get criticised for the way their union acts.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117959642#Comment_117959642

They don't always agree with what their unions request and yes they can be embarrassed by some of the things their unions request.

They're with the unions though on this topic of pay disparity and rightly so.

Plus, people do waffle a lot of rubbish about teaching as if they know all the ins and outs.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117959778#Comment_117959778

If they want to change the way the profession is perceived, perhaps they should take more of an interest in the way their union represents them. The union is fundamentally the members. Maybe next Easter bring up the issue??

khalessi

Ah I missed having a thread where the usual suspets could have a go at teachers

khalessi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958847#Comment_117958847

Most primary teachers work long into the evening. It is something grossly misunderstood by people the amount of work they have to do. Most people assume that they arse around from 9-2 then go home and chill. Most often not the case I could explain why but the armchair experts will be ready to have a go as we have covered it before and sure me or any teacher explaining isnt going to change their pov. Also holidays are lovely but most of us these days spend them doing courses and come back early from 3 or 4 days early upto fortnight early to deal with managerial stuff you wouldnt be interested in hearing about. The "relatively short day" doesnt end when the students go home and starts before they arrive.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117959925#Comment_117959925

It would be basically the same as any professional job. I mean my hours are 9-6 in my contract, I don't think I have ever done that, it is normally 7-6. There is not a chance that say secondary school teachers are doing courses for the entire summer. I mean lets be realistic. I remember you in a thread at the beginning of the pandemic claiming you were working from 4am until 11 at night. From my experience with own primary school age children, they got half an hour zoom a week (a teacher led chat with each other) and a few exercises off twinkl.

khalessi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117959948#Comment_117959948

Not claiming, I was working those hours to accomodate the kids I had kids getting up early to use laptop before parents were working from home so I was there if they needed me and had kids doing ramadan. Dont see why you have an issue with it tbh. I had issues with internet too. Wonderful. lets be realistic no matter what a teacher says there are people who constantly take issue with it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117959846#Comment_117959846

Eh you do know that unions propose something and then there's a period of time before the teachers actually vote on it? So while the union might propose something it can be a long period before teachers get a chance to vote and reject it.

History Queen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117959394#Comment_117959394

Those pension arrangements apply to teacher also.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117959925#Comment_117959925

More disingenuous information from teachers. Pity I wasn't paid for correcting teachers' claims all over these boards!

Doing courses entitles you to personal days that you can use to take time off during the school year.

History Queen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117961381#Comment_117961381

Not at second level.