Metrolink south of Charlemont

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024632#Comment_122024632

Apologies, that was my bad phrasing. Ranelagh is the only station on Green Line that won't transfer over to Metro; it will keep its Luas stop, but that stop will become the terminus of the Northern stretch of the Luas Green line. The report is here : https://www.metrolink.ie/en/news/published-reports/constructability-report-green-line-closure-2019/

Ranelagh is the last elevated station on the line, but the Metrolink Charlemont stop is underground and Beechwood (next below Ranelagh) is at surface, although the Metrolink station will be a little further south: the tunnel portal would be roughly where the current Beechwood station sits. Most importantly, Dunville Avenue crosses the Green line just North of the current Beechwood station, and Metrolink can't have level crossings.

So including Ranelagh in Metrolink would have meant a steep climb out of the tunnel, raising the height of the railway south of Ranelagh, a rail bridge over Dunville Ave (good luck with the planning on that one!) and then building up Beechwood to meet that new level. None of that is cheap or easy.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025056#Comment_122025056

It doesn't need to go all the way into town. The post 2042 Luas map shows it going to Charlemont where it would join the green line going North.

It is really only a 200 meter area that is tight. Just CPO it or make it one way for general traffic.

Or hell, worse case scenario, just leave the cars use the Luas track. Not ideal of course, but that is what they are going to do with BusConnects, with buses sharing the road with cars through that section. If buses can do it, so can a Luas tram.

Or return to the original BusConnects plan, which had no cycle lanes through that section, but two bus lanes and two cars lanes, with bikes using the bus lane. Instead you'd now have two bus/bike/Luas lanes and two car lanes.

Yes, this wouldn't be a high quality Luas route like the original Green line is, it is a more street running traditional one like the Red line is or newer parts of the Greenline. But it would still be much higher capacity then buses, even if it wasn't faster.

Tow

The lines mainly serve people within walking distance of a stop, about 3km. Then most expensive part of tunneling is the tunneling machine and starting to tunnel. The initial plans were take the Green Line out of action for about 3-4 years to convert it over to carry the metro. In my view they should continue the tunnel at Charlemont and run the tunnel along a different route (eg N11, a few km the other side of the Luas line etc) to give better public transport access to more people. Keep the Green Luas as it. They should be adding more lines to make public transport feasible to more people.

Sam Russell

I think that the whole project south of Charlemont has been put on hold until the first TBM is in the ground and contracts are signed.

I assume south of SSG will have contract variations built in.

I will await that TBM as it enters the ground.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025582#Comment_122025582

The problem with not upgrading the Green Line to Metro is that it ignores the capacity constraints on that line. A few years back, the biggest transport story in Ireland was the fact that people couldn't get onto the Luas in the morning, there was people saying it was unsafe, people getting on outbound just so they could get a spot on the Luas inbound, etc. It was a major political problem. The good thing for the government at the time was that the NTA had already had a project in place to sort it out, they extended all of the trams on the line. For a while there, it was front page news seeing a new section of tram arrive in Ireland.

We're about ten years away from that happening again. The Metro to Charlemont will do nothing to solve this problem, nor will an extension anywhere else. In fact, it could even make it worse, with more people looking to get the Luas to Charlemont to change to Metrolink.

They do have another plan for a Luas Green Line Capacity upgrade, but, by their own analysis, it will only buy years, not decades. In my opinion, the NTAs projections on this are hopelessly optimistic, as they believe that a ridiculous number of people commuting from Cherrywood are going to only go to Sandyford, and not into the city.

Long story short, any plan that doesn't involve the Green Line being upgraded to Metro also has to explain what they are going to do with the Green Line.

Tow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025871#Comment_122025871

In saying that. Would it no be better to add additional lines to take demand off the existing Green line, and at the same time give easier on foot access to more people.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122026068#Comment_122026068

We will be doing both, the post 2042 Luas network will have a number of new Luas lines in addition to upgrading the Green line to Metro.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122026068#Comment_122026068

Why can't they just put a big cage around the current Luas line and close off Dunville Avenue? Close Cowper and a few of the other stations close to residential housing and run a metro at a slightly reduced speed along a south side route. I work in Ranelagh and a lot of the Dunville Avenue businesses were in favour of closing the road across the track if it meant upgrading the line.

Tow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122026117#Comment_122026117

That was the original plan as the metro was driverless. All crossings along the Green Line were to be closed, and a number of pedestrian under/overpass added.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122026068#Comment_122026068

Even in an ideal world, this wouldn't have a huge effect. The Green Line is a very lengthy line, and any additional line that would take enough demand off it would need to be close enough for the entire length of the line. Going from Charlemont to Knocklyon would mean that there'd be some overlap of catchment area, but from around Windy Arbour outward would be unaffected, which is where all the the new passengers are being added to the line.

