Metrolink south of Charlemont

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121816957#Comment_121816957

so you have no idea how incredibly destructive it would be, then?

Also, the time for bonkers proposals was during consultation, not during the final stage of planning permission.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121816959#Comment_121816959

The planning is for Swords to Charlemont.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121816966#Comment_121816966

And your proposal affects that, hugely.

tom1ie

How many threads are there for metrolink?! 😂

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121816966#Comment_121816966

Yes it is, with the tunnel continuing towards Ranelagh.

At this stage talking about the line coming overground north of Charlemont is just nonsense. It’s just not going to happen.

Frankly, it’s up there with the nonsense regularly spouted by another poster about DART Underground.

Can we at least try to keep the discussion in some way shape or form realistic?

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121815683#Comment_121815683

Sam do you mean south rather than north?..

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121817553#Comment_121817553

I mean the ML using the existing Charlemont bridge. How they do that was discussed during the Emerging Route selection. It was rejected because of the suggested cut and cover of Earlsfort Terrace and the effect on the Adelaide Road Presbyterian Church, plus Peter Place.

Now given the other loud objections to any nimby effect of ML including the GAA ground to be used for spoil, the designers decided that south of Charlemont was not a hill to die on, so terminated the ML at Charlemont.

There is plenty of time to revisit the whole GL element when construction is under way. The retired economists and local politicians chasing votes are already out with their pet tuppence worth.

prunudo

After spending a weekend in Holland, whats not to like about integrated train-metro-tram lines. Fast and frequent service with plenty of route options. Those moaning about current Metrolink and any future upgrade of greenline, really don't know what they're missing.

OisinCooke

I presume the plan would be that if Metrolink was extended to Sandyford, being driverless and of a different loading gauge to the Luas that the current Green Line south of Ranelagh will become a Metro-only corridor…? I’ll try and attach the link here but according to the Metrolink website, the plan is to bring Metro above ground between Ranelagh and Beechwood with the Green Line still running on top of it until Beechwood where an interchange station would be built.

However I don’t think it makes much sense to effectively double the Luas Green Line corridor south of Stephen’s Green and end at Beechwood with a loose section between Sandyford and Brides Glen. Would it not be preferable to re-route the Green Line southwest down Adelaide Road after Harcourt Street and down Leeson Street lower then out the Stillorgan Road passing Donnybrook and of course UCD before joining back in with the Green Line at Sandyford where the Metro stops?

Or even keep Bray - Sandyford as a separate Luas line (even with a possibly extension towards UCD - ending at another DART station further north) and then build an entirely new alignment of the Finglas/Broombridge Luas to go southeast after Harcourt and hit Rathmines, Harold’s Cross, Terenure, Rathfarnham, Templeogue/Ballyboden and Knocklyon (and the M50)…?

Is this feasible/a good idea…?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003653#Comment_122003653

First of all, Luas and Metrolink will use the same gauge, standard gauge. However you are correct for other reasons, including being fully automated, it would be Metrolink only to Sandyford. Though might possible to move Luas vehicles on the track for engineering purposes, overnight, etc. depending on how it is tied in.

The Greater Dublin Transport document includes a post 2042 Luas network which has new lines which would extend the Luas south of Charlemont in alternative alignments.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122004322#Comment_122004322

from memory, the floor heights of the carriages will be different too, so the platforms won't be compatible, certainly not for disabled access anyway.

CoffeeImpala

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122004322#Comment_122004322

In fairness to the poster they did say loading gauge rather than track gauge which you are referring to in your opening sentence.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122005289#Comment_122005289

Mea cupla, very true!

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122004854#Comment_122004854

Yep that’s right, if the green line is converted to Metro the platforms will all have to be raised.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122012481#Comment_122012481

Yes, the green line would face an extensive closure while being upgraded to Metro. There's not just the platforms too, I believe that the overhead wires would need some work. I do think that they're looking at a permanent rerouting of the Green line so that it still runs to Sandyford (like OisinCooke mentioned), this would allow them to do the tie-in anywhere they want, all the platform work, and all the overhead work without any real disruption or political pressure.

Regardless of the method used, I think that it'd be worth it, even if it was closed 6 months to a year.

gjim

Build a second (soon to be completely redundant) tram route to Sandyford before the upgrade to avoid disruption? Absolutely no way it would be worth it in terms of expense or delays. If you can find road space for a new tram route from Harcourt to Sandyford, then you can find a route for a convoy of buses to provide a replacement service.

