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Metrolink south of Charlemont



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭ strassenwo!f

    Berlin and Helsinki are two that I know of. Both with several road crossings in the areas where there is a throughput of 30+ tph. The Berlin bit I'm thinking of is around Alexanderplatz, though the last time I was there they were running fewer than 30 tph because on of the lines feeding into this section was being renovated. The bit in Helsinki that I'm thinking of is close-ish to the main railway station, and at least one of the stops has a throughput of 32 tph.

  • Registered Users Posts: 970 ✭✭✭ Rulmeq

    If I recall, Berlin's S-bhan is elevated, where are the level crossings on that?

    Actually looking at the wiki, there are some level crossings in berlin, but they certainly aren't on the busy lines: (most are either trams or un-guarded crossings, which I doubt are on a commuter line with 30tph)

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,788 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell

    It is not relevant to talk of Berlin compared to Dublin. Driver behaviour is very different here.

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,523 ✭✭✭ cgcsb

    Utter nonsense. This is the size of a helsinki tram and they only operate at high frequency in the central section through a mostly pedestrian area with no major road junctions, just side streets.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭ strassenwo!f

    Yes, the S-bahn is a different thing, but there are plenty of level crossings on at least one of the combined tram routes into Alexanderplatz and, as I said, they were running 30 tph through one of the Alexanderplatz stops - though the last time I was there it was a reduced figure because of renovation out in the suburbs. I can't prove that right now, but I hope to soon.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭ strassenwo!f

    Overall, driver behaviour isn't very different. The rules of the road are effectively the same in both cities, the only major difference being that the Berliners are hopefully driving on the right and the Dubliners are hopefully driving on the left.

    It might indeed take a couple of crashes at Dunville Avenue to drive home the message that a tram is much bigger than a car - I'd guess that some Berliners had to learn that lesson too, but it should be a lesson which is soon learned.

    It should help that there are traffic lights at Dunville Avenue, which many of the road/tram crossings in the area of Berlin I'm talking about do not have.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭ strassenwo!f

    I was thinking particularly of the Lasipalatsi stop, at this location on Google Maps: 60°10'13.5"N 24°56'15.6"E

    That stop is currently handling 29 tph (in each direction) in the 07:30 to 08:30 period - a bit lower than I remembered - but still comfortably above what was going across Dunville Avenue in pre-corona times. (6 trams on line no. 1, 7 trams on line no. 2, 8 trams on line no. 4, and 8 trams on line no. 10).

    As you should be able to see, it's a very central area which is not pedestrianised. There are also buses and cars going along that stretch, and pedestrians crossing, and trams in that neighbourhood going left, right and straight on from in or around that stop in what must be quite a complicated public transport environment. Dunville Avenue is a much simpler arrangement.

    It's certainly true that the trams in Helsinki are much shorter (up to around 30 m) than the monsters that Dublin operates on the Green Line. But this actually doesn't the time to cross Dunville Avenue all that much. Basic physics calculations (assuming a Citadis tram can accelerate at 1.0 m/s2 and there's a 20m gap across the crossing for the front of the tram) tell us that it should take a 55m tram 13 seconds to cross that junction entirely from a standing start at Beechwood. That is in line with the circa 14 seconds which I have seen. A 30m tram would take around 10 seconds to do the same thing.

    So, effectively, no difference.

    Obviously, the tram driver would have to make sure that there are no messers trying to break the lights, and that would add a couple of seconds for the first year or two until people learn, and you'd need to arrange that trams going in the 'off-peak' direction wait before crossing the junction. But, all in all, there should be a comfortable 90 seconds for vehicles to cross.

    Plenty, you'd think, for a very minor road in a suburb.

  • Registered Users Posts: 88 ✭✭ Grassy Knoll

    Seems to me surfacing on the city centre side of the canal will save a fortune in construction costs - underground’s stations in charlemont, ranelagh and beechwood, possibly better works access at the exit point, plus portal ‘off line’ should help lessen disruption to the green line. Clearly there would be CPO costs around Peter place, many of the properties there may be local authority, but surely the outlay here would more that save on costs, engineering risks, huge disruption to the existing line etc if there are no engineering show stoppers I can’t see why this approach wouldn’t get serious consideration. Seems from some of the comments it is a possibility?

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan

    That was ruled out in the options assessment for Metrolink. Read the first page of this thread for references.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 839 ✭✭✭ Paddico

    Wasnt there a map of the route shared by the government floating around a few years ago. 3-4 years ago that is?

  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,455 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CatInABox

    There was some questioning of the NTA the other day, regarding future projects in the NDP, and one of the topics was Metrolink South. From one of the answers, it seems like this has been thoroughly kicked into the long grass, with green line capacity improvements able to handle passenger growth for "the next decade, two decades". Not new information, but I guess another confirmation of what they think.

    They were also questioned about new housing growth on the line, to which they say that they've taken that into account in their assessment. I'd like to know what percentage of passengers do they think will be getting off at Sandyford, and how many will be continuing into the city centre. I have a feeling that this may be what makes or breaks their estimates on the green line.

