Proposed New suckler Scheme

Anto_Meath

What a people thoughts on this.

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/csp-whats-the-latest-on-the-new-suckler-programme/

Don't like the idea of now been able to increase numbers like you would imagine they there would be a bit of flexibility for 1 or 2 additional cows.

893bet

I assume you can increase number but just your payment won’t adjust?

Anto_Meath

That would be common scene and acceptable, but the line in the Argi Land article states "The scheme will prevent a participant increasing their suckler cow numbers over the course of the contract" and where you reduces numbers the new lower number will become the reference number. It seem all to be about getting cow numbers reduced.

893bet

What if they take the reference year as two years ago or last year and you had increased in the meantime.

What if you got locked up with TB and a loaf of incalf heifers you planned on selling calved down etc.

I think that it will be clarified.

Dozer1

I'd kept my cow numbers up last 2 years and a new ref year had to be coming but even still they'll find a way of screwing it up

Seanhorse91

What do ye make of the fact we’d have to be Bord Bia approved? I never bothered with it before as we sell our cattle live, and I didn’t want the headache of all the paperwork.

mr.stonewall

It has been a trend to add the QA to scheme. It was part of beam.

Very little work needed to get QA sorted, Just in general a mindset, to get the paperwork in order and then it an easy job to keep it on top of it.

Loads of boxes to tick and its just a matter off keeping them ticked.

Lots of resources and aids out there to keep the records in orders. Even a simple thing like just having a separate email for the farm, vet will email statment and prescrtions, feed supplier now is gone paperless and emails statments and invoices, that will keep at lot of paperwork together in one place. Little and often is the key and doing it as you go is the key.

Grueller

Any hints or leaks as to the proposed payment rates? That will be the detail the scheme succeeds or fails upon.

mr.stonewall

Looking at bdgp and beep you have a combo of approx 160/ head. Probably will see them drop it to sub 150/head to fund the other schemes. Doing this will slowly reduce suckler numbers

Base price

It's really looking like an us and them type situation.

https://twitter.com/ajwwoods/status/1423372898765615106?s=20

Birdnuts

Don't see the point in this nonsense when the main expansion in numbers is via Dairy

grassroot1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117710819#Comment_117710819

Unless QA is paid on slaughtered suckler cows they can shove Bordbia

The suckler cow is being made the scapegoat for dairy expansion

Bass Reeves

The purpose of this is to support existing Suckler cows mainly west of the Shannon. However it also want to prevent expansion.

I totally agree with preventing expansion. According to the rag there is a proposal to pay up to 300/ cow. If that proposal was enacted without any limit on expansion there is a lot of lads that would up cow numbers by far more than one or two.

There is other options to expand keep cattle longer or go down the finishing route. Looking at AA prices and the fact that Suckler farmers can get the 20c bonus an R grading AA bullock at 300 kgs DW will gross 1400 euro. A 280 kg DW heifer will gross over 1300. A 370 kg DW bullock will gross 1700 euro. Sheep is another option. Hill lambs will make 2+/kg this Autumn.

For lads on fairish land that has to be considered as an option. The reason ewes are not limited is that last year was we imported the 700k lambs in carcasse form for processing.

The last thing we want is more beef so processor's can pocket the 100 -130 euro extra you get along with another 50-100 off every animal fattened from the dairy system actually think it a retrograde step. There should have been no extra money targeted at suckler's if anything reduce the money and let suckling wither on the Vine. The only reason the processors want them is for winter fattening.

Say my name

It's taking the precedent set by the Beam scheme and how the uptake was received.

Anto_Meath

Lots of farms don't suit dairy so that isn't an option. I have no problem with a quota on the number of cows that are allowed in any scheme been capped at at a previous reference. But the idea that if you have an extra cow or two you will be penalised is wrong. I keep around 20 cows, some years I might only calf 18, others it could be 22. By the jist of this I would have a quota of 20, then the year I drop to 18 that becomes my new quota and I get penalised the following year when I am back up at 20. That's just not right. St Colmcille is reputed to have say the day will come when you will deny your own cow at your gate. This looks to be the start of it.....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117717949#Comment_117717949

They need to look at Carbon in a more holistic sense for any farming enterprise.

Its silly to pit farmers against each other.

