Metrolink south of Charlemont

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120256005#Comment_120256005

Yes and my plan funnels far more people into the city centre that Dart Underground or a single radial.

A 15-20 minute Bus / Luas ride from pretty much anywhere in the southside will take you to a Metro. A quick ride on Grand Canal Metro will then take you to Metro North or Dart.

Dart Underground doesn't do that. Dart Underground adds one station, ONE, to the city network.

D.L.R.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120256008#Comment_120256008

Your plan brings nobody to the city centre. Southside is much larger than a 15-20 minute bus or tram ride.

Crossrail didn't add any new stations in the core either.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120256016#Comment_120256016

In London or Berlin or Paris, you regularly take 3 underground lines to get to your destination. It doesn't need to be direct.

Dart Underground will cost €5.5B and add one city centre station. It doesn't bring any new area into the Metro/Dart network that won't already have access. Phoenix Park Tunnel takes 5minutes and will bring people to Glasnevin Metro station.

CatInABox

There a sewer trunk under the canal. No one is building anything underneath it.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120256135#Comment_120256135

Is there a sewer line under SCR? This route would have the same result as I'm suggesting with GC.

brianc89

A sewer map of Dublin I found. Nice to see an "underground" map of Dublin!

How deep are the sewers? And how deep do Metro stations tend to be?

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120256016#Comment_120256016

I see you edited your comment after I responded, to mention CrossRail in London. Give me a break. You cannot compare Dublin's 'Dart Underground' plan to London's CrossRail.

Dublin does not have an underground Metro system and yet people are suggesting we spend €5.5B for a tunnel which will make the newly reopened PPT redundant and will only add one station to the city's network.

Five and one half billion euro.

LXFlyer

Please stop fixating on new stations. That was never a primary goal of DART Underground.

DART Underground was about providing a high capacity, high speed east/west connection through Dublin City Centre, something the city does undoubtedly need (along with north/south through Metrolink), as well as eliminating the movement conflicts experienced between the various rail lines as trains switch from one line to another which cause major problems, connecting the various rail lines, LUAS and Metrolink, and taking pressure off the bus service through the city centre.

The PPT line goes nowhere near delivering the speed and capacity through the city centre that DART Underground can. It in itself will still have potential for building local connectivity but you really are missing the point of DART Underground.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120256555#Comment_120256555

It will take about 5-6minutes to travel through the PPT to Glasnevin Metro, a super high capacity, high speed line through the city centre.

Good luck finding billions from government budgets to fund DU. The city centre inside the canals is slowly but surely being removed of cars, which opens up massive capacity for Luas and Bus corridors.

When DU was envisioned, the city centre was still full of car lanes. The business case is far different now. 2 decades from now, it seems, everyone here will still be banging on about building this tunnel.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120256967#Comment_120256967

During the time those people spent trundling around the PPT line to Glasnevin, the majority could already be at St. Stephen’s Green and out of the station using DART Underground.

There really aren’t that many corridors available for trams to be honest, and with buses relocated from Dame Street there are even less bus routings.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120257016#Comment_120257016

From Heuston West (or Heuston Main), the DU would take you to Christchurch (2mins), SSG (4mins), Pearse (6mins) and Spencer Dock (8mins).

From Heuston West, PPT plus Metro North could get you to OCS (13mins), Tara (15mins), SSG (17mins), Spencer Dock (9mins).

I believe my times are reasonable estimates, which show a saving of 10minutes journey on average. €5.5B to reduce journey times by 10minutes for people who are already have access to a Dart.

The only new station is Christchurch, which is already a short stroll from the city centre.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120257016#Comment_120257016

There really aren’t that many corridors available for trams to be honest, and with buses relocated from Dame Street there are even less bus routings.

We all take the GDA report with a large pinch of salt, but in it they identified numerous future Luas corridors, which at a minimum will become QBCs.

D.L.R.

4 minutes from Heuston West to SSG 😂

Total nonsense

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120257689#Comment_120257689

It would be great if you could stop saying nonsense and actually give a number. What is it then?

2km distance, about 1minute stopping time at Heuston and 1minute at Christchurch. It's about 3 minutes total at best.

My 10minute estimated saving might be 11. Still doesn't change my point...

CatInABox

While this more belongs in the Dart Underground thread, it's interesting enough here, so I'll reply.

I personally think that Dart Underground is dead. The various Dart+ projects are projected to take dart capacity to 60000 during rush hour. Dart Underground is then projected to bring that to 80000. Is that extra 20000 going to be be worth it from a Cost Benefit Analysis? Very much doubt it, in my opinion. Once we get Dart+ projects completed, along with the Metrolink, then projects in other cities and projects that improve the national rail network will be favoured.

D.L.R.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120257717#Comment_120257717

You clearly haven't much experience using metros if you think DU Heuston-SSG would take only 4 minutes. Your timings are all way off. You fail to account for transfer time, waiting time, dwell and ascent. All of that alone takes more than 4 minutes.

I've explained why this plan is unworkable for so many reasons. That's why its fair to call it nonsense.

DU is a pipe dream at this stage, but its got a footing in reality unlike your idea.