  • Registered Users Posts: 772 ✭✭✭ Murph85

    It's so convenient to just lie about the housing figures. Basically they just cant be bothered with the effort of it... its blatantly an outright lie...

  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,455 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CatInABox

    NTA study shoots down UCD proposal.

    The Benefit Cost Ratio is very very low, so it's a nonstarter.

  • Registered Users Posts: 88 ✭✭ Grassy Knoll

    That is the end of any southern leg of the metro so … it seems the technical piece of where / how to integrate with the green Luas line was unworkable and the disruption would be perceived as too much. It seems to me the likelihood of planning and legal issues was a factor - Ranelagh residents would be the rock this would perish on. The mooted southern portal around Beechwood always sounded unworkable to me - the disruption to the existing Luas, residents issues, the sheer scale of what would need to go in /out via that portal in terms of construction material etc.

    anyways a shame, a relatively short stand-alone metro line loses the impact a bigger piece could have provided.

  • Registered Users Posts: 772 ✭✭✭ Murph85

    the south west of the city transport is absolutely appalling, huge amounts of housing going in, gridlock getting worse. The only feasible solution, metrolink, will cost a serious amount though...

    if it joined the proposed metrolink line around portobello, then served, rathmines, terenure, rathfarnham, knocklyon, could it be linked to the luas at tallaght?

    Then have a future phase going to link that, all the way to the dart line around booterstown?

  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,455 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CatInABox

    Right, bringing this back from the dead, as there's some news about Metrolink South of Charlemont now. The updated Dublin transport strategy has been published, and it basically states that they're going to look into all options for routes going south. So, basically no change there then.

    In more interesting news, Eamon Ryan has written a piece in the Irish Times today, and while it's basically a broad overview of the plan, it also has a little more info on his/the government's thinking on this.

    One of the projects that has been in planning for 25 years is the Metro, running from Lissenhall, outside Swords, to Charlemont Street, with all the evidence supporting a later extension to Terenure, Rathfarnham, Firhouse and Tallaght.

    Interesting, but not likely to mean anything for twenty or thirty years, or even longer, to be honest. Just build the Metrolink, and then we can worry about where it goes then.

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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,455 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CatInABox

    Yeah, I'd agree with this. I'd assume that any route selection process will run a cost benefit analysis on all the possible routes, and upgrading the green line is going to have a significant head start on every other route. I'd love to look at Eamon Ryan's "evidence", as I have a feeling that it's based on the assumption that the vast majority of commuters in all the new developments South of Sandyford will all be getting off the Luas at Sandyford, meaning that a major capacity upgrade on the Green Line isn't needed. I think that assumption is hopelessly optimistic.

    Personally, I still think that the NTA are hoping that this question goes away until after Metrolink is built, at which point the capacity problems on the Green Line will be back in the news. They can announce that they're looking at all possible solutions, and when the analysis shows that the Green Line upgrade is the best value for money, well Hey-Presto! It makes undeniable sense, and the Crayola merchants won't be able to compete with that analysis.

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,523 ✭✭✭ cgcsb

    Looking at the drawings today, I wonder if Ranelagh luas stop was relocated further south at the triangle could the tunnel connect to the elevated track where the station currently is using the green space at Manders Terrace. Maybe its too small to get the elevation change needed. There's also crappy old apartments in Oakley Road long overdue a wrecking ball, that could be used for the tie in. Leaving them separate is another 2 non connecting luas lines fudge.

    In any case some connection has to be made. In the Ranelagh area

    A separate metro line should connect Tallaght to Coolock with a major interchange at O'Connell St station

  • Registered Users Posts: 18,953 ✭✭✭✭ murphaph

    It's really not that different. There are crashes in Berlin every day. Just in the last couple of years there have been 3 fatal accidents involving trams that I can recall. There are some clowns in Berlin behind the wheel.

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,788 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell

  • Registered Users Posts: 899 ✭✭✭ Consonata

    You could potentially close it entirely and make Beechwood the "Ranelagh" stop, though its not in an amazing location for the area.

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,788 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell

    I am wondering if they were to go straight through the Adelaide Road Presbyterian Church* and join the Charlemont stop above ground, while sending the Green Line down Adelaide Road at least as far as Leeson St, but better to take it as far as Grand Canal Dock eventually.

    An alternative, would be to turn the Green Line west along the South Circular to Rialto, connecting with the Red Line. [At last - the two lines connect!] But doing both would be useful, as it would become a network of lines with many routing choices.

    *Obviously, moving the Church to somewhere else, brick by brick, would be possible and preferable.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,484 ✭✭✭ prunudo

    Not uncommon to see landmarks such as churches or windmills moved in the Netherlands to accommodate infrastructure improvements.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭ brianc89

    Yeah I've been saying this for a while now. A Luas (overground) or Metro (underground) along the full length of the Grand Canal from Heuston West to Irishtown.

    You'd cross every single Bus Connects Spine (except H, but you could extend H-spine to Heuston West), both Luas lines, Dart+ SW, Metro and Dart Coastal.

    A radial route like this would benefit everyone in the city and would be a far better investment than DU for example.