Proposed New suckler Scheme

Anto_Meath

You are probably not wrong Base Price, if you look at the pig, chicken or dairy industries they are all based on numbers, you have to be working with large numbers to make a profit. This in turn leads to large meal / feed bills & then when things go wrong large finical problems..

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117735843#Comment_117735843

Yes I reared calves for a while. It was a few years after we first bought the farm. My single farm payment was not sorted. There was little margin in bigger cattle as lads had not readjusted I entered reps and ran the place with minimum stock. I had no shed or housing.

Used to have 20 ish calves. As I was traveling with work I could not really do that many and I gave it up after about 4 year after I build a shed for cattle . I started buying weanlings which had softened considerably. I only had a few acres around the house so managing calves that way was awkward as well. I had only a small shed 18X10.

It really all diwn to the price you pay for them. Then any livestock operation is the same. Patience is a huge virtue in a mart. If you carry to finish a plan calf will often leave as much as a fancy one.

Everything in beef is cost control. A strip grazing/ small paddock system is a must if you want to make money. It amazing how much money you save buying in bulk and you have better control of quality.

No I can never see it going down large factory style operations. Ration costs are getting too high. AIBP tried it with Hereford calves a few years ago. Losses were horrendous I am lead to believe as staff had little interest. Neither would I at 10-12 euro/ hour.

All beef is about cost efficiency not technical efficiency. No point in increasing output by 25% but your costs increase by 10-20%,you end up working harder and your hourly rate goes from 20/hour to 12/hour.

Jjameson

I was reared on calf rearing. First double suckling, (because of the subsidy system,my dad caught brucellosis in early 80,s and dairy cows went) then moved to the in vogue single suckler and done the bought calves on milk replacer. All to finish. When the cows went we didn’t know ourselves.

but in fairness I still see nothing,absolutely nothing.. to Justify even more subsidy this ideology of a suckler herd. Subsidise the farm family, but not a bloody herd of cows for the beef cartel.

kollegeknight

Dairy x would struggle here. Cows spend their days grazing to get enough to make milk. Weanlings don’t over fatten here.

we were dairy farmers years ago and it was hardship, the land just isn’t good enough.

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739552#Comment_117739552

If a choice between dairy x and dairy x, I’d probably plant it........

Jjameson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739552#Comment_117739552

whitehead cattle out of friesian cows would live anywhere a cow and calf would. As would sheep.

you want to be paid social welfare to keep a suckler cow?

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117740070#Comment_117740070

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117740070#Comment_117740070

We’d 2 AAX & 2 HEX heifers here last year, wild as hell and wouldn’t flesh.

Over the winter they’d out eat a suckler cow and still be skin & bone

We’d other dairy cross before that done well and were quite, it’s likes of these bad ones that turn lads off the dairy cross

Jjameson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117740174#Comment_117740174

A poor thriving or wild animal most definitely isn’t an exclusive trait of dairy bred stock, but it’s neither here nor there.

Suckler cow payment is the issue . Coupling another subsidy to a beef system that has never held its own to disadvantage another.

If the **** cow doesn’t eat it Larry will pocket it.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117740174#Comment_117740174

When we all change out system we can find it hard to judge the cattle first. A lot of lads were hesitant about online bidding yet now there are some that buy 50-100% of there cattle online. You were really unlucky to end up with 4 wild dairyX cattle. Sometime one wild one will drive the rest scatty. But after a few mistakes generally you get to manage the change

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117740587#Comment_117740587

That was luck of draw

My point was on the reply to knowledgeknight where HExFR will thrive anywhere isn’t true

Some of the farms cows are knee deep and feeding a calf maybe even grazing heather

Each to their own

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117740251#Comment_117740251

I know your issue and am not disagreeing

10 years ago weanlings we’re making €2-300 / hd more than today with less costs

Lots would be happier to get extra in a mart cheque than a sub

What proportion of the €300 will the farmer get after all the red tape expenses

Jjameson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117740674#Comment_117740674

Yes and in areas like this a few euro to keep a cow less would have a better chance of staying in the farmers pocket than tying it to a cows tail.

wrangler

Jasus, todays journal doesn't make great reading, doom and gloom, but renting out of entitlements will be allowed.

But their values will be decimated, ..... interesting times ahead

Dozer1

It's coming to a point shortly where the next generation will have a very easy decision to sell up.

https://www.donedeal.ie/beefcattle-for-sale/complete-clearance-sale-of-top-5-herd-on-icbf/28927502

Another one of the "BETTER " farmers selling out

kollegeknight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739923#Comment_117739923

Can’t plant here. Too much forestry around and we have failed the water test and we’re told we would not even be allowed non commercial forestry,

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117743778#Comment_117743778

As I said about the FJ farm alot of Teagasc and FJ thinking on being a better farmer is flawed. They have transferred most of there practice from dairy direct to drystock. The workload for the extra profit is not justified. Taking out paddocks for bales, following grazings with fertlizer, having all these low grass covers, as well as reseeding is hard to justify in a low margin business

kollegeknight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117740070#Comment_117740070

I never said I wanted social welfare to keep a suckler. I more than likely not sign up for the next scheme. I didn’t sign up for The weighing scheme as for the few quid you get for it doesn’t pay for workload.,

I just said dairy x calves would struggle here as the land is very poor.

grassroot1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117740251#Comment_117740251

interesting you blame the suckler cow for affecting margins not the dairy cow

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117745212#Comment_117745212

Dairy animal is not subsdised. Whether anyone like it or not we will have 1.6 million+ dairy calves born every year. The dairy sector is expanding by about 50 k cows/ year at present. We export 200k ish of them as calves for how long more is the question.