Plenty of farms could already be considered carbon neutral (or carbon efficient) if proper assessments were done.

Say farmers that produce with low carbon inputs and high sequestration etc.

Alternative options should be looked at. The EU subsidies to cut carbon have flopped.

Why not scrap the likes of teagasc and instead push the money towards younger and innovative farmers.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058202424/proposed-new-suckler-scheme

Arent these just the same old ideas repackaged and fired out again?

Why not subsidise a carbon survey and base payment around that?

Classic lazy government solution, throw money at the problem instead of look at the bigger picture.

People think dairying is this magic bullet solution to farming. If we all go milking cows then what will happen?

Like a part time set up where someone like to work and farm wouldnt be ideal for dairying.

Grueller

I still have about 40 of them here alongside a dairy herd. I run them on an outfarm and calve them in the Autumn,from about now on.

After the last two days with these cooonts I will not apply for this scheme regardless if it offers €500 per eligible cow. They are pure and utterly hardship and as far as I can see, the only reason lads like them.is that they haven't tried any other farming system.

I have kept on a batch of beef crosses from the dairy herd this year and they are a pure pleasure to deal with by comparison. I expect them to leave as much or more money as well for a small fraction of the workload and hardship.

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718207#Comment_117718207

I'm sure if you kept your beef calves it's likely they were well bred, but there's ahuge amount of calves sold that are only screws and when they're on adlib milk for 4 weeks it's diffficult not to be caught out by them.

But for that problem rearing calves is a lovely system, no night calving, wild cattle or dangerous cows to tolerate

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719173#Comment_117719173

Dairy beef breeding needs a serious step up. Keep selling crap and your market will disappear. If the DAFM want dairy beef they are going to have to put structures in place to serious improve quality.

I think it's time to seriously look to DNA sampling calves at birth.having proof to dam and sire, when fed into the icbf database will seriously help sort the issue of calf quality. EBI needs to be weighted better to calf quality. I don't have the exact figure but I would hazard a guess that the average number of locations for a dairy cow is 4.5. That would mean that at about 3 of these calves are going to end up as beef.

Going to throw it out there and I know I will be shot down by some, but it has merit. If dairy farmers had to keep calves to 42 days, I personally feel, it would change the mindset to calf quality greatly. Big difference in having to look at feeding a calf for an extra 30 days.

I have both sucklers and dairy beef here and you will get caught out with a few screws of dairy calves. I would say that it is running at about 20%. These really hurts the bottom line as they are around for so long.

Something has to change quickly with calf quality, or else calves are going to be left on dairy farms. I can see in the next 5 years the export of calves coming to a halt or the age at which export can happen being pushed out. If this came to fruition, where will this stock be kept. Oh wait let's reduce the suckler herd

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719245#Comment_117719245

Whether any of us like it or not calves from dairy cows will be there as will the cull cows themselves. Neither the dairy industry nor the Irish beef industry or Irish agriculture in general can afford mass slaughter of calves. IMO yes like you have posted export of calves will come under pressure sooner rather than later.

However look at the price Irish farmers paid for calves at stages this spring. Once again they out competed exporters for Friesian calves. For all the talk about quality it has bottomed out and is improving. I no longer see the large number of first cross JE around, the second cross is as good as run of the mill Friesians if done right.

On DNA testing it would be more appropriate to DNA test dairy farmers stock bulls. However the big question is would marts display this infor and could your average run of the mill farmer interprete it. The only real pity about DBA testing in Agriculture is absolutely no DNA testing of farmers has taken place.

Just one thing to remember when beef farming it takes 2okgs DW extra and a rise in grade excluding QA to make 100 euro extra on a carcasse

blue5000

As a suckler farmer I'm getting burnout from keeping up with all these schemes, I couldn't even begin to list them all. Our DG co-ordinator tells us of one lad who doesn't bother with any of them he just gets farm assist instead! I think a calf registration amnesty would simplify things.

alps

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719915#Comment_117719915

What do you mean by a calf registration amnesty?

blue5000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117722106#Comment_117722106

Here's a clue; rushes.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719915#Comment_117719915

It never going to happen. It up to farmers to manage out of it themselves. Unless you are doing it accross a complete herd and are 3-5 months out of cycle it's not really an issue. It immaterial now with the bull game gone and while weight limits are not in place this year they could haunt us next year

Sugarbowl

I don’t know any suckler farmer who has the exact same number of cows calving every year... it always fluctuates depending on culls/replacement heifer/recycled cows. Looks like with this if you drop any bit you will have to stay down.

MIKEKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117712721#Comment_117712721

QA paid up to 30 months for a reason. If it were to be paid on suckler cows the age limit would have to go. Not going to happen I'm afraid

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117718207#Comment_117718207

And you are selling them as weanlings. Imagine watching them after weaning for pneumonia. You will be surprised at the returns off the dairy cross and even Friesians when if you start keeping them after the cooonts are gone. It will be a TimeV Return. There is an article in the journal from a part time lad with 20 cows, 60 ewes and some dairy cross calves. Hours worked varies from13-20 hours per week.

When you have all dairy cross cattle on the out farm a lot of the time it will be a 20 minute visit on the place. Longest part will be going and coming from it. Not only that as cattle are quite you can get anybody to do it. Even if you do not call a day there is no panic

ZETOR_IS_BETTER

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117722168#Comment_117722168

How is the bull game gone?

Hard Knocks

When you have all dairy cross cattle on the out farm a lot of the time it will be a 20 minute visit on the place. Longest part will be going and coming from it. Not only that as cattle are quite you can get anybody to do it. Even if you do not call a day there is no panic

Seriously what sort of sucklers do you think we have?

grassroot1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117722902#Comment_117722902

Who made up the age limit? there is no reason why the bonus cannot be paid on cows

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117723655#Comment_117723655

Numbers are away back compared to 2-3 years ago. Very few are doing store bulls from the dairy herd. They would have been squeezed last autumn or spring. A few years ago the bull kill would hit 220-250k this year it will be lucky to hit 100 k. Autumn kl has really been hit as 16-24 month bulls are those most discouraged

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117724096#Comment_117724096

It was an agreement between the the IFA and MII in 2009 when the grid was introduced

Grueller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117724094#Comment_117724094

To be fair Bass is kind of right I think. Just today I went out and found a cow calved two days ago looking for her calf. After 20 minutes searching I found the calf in a 6' deep gripe. Had to drag that out.

I gave all day Thursday between a cow with a calf bed out to be got in for the vet. I also had a hard calving Thursday and lost a load of time with time with struggling calf after it.

Friday was lost with drawing 15 cows home to a shed to wean them and moving the weaned heifers to after grass and getting troughs sorted etc.

Saturday was lost in the main getting the 7 cows I have already calved back off the home block to the out farm with their calves as I bring them home to calve them and want the grass at home for the piebalds.

That is 3 days from milking to milking lost with them.

If that were a bunch of dry stock I would have very little of that and even if one was off colour I have good roadways and a handling facility out there so it is easy to manage problems.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117724141#Comment_117724141

Theres almost no justification for it as far as I can see...its another tool to squeeze lads imo

I saw a lad in the IFJ (woods I think) mention it was good for the environment in terms of less emissions, I'm of a mind to directly question that as I'd be of the opinion it promotes more throughput of heads and intensification as well as concentrates feeding to get them fit before thirty months rather than letting them reach their peak off grass at 36/38 months if need be....especially dairy x that dont have the benefit of being single suckled till 6-9 months in some cases

what would be good for the environment would be pay a fair price for the product and make the extensive way the best way to knock a profit out of it....not promote intensification and drive down prices increasing throughput of a cheap product..........the jig must nearly be up on the 30 month bolox at this stage, no wonder MII wanted it.

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117725603#Comment_117725603

With the proposed PGI and bord bia standard for grass fed beef, it allows for up to 36 months. The reasoning that the 30 months is still around, is that we have become conditioned to to it. The line will be thrown out is that the majority of cattle are currently finished under 30 months. U30 is just a tool that the processors use to massage supply and draw out cattle earlier than late autumn. it's the tool that is stopping forward prices from being offered to farmers. The sooner we as farmers wake up and putting pressure on stakeholders on a number of issues that affect us the better. It's not always handouts that we want.

Bass Reeves

There is for and against 30 months. It reduces the autumn glut and keeps carcass weights lower. Whether we like it or not market demand is for lighter carcasses for the British market. However should this be incentivised by market rather than a general bonus.