Ultimately, despite all the back and forth over this with commentators on here and in the papers, it'll come down to cost, at least in my opinion. You could build another Luas down the N11, and upgrade the existing Green Line to Metro, for less than the price of sending a TBM out to Knocklyon (or virtually anywhere, tbh). Weighing up the two possible ways of tackling the issues, one will leave you with a Metro that travels North to South/Southwest across the city, but leaves a huge question of how to deal with capacity problems on the green line, while the other, cheaper option will leave you with a Metro that travels North to South across the city, deals with the capacity problem, and also leaves you with a new Luas line on a high quality corridor.

KrisW1001

There's almost no way to extend Green from Beechwood without needing lots of CPO, so it might be better to leave that as a terminus. In that scenario, the Sandyford section is free to come north via a new route : I think through Kilmacud, up Stillorgan Rd, skirt the UCD campus, and cross the canal at the bottom of Baggot St before setting west to Adelaide Rd and join the existing Green there.

That would leave Harcourt-Beechwood as a spur on Green Line that serves Ranelagh and provides Interchange with Metrolink.

Pete_Cavan

I think the best option would be to extend Metrolink along the Green Line as far as Sandyford, then continue past Microsoft/Leopardstown Racecourse and take over the Green Line alignment again on the eastern side of the M50 all the way south to Brides Glen (probably have to be in a cutting at Cherrywood). That basically gives a straight line metro from one end of the city to the other.

The remaining Green Line from Carrickmines and along Ballyogan Road gets extended along Brewery Road and up the N11. That section of Green Line at Carrickmines/Ballyogan can't become metro anyway, it will always be an on-street tram with traffic conflicts as would Luas on the N11. It makes sense to keep them as a single line while everything that can become metro, does.

That would give a decent Luas line serving a good population and with multiple trip generaters on it, while also crossing Metrolink and opening up more journeys. Luas is a great system but has it's limitations, it can't ever act as the transport spine of the city the way Metrolink can. Extending Metrolink as I described would give a 30km fully segregated line serving more or less everything you'd want served, with a train every 2 minutes for 20+ hours a day - there would be very little around the world which does so much with a single line.

spillit67

It’s more than 200m at Donnybrook.

The junction at Donnybrook Garage and Donnybrook Church is a mess, and getting worse with the new lights.

It’s then extremely tight all the way through Donnybrook (including that tight bend at the Garda station). Some retail parking could be taken beyond that alright, along with some front gardens, but expensive (as mentioned).

I’d argue it is basically the entire section up to and over Leeson Street bridge. Basically the whole section that slows down buses as is*.

Anglesea Road is not a runner.

Outside of tunnelling, the only other option I can see is going down Nutley Lane and somehow navigating the corner onto the Merrion Road before moving through Ballsbridge and up either Pembroke Road onto Baggot or Northumberland Road onto Mount Street. Advantage here of linking with Vincent’s Hospital and the DART at Sydney Parade. Disadvantage of missing Donnybrook but also that I’d expect nearly as many issues as the Donnybrook stretch.

I think the only way is some kind of tunnel (s), either straight through Donnybrook and down the Adelaide Rd to link with the existing Green Line or something that potentially cuts across Herbert Park and up either of the two (Pembroke/Baggot or Northumberland/Mount St) access to the city core. I think the mess of a junction will need to be tackled regardless so you way as well put a traffic tunnel under the junction over to Anglesea Rd.

If Donnybrook hadn’t been one of the areas people most wanted to live in when this country was truly a backwater then there is no question it would have fallen victim to the DCC road traffic engineers. It is an absolute mess.

* as an aside this is one of the reasons why I laugh at people who go on about how amazing the Stillorgan QBC is, it’s great until traffic from the much deeper South East Dublin, Wicklow and Wexford narrows 3km from the city centre with some of the busiest destinations (like the RDS) along the way….

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122032953#Comment_122032953

The QBC north of Tesco at Donnybrook is basically fine? Only issues tend to be due to folk parking where they shouldn't be. There is definitely room for 2 way traffic + Luas on that road north of the Belmont Ave junction. Granted that leaves about 5/600m between it and Anglesea bridge where it's a mess. There likely still is room for Luas + one way traffic on that section, which likely could be done. Sure, Stillorgan QBC isn't perfect, but in terms of the whole alignment it's easily the most straightforward LUAS conversion available to us.