Consonata

If expanding PPT is on the table, that seems on the whole better than the original alignment for DU. It just doesn't make a lot of sense, and given there is barely public support for ML, DU is a dead duck in terms of cost effectiveness.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120257733#Comment_120257733

I added plenty of buffer to my PPT time estimates. If anything so, the time savings DU would bring are even less than 10minutes.

All for €5.5B. The current alignment of Dart Underground doesn't make sense unless it adds new stations to the network. The alignment I'm suggesting is at least a starting point to this.

And this is at least the 3rd time now you've responded with "nonsense" then gone back and edited your comments

D.L.R.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120257897#Comment_120257897

Your idea is nonsense/silly/daft. Pick a word. If it makes you feel better, I doubt DU in its current form will happen either. This country is chronically inept at rail infrastructure.

If you think the same planners can somehow dig up the Grand Canal and insert a metro line underneath it, you need professional help.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120259634#Comment_120259634

I never suggested digging up the Grand Canal, it's a tunnel. And I accepted the fact a sewer goes underneath.

Here's a slightly altered route. Everything within the canals is like a 15 minute city. Heavily pedestrianized, lots of cycling, Luas trams and buses.

The high speed orbital line would take about 20 minutes to do a full loop, when you compare to Metrolink times. This would benefit everyone in the city.

brianc89

I always make an effort with other people.

Edit: Post edited

Tow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120245339#Comment_120245339

After the Luas (green line) was finished, a relation asked one of the engineers what they would have done differently. The answer was put the Dunville bridge back.

Initially the cost of a bridge or digging out the track were much the same, so the locals got a vote on which to do. The rest is. history.

Tow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120263806#Comment_120263806

They are only City Center to country folk. I am from Rathmines, recently a friend was holding an event in 'The City Center'. Turns out it was in Rathmines (near Beachwood Luas stop), my mind is going WTF, this is no where near the city center. But to him, from down the country, it was city centre!

Sam Russell

Mod: Posts deleted for offensive handbagging.

Please be kind to other posters, you know it makes sense.

JohnnyChimpo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120264073#Comment_120264073

I mean the city centre boundary is generally taken as "between the canals", so Charlemont, GCD, and Spencer Dock are most definitely in the centre. Heuston is arguable because the definition kinda breaks down as you head west, but it's east of the Phoenix Park entrance so yeah.

Baggot Street is so obviously in the city centre I suspect this must be a pisstake.

Also, who cares.

specialbyte

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120257722#Comment_120257722

I don't agree. While an extra 20,000 rail users isn't a huge gain in the grand scheme of things the biggest advantage of DART Underground is that it is a high capacity underground rail line running east/west under the city. East/west public transport these days are three corridors:

• Red Line Luas
• Buses along the Liffey Quays
• Thomas Street through College Green

College Green will no longer support buses within a few years. That will leave us with two corridors. Red Line Luas was near peak capacity at rush hour pre-Covid with little opportunity for expansion. The other element is that the city is growing rapidly and we need to increase capacity to match demand.

Is there enough space on the quays to support both the number of proposed bus routes and necessary bus stops? I'm skeptical. Maybe if you removed cars from sections to the quays to double the footpath space we'd buy ourselves a few more years. Going underground like DART Underground would provides a whole new part of the network.

In the medium term, completing MetroLink / DART+ West would reduce the need for the number of buses to Blanchardstown, maybe. Similarly, completing MetroLink / DART+ SW (Kildare line) would reduce the need for the number of buses to Adamstown and parts of south Lucan. Though DART+ SW isn't planning to build any new stations at Ballyfermot/Kylemore Road. DART+ SW also looks momentarily paused according the DART+ thread. MetroLink connection with DART+ West and DART+ SW, looks like it might reduce some demand for buses along the quays, but I doubt it will be super significant.

That's why I don't think DART+ Underground is dead. It's 100% pushed out for the next 15-20 years at a minimum.

If it's a question between should we do Metro SW or DART Underground I'd still put my money on DART Underground making a more important contribution to Dublin's transport system.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120264857#Comment_120264857

It's probably reasonable to include Luas Lucan in that mix. Previous planned route took it down Thomas Street, Dame Street to College Green. Luas is no match for a Metro of course, but it would certainly add significant capacity to the East-West axis.

One thing is for sure though, once Metrolink is built, it'll be bursting at the seems with Dart West and South West feeding customers in at Glasnevin. Not to forget northern orbital buses including the successful N4 route.

prunudo

Interesting that one government body is eyeing up vast areas of state owned land around Sandyford to build homes yet the same government and ministers scuppered the upgrading of greenline to metro.

Talking shop, not an action shop!

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120413018#Comment_120413018

Well, the future of the Metrolink south of Charlemont has yet to finalised.

The decision to stop Metrolink at Charlemont allows the rest of the project to proceed while the hysteria of centuries of delays, many billions of additional cost, and complete shutdown for many years of all public transport from Sandyford to Charlemont, and worst of all - the complete closure of Dunville Avenue preventing access to Mortons.

Of course this major exaggeration by the NYMBYs, The IT, and RTE should be seen for what it is and dealt with in its own time. Meanwhile, get the boring bit underway.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120413173#Comment_120413173

I hope you're right, best to get at least some of the project started, I just hope it doesnt take to long to funalise. I always felt it was a no brainer to upgrade. Obviously in a least disruptive plan to current users as possible. High frequency/speed public transport needs to be embraced not feared and objected too.