At present with numbers scarce weight limits are not pushed as d and is for throughput. But next year may well be different again. Suckler farmers really need to breed with this in mind if the cattle they breed are for the Irish/ UK market.

I agree with Jjamenson that the environment argument is flawed for early slaughter if it is achieved by feeding ration.

Friesian more than any animal benefit from age especially as many are badly done as stores. However there is a good portion that can be hung under 30 months.

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117723655#Comment_117723655

When beef prices drop, beef bull prices take the biggest hit - when that happens the factories close ranks and farmers can't get their cattle booked in/killed. I know only too well as in the past we used to buy in up on three hundred FR's, AAx, HEx, continental sucks calves and rear them to finish at under 24 months.

Dairy cross bull beef requires intensive finishing feed regime of at least 70 days of adlib meal (with straw incorporated as roughage) starting at 5/6kgs/hd per day graduating to 12/14kgs/hd per day so as meal prices are only going up let alone the other costs of diesel, insurance, Vet and dosing/minerals it isn't viable.

I previously posted in 2013 why we quit finishing dairy bull beef. Realistically you're working for the whim of the factories.

Bitten & Hisses

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117724389#Comment_117724389

No offence, but it sounds like the fragmentation of your holding is the main reason sucklers are hardship for you.

The timing of this scheme is a disaster for me. I need another 2-3 years to stabilise my numbers at the optimum stocking rate for this farm. Bord Bia QA scheme is another pile of horse manure in my case as I only ever slaughter cull cows or stock bulls and sell weanlings in the mart. The devil is in the detail, so I'll be making a very careful assessment before I decide whether or not enter this scheme.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727850#Comment_117727850

You will have little or no choice but to enter QA if you have cows to slaughter. Factories often quote 10-30c/ kg less for non QA cows. Ya this year with tight numbers prices may not be discounted but any year with strong slaughter numbers they are.

Grueller's farm.is not that fragmented. He has if I remember right 50-60 acres around his house and 25 acres about 2-3 miles away with an outside farm of 80 ish acres about 12 miles away.

When you have numbers with Suckler cows you are going to have time issues. Dairycross drystock is totally different. Moving them is easier, handling them. Yesterday I had to move a bunch accross the road I put up a temporary fence from there paddock to the gate to get them up near the road ( pigtails and string) bought them up through the paddock next tothe gate, put a piece of rope as a backfence to stop them going back along it. Out over the ditch put a up my rope accross the road and opened the gate and they trotted accross the road.

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727977#Comment_117727977

3 farms with one 12 miles apart and you don’t call that fragmented🤔🤔 !! It’s nearly irrelevant if it’s 1 or 20 miles as the hardship is loading them into a trailer.

my farm is literally all together (apart from 7 acres across the road which I take 3 cuts of silage and don’t grass at all). No issue in moving cattle as it’s all in paddocks so just one call and they come running. I time dosing so as they are in the paddock beside the yard for when I want them. I also have a smaller pen and crush in the middle of the farm if I need to inject a one off animal. I can dose 20 yearlings in too but wouldn’t be big enough for the sucklers and calves

You can’t generalise sucklers, as workload differs from farm to farm/ system that you’re operating etc.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117728392#Comment_117728392

A fragmented farm makes everything more awful. I have 8 private parcels and shares in 6 commonages.

Grueller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727850#Comment_117727850

None taken. It is absolutely, but the workload is massive compared to rearing calves and the returns are very similar. Return on time spent is the name of the game now as Bass said.

Grueller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727977#Comment_117727977

Near enough Bass. 40ish about the house, 18 more 1 mile up the road and 82 more 8 miles away.

Easten

Mine is pretty fragmented too.1 main block then 3 smaller blocks.

I end up moving cow pairs about a lot. I'm on the road with the trailer ever second week. I have separate loading/holding pens on each place. It's the only way I can manage.

One place has only 6 acres, I wanted to do a swap with another farmer for a worse field that was close to home but JC it would have been easier to talk to Arlene foster so I gave up in the end

Bitten & Hisses

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117728624#Comment_117728624

You are of course 100% correct in what you say. There are ways to make sucklers manageable, but dairy stock will always be easier kept.