Sam Russell

So the posters here think the GL Luas should be run next to the existing Dart along the Merrion Road. The fact that conversion to Luas is straight forward did not help the straight forward conversion of the GL to Metrolink, did it?

So from Charlemont, it is to go towards Donnybrook then magically get to UCD (great journey generator) then onto the N11 south to rejoin ML at Sandyford and then head towards Bray.

So SE Dublin will have ML, Luas and Dart, but south of Harold's Cross, to Terenure and Rathfarnam, there is the bus competing for road space.

Between the current GL south of the canal and the Red line, there is a PT desert. The N11 corridor should be low down the list than the SW Dublin area.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033822#Comment_122033822

The post 2042 Luas network has a half a dozen new Luas lines, including two in the SW and multiple lines in the North of the city.

Folks are only discussing the N11 Luas line as it directly pertains to the thread title and how it could assist with the upgrading of the Green line south of Charlemont.

Realistically all the core bus corridors are going to eventually end up as Luas routes. Buses simply can't handle the passenger numbers being asked of them, plus driver shortages, so it will happen regardless. Upgrading the N11 to Luas is a no brainer and really should have happened years ago.

We probably should have a "post 2042 Luas network" thread here where the various routes can be discussed.

MJohnston

My probably insane idea — adjust the existing Metrolink plan (once already under construction) to:

1. Build a temporary Metrolink station at the scheduled end of the tunnel, right beside Ranelagh Luas
2. Add a second, unused spur (let's call it Spur B) of the tunnel south of Charlemont Metrolink station along the Luas track alignment, in addition to the already proposed tunnel over-run (let's call this Spur A).

Then when that's all complete and Metrolink is operating:

• Install crossover tracks just north of Ranelagh on the Luas line (my huge main assumption based on the BXD tie-in is that this could be done relatively quickly?)
• Sever the Green Line between south of SSG and north of Ranelagh. Run separate trams on Broombridge to SSG (with exchange to Metrolink) and Brides Glen to Ranelagh (with exchange to Metrolink)
• On the now inactive track north of Ranelagh, begin constructing the tunnel portal. Connect to the unused Spur B constructed above.
• Perform the relevant Green Line to Metro platform upgrades and road closures (which I believe could be largely done without disrupting Green Line ops)
• Stop running Luas between Sandyford and Ranelagh — begin running Metrolink on this section instead.

At a future point:

• Use Spur A to add another line towards the south-west of the city.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033822#Comment_122033822

The passenger loads on the 15 corridor are basically the same as the N11. However the 15 corridor basically has to be tunneled. There is no clear alignment in that part of Dublin that wouldn't be taking a pretty significant chunk of road space away.

As I said before the N11 corridor is already carrying a significant amount of passengers per year. In any other country with a road that wide, it would've been converted to Tram years ago.

When considering the passenger load; when you consider the possibility of reconnecting the stub Luas line south of Sandyford post GL conversion to Metro, and when you consider the width of that alignment of the N11 (9/10 lanes at its widest at UCD) it is a sensible option to pursue if we have finite cash reserves.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034113#Comment_122034113

If we are converting the GL to Metrolink, we probably don't want to have a spur of tunnel going SouthWest also. Metro South West should be it's own project probably going from North East(Beaumont/Baldoyle) to South West. A spur tunnel reduces the potential throughput on the existing ML tunnel considerably.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033031#Comment_122033031

It improves from there for sure, particularly as the school traffic recedes. Still issues in front of the shops though.

It encounters issue after issue though as it approaches Dartmouth Road, over Leeson Street Bridge and the right down Leeson Street.

The 39A actually goes well down Waterloo Road. The only issue with that is that it curls back towards Leeson Street near Fitzwilliam Square. A contra flow tunnel under Merrion Road would be amazing for this bus route.

With regards to the Luas, definitely room if you CPO beyond Tesco. Issues above from Dartmouth on. I would think at least two tunnelled sections- unless you do the Luas down Waterloo Road. A tight turn at the bottom but doable.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033822#Comment_122033822

This has been discussed before.

It is not an either or, as the post 2042 plans calls for both.

I again though disagree with the characterisation of the South East of Dublin.

It is a far deeper area. The distance from St Stephens Green to Marley Park is about 8.5km. After that is fields and the mountains. That is the same as from SSG to Brewery Rd (where some have suggested the Luas should turn down from Sandyford). Beyond this you have KM after KM of neighbourhoods including Sandyford all the way out to Bray. The N11 itself feeds in from two motorways and traffic all the way from Wicklow and Wexford.

