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Proposed New suckler Scheme



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,624 ✭✭✭893bet

    I assume you can increase number but just your payment won’t adjust?

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,276 ✭✭✭Anto_Meath

    That would be common scene and acceptable, but the line in the Argi Land article states "The scheme will prevent a participant increasing their suckler cow numbers over the course of the contract" and where you reduces numbers the new lower number will become the reference number. It seem all to be about getting cow numbers reduced.

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,624 ✭✭✭893bet

    What if they take the reference year as two years ago or last year and you had increased in the meantime.

    What if you got locked up with TB and a loaf of incalf heifers you planned on selling calved down etc.

    I think that it will be clarified.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭Dozer1

    I'd kept my cow numbers up last 2 years and a new ref year had to be coming but even still they'll find a way of screwing it up

  • Registered Users Posts: 179 ✭✭Seanhorse91

    What do ye make of the fact we’d have to be Bord Bia approved? I never bothered with it before as we sell our cattle live, and I didn’t want the headache of all the paperwork.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,527 ✭✭✭mr.stonewall

    It has been a trend to add the QA to scheme. It was part of beam.

    Very little work needed to get QA sorted, Just in general a mindset, to get the paperwork in order and then it an easy job to keep it on top of it.

    Loads of boxes to tick and its just a matter off keeping them ticked.

    Lots of resources and aids out there to keep the records in orders. Even a simple thing like just having a separate email for the farm, vet will email statment and prescrtions, feed supplier now is gone paperless and emails statments and invoices, that will keep at lot of paperwork together in one place. Little and often is the key and doing it as you go is the key.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,063 ✭✭✭Grueller

    Any hints or leaks as to the proposed payment rates? That will be the detail the scheme succeeds or fails upon.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,527 ✭✭✭mr.stonewall

    Looking at bdgp and beep you have a combo of approx 160/ head. Probably will see them drop it to sub 150/head to fund the other schemes. Doing this will slowly reduce suckler numbers

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,010 ✭✭✭✭Base price

    It's really looking like an us and them type situation.

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,569 ✭✭✭Birdnuts

    Don't see the point in this nonsense when the main expansion in numbers is via Dairy

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭grassroot1

    Unless QA is paid on slaughtered suckler cows they can shove Bordbia

    The suckler cow is being made the scapegoat for dairy expansion

  • Registered Users Posts: 17,934 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves

    The purpose of this is to support existing Suckler cows mainly west of the Shannon. However it also want to prevent expansion.

    I totally agree with preventing expansion. According to the rag there is a proposal to pay up to 300/ cow. If that proposal was enacted without any limit on expansion there is a lot of lads that would up cow numbers by far more than one or two.

    There is other options to expand keep cattle longer or go down the finishing route. Looking at AA prices and the fact that Suckler farmers can get the 20c bonus an R grading AA bullock at 300 kgs DW will gross 1400 euro. A 280 kg DW heifer will gross over 1300. A 370 kg DW bullock will gross 1700 euro. Sheep is another option. Hill lambs will make 2+/kg this Autumn.

    For lads on fairish land that has to be considered as an option. The reason ewes are not limited is that last year was we imported the 700k lambs in carcasse form for processing.

    The last thing we want is more beef so processor's can pocket the 100 -130 euro extra you get along with another 50-100 off every animal fattened from the dairy system actually think it a retrograde step. There should have been no extra money targeted at suckler's if anything reduce the money and let suckling wither on the Vine. The only reason the processors want them is for winter fattening.

    Slava Ukrainii

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,836 ✭✭✭✭Say my name

    It's taking the precedent set by the Beam scheme and how the uptake was received.

    Post edited by Say my name on

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Jjameson

    So Adam woods, the ifj, and meat industry Ireland want a full on suckler payment with no cap on numbers! For the benefit of whom!! The only cow should be a cow producing both meat and milk IMO bar pedigree, very marginal land/extensive enviro systems. This is money that that will wind up straight in the accounts of the processing cartel.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Jjameson

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,276 ✭✭✭Anto_Meath

    Lots of farms don't suit dairy so that isn't an option. I have no problem with a quota on the number of cows that are allowed in any scheme been capped at at a previous reference. But the idea that if you have an extra cow or two you will be penalised is wrong. I keep around 20 cows, some years I might only calf 18, others it could be 22. By the jist of this I would have a quota of 20, then the year I drop to 18 that becomes my new quota and I get penalised the following year when I am back up at 20. That's just not right. St Colmcille is reputed to have say the day will come when you will deny your own cow at your gate. This looks to be the start of it.....

    Post edited by Anto_Meath on

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Jjameson

    Keeping cows for social welfare payment for the production of subsidised beef for a cartel of processors is wrong. Cormac Healy would join the ifa in lobbying for 300€ payment free for all numbers.

    a bucket reared black whitehead will do as well on marginal land as a lactating cow and calf duo.

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    They need to look at Carbon in a more holistic sense for any farming enterprise.

    Its silly to pit farmers against each other.

    Plenty of farms could already be considered carbon neutral (or carbon efficient) if proper assessments were done.

    Say farmers that produce with low carbon inputs and high sequestration etc.

    Alternative options should be looked at. The EU subsidies to cut carbon have flopped.