In a parallel universe, I would have made the decision to convert to dairying at the start of this year. The setup costs would be modest enough for me (the family milked cows here until 1999), but the labour side of things is where it comes unstuck and stops making sense.

Back to the topic of the suckler scheme, has anyone else noted how unusually vocal the Journal are about it? At face value, Adam Woods was critical of the farming organisations across the board, where usually they cosy up to the IFA position. Is it all theatre, or do they mean what they say?

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117730451#Comment_117730451

IMO it a lot of total misunderstanding the reality out there. CRISS will increase a lot of Suckler farmers along the west coast payments in this scheme. At present additional Suckler payment cone from Pillar 2 funding. Demands for a no conditions Suckler cow premia ( the demand from DD and FMcC) would be pillar 1 money. It unlikely to reach 300/ cow. However along with Criss money it.leave the choice to farmers in these area whether it makes sense to keep Suckler cows. On really marginal hill land sheep or Suckler cows seem the only option however a few are starting to rear calves and collect payments.

Any future dairy cross calves/growing stock schemes have to have realistic number. Even weighting 50@20/ head is only 1k.

I cannot see where the case for Suckler cows( except for poorer land in the west) where a calf produced even with a subsidy heading for 200 head you still need a base price of 4.5/ kg for it to make a decent margin. With weight limits probably back in next year you are looking at maximum weight of 420kgs but are we far fro. A bonus/penalty at 360-380 kgs

Anto_Meath

I laugh at lads recommending that all suckler farmers start rearing dairy beef. I do both and when done right there is money to be made out of both. Could I make more - yes, will I take any money I can get via subsidy once it doesn't have a negative effect on my bottom line - yes.

I bring my suckler cattle to beef at 24 - 30 months off grass around this time of year, the same as the dairy stock, but if lads are used of selling weanlins at the back end of the year for €900 - €1000 they will find it very difficult selling dairy stock 12 -18 months later for only €100 - €200 more. There is no money in selling dairy weanlins or stores, you have to bring them to the hook, or near beef in the mart.

Making money on suckler's is largely based on breeding and getting a system that works for you, not following what everyone else is at. Some lads put all sorts of cow / heifers in calf and don't think of what they will breed. They think that every cow can calf a big Charolais bull and then wonder why the have vet bills up in the thousands.

Anto_Meath

They will need to sell stock in the back end of the year for income, they have their farm set up to paid bills when the cattle are sold, they pay for the rented land, merchant bills and bank loans. Disrupting this cash flow will have a knock on effect on all these things. I know from personal experience that dairy bred stock take a lot more feeding that suckler bred and they don't convert it to weight as good. Suckler bred cattle will put on weight in a shed on average silage where as dairy bred will be lucky to hold their own. Suckler cows will be grand getting average silage, they will hold their condition no bother. I put 14 18 - 24 month old bullocks in a pen. 2 blocks of silage will feed them each day no bother with some left over if they are all suckler bred. If the are Fr or AAx from dairy then a pen of them would eat two and a half blocks of silage a day.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117733557#Comment_117733557

Bucket fed weanling are the easiest animal you ever carry over the winter. Any way decent silage with minerals and a kg of ration if you like will have them thriving. Stop the ration late January and compensatory growth at grass. Keep them moving onto fresh grass as calves ever 2-3 days and as yearlings every 7-10 days if possible.

When you house them the second winter probably no ration as lads discount them if they are hot. Even selling at 18 months after only one winter 450 kg FR are making 750 euro even if they were 100 euro calves they will leave a decent margin.

Just be patient buying calves and do not get carried away. Sell Jan/ Feb calves at 16-20 months and keep March/ April calves until following spring

Base price

How many of ye that are advocating dairy/dairy cross calf to beef/store to beef have actually done it and if so how many do you rear and for how many years have you been at it?

Do you think that dairy/dairy cross calves, cmr, ration, inputs are going to get cheaper in the near future. In fairness as the dairy herd further increases (which it will) and pressure comes on calf/weanling exports (which will happen) the price of calves will probably collapse. I wonder will we see large factory style calf rearing farms similar to those in USA where the calf's welfare is compromised because it becomes a numbers game in order to turn a profit. TBH I hope never to see such a situation in Ireland but sure we're half way there with some dairy operations.