Yes there is two rail lines but: the DART half covers the sea, unlike the North Coast DART that cuts far more inland. Much of the population growth of the southside is being loaded into Cherrywood and along the N11 corridor. Cherrywood itself is overloading the Luas Green line. UCD is as close to the Luas or DART as Terenure is to the Luas, ditto heaps of places in the SE, not sure why this is brought up. We talk about the QBC but actually look at the travel times, the Stillorgan QBC is exalted largely because it was one of the first ones.

I’d also say again that there is a range of “places of interest” that the South West does. The South West has golf courses and leafy roads.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035839#Comment_122035839

I think once you get to Leeson St Bridge, you have the option of turning it left and sending it down Adelaide Rd to rejoin with the GL north of Charlemont. This would leave a stub GL down to Charlemont/Ranelagh/Beechwood but this is acceptable I think imo.

On the other hand you could continue it on up Leeson St and have it join at SSG but this I think overcomplicates it significantly with not much benefit.

Lastly you could maybe send it up the east side of SSG having the benefit of a stop next to ML but again imo it would be cleaner to link it at Adelaide Rd

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122036219#Comment_122036219

.. the Adelaide Rd routing was my own suggestion earlier. It would also get you a Luas stop just off the end of Baggott Street.

Nothing wrong with a tram network having stubs, forks and branches if it also has shared links and loops : that way new services can be delivered without having to lay new tracks.

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037081#Comment_122037081

Common practice all over Europe

ArcadiaJunction

To me Charlemont has the making of a future hub (IF the metro gets built in the next 100 years) with fans of tram lines extending into parts of south Dublin. Feed them all into the metro.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037081#Comment_122037081

Do you mean at say the top of Waterloo Road or the Canal? Both a few mins walk to Baggot Street. Not unreasonable ones, mind.

I’ve an open mind on where it goes once it gets into the city centre.

With a Donnybrook under Herbert Park onto Pembroke onto Baggot Street under Merrion Road onto St Stephen’s Green you provide a few things. If coming from Sandyford, you are providing access via a different city core point. It links to Metro at SSG. Baggot Street gets a hell of a lot of footfall nightlight wise and also on match days.

If you go via Mount Street you achieve similar, and can run it via Merrion Square to Nassau Street to College Green. Less of a natural link in with Metrolink though (a short walk to Tara though).

Perhaps serving the more south eastern corner is ultimately better done via the DART+ Tunnel or a Luas Canal though.

It would be nice to start thinking of these things though as we are seeing with Cross Gunns on the northside how we can integrate in two projects at the same time to achieve some scale.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038185#Comment_122038185

One of the benefits of Metrolink covering a similar spine as the Green Line in the city core is that we can look at new Luas lines like the 3Arena to Sandyford. Or Broombridge to the 3Arena.

We can also add in really small line increases, 1km or 2km east and west of College Green and expand services.

I think we’ll start seeing ideas around this once Metrolink is started. A lot of the potential of the Luas has been left on the shelf deliberately as they try to get ML to get underway.

The KM distance we have for Luas really isn’t too bad, it’s just doing a hell of a heavy lifting at the moment on spines.

Sam Russell

I think the whole south of Charlemont has been shelved until the RO, and the TBM is in the ground.

If this had been left in the ML project it would never be even get to submitting the RO.

Too many well healed NIMBYs. Once the RO is granted, and construction started, then we will see action.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122039434#Comment_122039434

Yes, once contracts are signed they'll announce that they're looking at projects for SOC (south of Charlemont). Another consultation, where they'll advertise that everything is on the table, taking a holistic view of all possible routes, with nothing ruled out. First time that they narrow down the route will be when they start to talk about the opportunity cost of not doing the Green Line upgrade, explaining that any route that they choose will rule out an easy upgrade for the Green Line, which will include some updated figures on the number of predicted commuters using it.

It'll be at least five years or so before the first options report is out, by which time they'll be able to point to the actual passenger numbers from Cherrywood onwards and say "no one could have predicted that all these commuters would continue all the way into town, we thought that they'd all get off at Sandyford, etc".

All a guess, but a realistic one I think. The other options don't/won't stand up to scrutiny.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038712#Comment_122038712

Sorry, yes, the Eastern end of Adelaide Rd, in this case.

I had also been thinking of the idea of a second branch that crossed Baggott St on a roughly northward path toward Pearse St via Merrion Square, which isn't likely, bit is why I had Baggott St in my head when I wrote that…