We’re in danger of overthinking this and turning what should be a relatively straightforward and inexpensive upgrade of a mostly segregated alignment into some crazy multibillion decades long massive engineering project. In cities with a history of continuous PT infrastructure investment, some disruption and temporary replacement (bus) services are the norm and the public just accept it. Dubliners need to do the same.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122017336#Comment_122017336

Would it be redundant though? Send it down the R138/N11, which would connect the LUAS with UCD, before cutting across somewhere to rejoin at Sandyford. I think that'd have a lot of support, and would be relatively easy to do, what with the N11 being a high class bus corridor already.

It all depends on how long they predict the Green Line Metrolink Upgrade to take. A 6 month closure would probably be fine construction wise, and acceptable politically, but anything more would kill it, IMO. The reason the upgrade was cancelled/postponed in the first place was the stupid length of time the green line was going to be out of action (it wasn't the sewage tunnel, despite many mentioning that), and even if they have halved that time, it'd still be way too much politically.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122017801#Comment_122017801

The post 2042 Luas network shown in the Greater Dublin Transport Strategy has such a Luas line going from Charlemont to UCD and onto Sandyford.

It makes sense regardless of the Green line upgrade given how busy that corridor is. Basically most of the core bus corridors into the city will become Luas lines post 2042.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122017336#Comment_122017336

It's going to need to be built eventually, if for no other purpose than to connect the Sandyford-Brides Glen section back up to the Luas Core network

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122021810#Comment_122021810

They have a proposal for that.

The trams will, if needed, be trucked for needed attention to the Luas depot where the work can be done.

A lot cheaper than building a Luas line.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122023280#Comment_122023280

As of now, the N11 Corridor is carrying approx. 15.5million passengers, per Dublin Bus, that is only going to grow. Only 9 million shy of the Green Line, which is currently beyond capacity. When you look at the passenger intensity on that corridor, when you look at it's suitability for coversion to Tram given the width the alignment, and when you consider a potential connection to Sandyford in the future, planning for and building out a N11 Luas is forward planning.

murphaph

You can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs. They can upgrade the Green Line in sections, gradually extending the Metro further and further south, with a short(ish) very high frequency bus replacement shuttle taking passengers from Green Line (temporary) northern terminus to Metrolink (temporary) southern terminus. Closing the whole Green Line from Sandyford to Charlemont is not the way to go though. You would need hundreds of buses to come close to transporting that many people that distance.

Pete_Cavan

Upgrading the Green Line between Charlemont and Sandyford to Metro will have to be done in one go, piecemeal would cause more disruption.

If Metrolink is extended south, a new route for Luas north of Sandyford would be needed. Going east to the N11 and then north would make sense but I don't see where it could go from Donnybrook bus garage. All the roads are narrow and lined with driveways so not suitable, not to mention the local residents who would be less than supportive.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122023679#Comment_122023679

It'll have to be done for a period of a 2 or 3 months, it'll be fine. Like yes it will hurt but they can time it over a period of decreased travel like the summer.

KrisW1001

This was studied in 2018 as part of the Metrolonk scoping activities. During an upgrade, the Green line will have to be split into two disconnected sections, north and south of Ranelagh, for three years, and during that period there will be also be nine month stretch when there will be no service of any kind between Ranelagh and Sandyford. When the works are complete, Ranelagh will lose its station.

Current usage projections say this won't be needed for another 10 years.

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122017801#Comment_122017801

I'm a fan of the idea of an N11 tram route but it would definitely not constitute a replacement service for the southern green Luas during an upgrade except for a small subset of passengers. It would only work for those getting on/off at or south of Sandyford and NOT getting on/off anywhere south of Charlemont.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122023833#Comment_122023833

it would simply replace the bus lanes that are going to be built as part of BusConnects. BusConnects has a two way bus lane going through this route, so it would just replace that.

Of course these tracks would be shared between Luas and buses on this section.

Scrap that, that was the original bus connects plan, I see from the docs submitted to ABP there is a relatively short section with only a bus lane on one side now! Very poor.

Given how short this section is, I’d say just bite the bullet and start CPO’ing. Alternatively make the cars one way only through that section, either traffic light controlled or permanently if another route could be found nearby.

Perhaps even a short section of cut and cover for the Luas under that few hundred meter section!

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122023925#Comment_122023925

I don't think any plan ever envisioned Ranelagh Luas station being permanently closed. Where did you get that!?

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024180#Comment_122024180

My Crayon'd plan was CPO part of St. Margarets or cut and cover, Cut and cover really is the cleanest but would cause serious disruption probably.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024180#Comment_122024180

I presume you are talking about Morehamption Road, if so, a lot of very expensive property would have to be bought and a lot of old trees removed. I don't think it is realistic. Cut and cover definitely isn't a solution, it would require more CPO’ing and disruption.

I think if the Green Line was to be rerouted, it wouldn't go to the city centre and instead Metrolink would have to serve that need. The rerouted Green Line would likely have to terminate south of the Dodder or if it were to continue north, that would have to be in a tunnel.