Single suckler's hardly existed in this country pre the late 80's, there was a limited amount on poorer land along the west coast. Suckler's were profitable when the Italian and Continental market was stronger than the UK.

UK spec and is for 280-330 kg carcases grading O=to R-, they pay a premium for marbled beef. Basically the higher priced sector taking HE and AA prime cuts is the highest priced beef in the market. This goes to higher end of the Supermarkets and the restaurant trade. That is your AA steak in an UK supermarket or an HE burger in a restaurant or in McD's. However the rest of the market is a mixture the unbranded burger you get at a deli counter or catering trade food.

The average sucker animal even after present subsidity's dies in debt from a farmer's point of view, Along with that it drags the rest of the market down. All this summer a 330 kg AS or HE was grossing 1450-1500 depending on whether you were getting the 10 or 20 c bonus. With the demand for beef this year due to the EURO's and Olympics there was a market for any prime beef. That will not be there longterm.

The heavy Suckler bullocks will be discounted and drag the rest of the market down. The reasons the factory's want Suckler cattle is for winter feeding( unprofitable for farmers because if the price) and to keep the market price down for the rest of the prime market

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117745457#Comment_117745457

What's left at suckling farming now is hardened suckling farmers, most won't be for changeing. The more farmers that you turn to calf rearing, the more money you'll put in dairy farmers pockets for poor product, The stronger competition for calves can only mean more short gestation slower growing bulls will be used in the dairy herd. Be careful what you wish for.

New zealand were referring to eight month gestation callves that look more like rabbits when we were over there

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117745457#Comment_117745457

When you are throwing out figures

How many Suckler cows is there and how many of there calves are exported

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117745961#Comment_117745961

Last year when marts went online AA & HE calves 14-21 days were making over €300, probably paid by ones starting out rearing

The preformance of these calves will mean these stay rearing or not

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117746035#Comment_117746035

Are those calves 400kg now, can they put on a kg/day since purchase say march 2020. easy enough do a kg/da on bought in beast that is old and big framed but young cattle is more difficult. Are they worth €2/kg , so €600 gross margin between buying and now on the ones that lived.

It's not a amrgin you'd be giving up sucklers for

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117746016#Comment_117746016

About 850-900k, which lave about 700-750k calves. Exports are around 50 k at present. All these figures are off the top of my head

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117746239#Comment_117746239

You’re probably not far off I was thinking sucklers must be under the 700k at this stage

Base price

Link to Bord Bia live export figures by country and type up to w/e 17/7.

https://www.bordbia.ie/farmers-growers/prices-markets/cattle-trade-prices/live-cattle-exports/

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117745961#Comment_117745961

When lads lose money they stop paying too much for calves. Quality is improving. There is fewer and fewer first cross jex calves around. But as well the quality of the beef calf is not as poor. Lads have stopped registering first cross JE calves as AA as well

Beef value of Dairy bulls is known from there DNA tests, do the same for Beef bulls make it compulsory to DNA test any beef breed bull in the dairy herd and put the sire on the card.

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117746279#Comment_117746279

Given all the exporters you see in the marts I thought there’d be more weanlings exported

mythos110

I'm amazed at the anti suckler sentiment of some of the posters here. What difference is it to you if some people choose to continue to go with sucklers. I myself run a 50 cow suckler herd and work full time off farm. The way I see it when the likes of the IFJ/Teagasc are advising to get out of a sector, it probably means its time to get into it.

I sell the majority of my stock at 12-18months. I get reasonably good prices for them but the are prime quality stock and there always seems to be buyers for that type of animal. Many of my dairy farming neighbours often stop at the gates around this time of year to marvel at the quality of the single suckled LM/CH calves compared to their dairy or dairy X equivalent.

I intend to keep suckler farming for the moment at least and draw whatever aids are available. If that becomes non-viable then I'll look to change but for now I'm able to make money as well as invest in the farm (reseeding, sheds etc).

The whole suckler sector is already skewed towards dairy. The geneomics scheme already preferences a dairy X heifer over a perhaps more suitable suckler bred female in terms of star ratings to drive up the value of the dairyX female calf. I always aim to buy a LMX or AAX myself if I need to replace a calf in order to maintain star ratings. The issue with dairyX replacement cows with single suckling is they can have too much milk for the calf and loose teats because of it.

If all sucklers jump ship overnight it will drive up the price of the dairy beef calf (simple laws of supply and demand) which will help the dairy farmers but will further reduce the margins available to the beef producer.

3 years ago I was in the mart selling yearlings. The pen before mine was a bunch of 7 FR bullocks which failed to secure a bid @ €1.50/kg. My animals (same age and close to double the weight) sold in the next lot at an average of €2.71/kg. I'm staying with the continental suckler for now regardless of the schemes available and will draw on whatever is available that doesn't cause too much hardship to claim.

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117746283#Comment_117746283

There are hundreds of thousands of JE/JEx cows in the dairy herd. A lot of Friesian herds that we used to buy from have now introduced JE/JEx cows to up the solids in the milk tank. People fail to forget that crossbred dairy herds will use any breed of beef bull (including cross bred bulls) to try and disguise the jersey influence in the calf - angus, hereford, aubrac, speckled park, shorthorn, irish moiled. IMO the quality of beef cross calves coming from the dairy has been decimated and will never revert to what it was. A local dairy farmer near us milks about 50 FR cows, they would have originally been British Friesian type. He has regular customers every year for his HEx and AAx calves and doesn't have to go near a mart. Unfortunately farmers like him are few and far between as expansion favours the grass rats.