    Why not scrap the likes of teagasc and instead push the money towards younger and innovative farmers.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Jjameson

    Dairying is the only enterprise actually putting real money into family farms. The cash cow. Pun intended. The progeny of which are for the most part ideally suited to supply our nearest neighbours with beef. Which is as good as it gets in terms of beef market price globally.

    at no point since the introduction of domesticated cow to Ireland 3000 years have farmers kept them just to single suckle a calf in this country. until the 1990’s it was very very rare. They are nether traditional,logical,economic and the stupidity of those lobbyists looking for social welfare payments for them have had a kick too many to the head!!

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    Arent these just the same old ideas repackaged and fired out again?

    Why not subsidise a carbon survey and base payment around that?

    Classic lazy government solution, throw money at the problem instead of look at the bigger picture.

    People think dairying is this magic bullet solution to farming. If we all go milking cows then what will happen?

    Like a part time set up where someone like to work and farm wouldnt be ideal for dairying.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,063 ✭✭✭Grueller

    I still have about 40 of them here alongside a dairy herd. I run them on an outfarm and calve them in the Autumn,from about now on.

    After the last two days with these cooonts I will not apply for this scheme regardless if it offers €500 per eligible cow. They are pure and utterly hardship and as far as I can see, the only reason lads like that they haven't tried any other farming system.

    I have kept on a batch of beef crosses from the dairy herd this year and they are a pure pleasure to deal with by comparison. I expect them to leave as much or more money as well for a small fraction of the workload and hardship.

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,938 ✭✭✭✭wrangler

    I'm sure if you kept your beef calves it's likely they were well bred, but there's ahuge amount of calves sold that are only screws and when they're on adlib milk for 4 weeks it's diffficult not to be caught out by them.

    But for that problem rearing calves is a lovely system, no night calving, wild cattle or dangerous cows to tolerate

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,527 ✭✭✭mr.stonewall

    Dairy beef breeding needs a serious step up. Keep selling crap and your market will disappear. If the DAFM want dairy beef they are going to have to put structures in place to serious improve quality.

    I think it's time to seriously look to DNA sampling calves at birth.having proof to dam and sire, when fed into the icbf database will seriously help sort the issue of calf quality. EBI needs to be weighted better to calf quality. I don't have the exact figure but I would hazard a guess that the average number of locations for a dairy cow is 4.5. That would mean that at about 3 of these calves are going to end up as beef.

    Going to throw it out there and I know I will be shot down by some, but it has merit. If dairy farmers had to keep calves to 42 days, I personally feel, it would change the mindset to calf quality greatly. Big difference in having to look at feeding a calf for an extra 30 days.

    I have both sucklers and dairy beef here and you will get caught out with a few screws of dairy calves. I would say that it is running at about 20%. These really hurts the bottom line as they are around for so long.

    Something has to change quickly with calf quality, or else calves are going to be left on dairy farms. I can see in the next 5 years the export of calves coming to a halt or the age at which export can happen being pushed out. If this came to fruition, where will this stock be kept. Oh wait let's reduce the suckler herd

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Jjameson

    lets reduce the suckler herd that was only put there with subsidies, kept with subsidy, and is still has its advocates crying for more subsidy, and replace them with the dairy/dairy cross calves. Concentrate on extensive grass based tender,marbled quality British market beef rather than European spec commodity.

  • Registered Users Posts: 17,934 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves

    Whether any of us like it or not calves from dairy cows will be there as will the cull cows themselves. Neither the dairy industry nor the Irish beef industry or Irish agriculture in general can afford mass slaughter of calves. IMO yes like you have posted export of calves will come under pressure sooner rather than later.

    However look at the price Irish farmers paid for calves at stages this spring. Once again they out competed exporters for Friesian calves. For all the talk about quality it has bottomed out and is improving. I no longer see the large number of first cross JE around, the second cross is as good as run of the mill Friesians if done right.

    On DNA testing it would be more appropriate to DNA test dairy farmers stock bulls. However the big question is would marts display this infor and could your average run of the mill farmer interprete it. The only real pity about DBA testing in Agriculture is absolutely no DNA testing of farmers has taken place.

    Just one thing to remember when beef farming it takes 2okgs DW extra and a rise in grade excluding QA to make 100 euro extra on a carcasse

    Slava Ukrainii

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000

    As a suckler farmer I'm getting burnout from keeping up with all these schemes, I couldn't even begin to list them all. Our DG co-ordinator tells us of one lad who doesn't bother with any of them he just gets farm assist instead! I think a calf registration amnesty would simplify things.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,868 ✭✭✭alps

    What do you mean by a calf registration amnesty?

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.

  • Registered Users Posts: 17,934 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves

    It never going to happen. It up to farmers to manage out of it themselves. Unless you are doing it accross a complete herd and are 3-5 months out of cycle it's not really an issue. It immaterial now with the bull game gone and while weight limits are not in place this year they could haunt us next year

    Slava Ukrainii

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  • Registered Users Posts: 814 ✭✭✭Sugarbowl

    I don’t know any suckler farmer who has the exact same number of cows calving every year... it always fluctuates depending on culls/replacement heifer/recycled cows. Looks like with this if you drop any bit you will have to stay down.