Proposed New suckler Scheme

Anto_Meath

They are just a bit far away up the hill. I am happy running my suckler cows without any subsidy, but if there is money to be got I will take it. I don't like the idea of a scheme where if I decide to increase my numbers I will be penalised & I don't like seeing the negativity that the suckler cow is getting at the minute. She has her place & if you do it right you will get paid for what you are doing.

By following the "better farms" plans you will probably go broke.. they are the dream farm or that is what they would be for a lot of lads. Double suckling was done here for years too, but that was a nice bit of work every morning & evening. A lad beside us years ago used to put the calf on the cow the minute she calved her own, for the month of March he slept in the arm chair in the kitchen so he was ready to go to the shed at any time. There isn't time now for part time farmers to doin that. Also you introduced scours and the likes into the herd which affected trive & leave a big vet bill.

This year I calved my 20 cows, 21 live calves & only €20 in the vets for the dehorning paste, Last year I lost 1 calf in a set of twins but there was €270 in the vets. Every year my 20 bucket rearded calves cost me in excess of €500 in vets fees, with resflor, synulox tablets, copper bullets and the likes. If I had time and could be in a mart for a few hour every day to pick up the value cattle, then I would only feed short keep store to beef cattle.. but I haven't the time so I find my 20 sucklers cows and the next best payer for my system.

josephsoap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117782868#Comment_117782868

What’s your replacement strategy?

do you run a bull with the herd ?

Anto_Meath

I run a teaser bull and AI for a 8 week period. that way I can pick what bull suits each cow / heifer best. I put a very easy calving bull on heifers mostly AA. Priority is to get a live calf out of a heifer. It's mostly Lmx cows, I would keep the heifers off my best cows and the odd bucket rearded heifer. Any heifer they have would nearly always be kept. I find second & third generation from dairy Limos good cows, they have a nice drop of milk, generally big enough frame & good spins. I am very strict on culling, so to have at least 20 cows a year I would have 24 - 25 to bull. Anything that gives trouble goes, be it bad temper, poor milker or doesn't hold to the AI at the 8th week. I calf outside (paddock beside calving shed) from mid March to mid May. I walk thru my cows every morning and evening during the summer to check for heats & leave them in the crush for AI.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117783103#Comment_117783103

The tight calving window with cows you know that can calf and wean good calves is important especially if you are a part time operator.

Being able to use AI is good, gives you that flexibility.

I use stock bulls (2) one aa and one limo on about 60 but if lameness comes in to one of the bulls then its a real nuisance.

Jjameson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117782868#Comment_117782868

So in essence you are saying lads on fair to good land that need a payment to stay at it are doing it wrong. And that’s not reason for a coupled payment.

Anto_Meath

No I didn't say anyone was doing it wrong. I said what works for me. I said I will take any payment I can get, but that I don't need it to make a profit from my sucklers. I am not that arrogant that I would pass comment on how other farmers are getting on.

Jjameson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117783773#Comment_117783773

There is no shortage of entitled arrogance from the lovers of this system of farming. Demanding subsidised production without any real substantiated reasoning.

This is a thread about a suckler cow payment in case you missed the first page. Not a family farm payment or anything to do with the environment or anything logical.

24 months ago we had a situation where processors were paying €3.45 a kg base because of excess beef!

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117783773#Comment_117783773

But the problem is that if a lad is doing dairy beef he gets no handout. We had a poster state that a suckler's bred steer will kill 40 kgs heavier than a dairyX steer at 22-24 months. However that 40 kgs is subisidized by payments. Suckler payments amount to 160-180 euro, or 4-4.5/ kg for this extra beef. There is no economic advantage to it for the country and lads on good land should not be subsidized to produce it as there is other options available to them.

As well as BPS flow west it negate's the case for any Suckler payments, it especially negate's the case for any extra payments. It's better to redirect Suckler subsidities into better environment payments and into proper dairyX beef research on extensive farming and on poorer quality ground.

At present the UK is preparing legislation to stop long haulage of cattle. I think they are going to reduce to 4-6 hours the length calves can travel in one go. In the same legislation they plan to stop the live export of finished cattle and sheep.How long before France brings in similar legislation.

This will not only see the ending of export of calves but weanlings also. Any subsidity for suckler's should be directed to there reduction. Last year we imported 750k lambs, while processors use them to control prices to an extent they also need them for throughput. We could have a situation in 3-5 years time where certain processing units will close from January to June as they will not have throughput to remain open. You would not have strong winter lamb prices then

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117782776#Comment_117782776

I advised someone a few years ago to change to sheep,

After buying in a lot of sheep last year he has run into bad anthelminitic resistance, when I informed him that some farmers had to get out because of it. He was very disappointed to say the least

Jjameson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117783857#Comment_117783857

The only sound point of argument I seen recently is a letter to the ifj pointing out the carbon footprint of processing milk to milk replacer and back to the calves. He was on a suckler is best narrative of course or it wouldn’t be printed!

But the point stands. Should calves be reared to weaning on farm of birth? In terms of a national dairy calf strategy how is this to incentivised?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117783871#Comment_117783871

Sellers integrity is something of particular concern to me when I go purchasing cattle. I doubt it's all that different from trading within the sheep world. Pure hardship to end up with someone elses problems.

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117783665#Comment_117783665

Question

If there was a scheme of €50-80/hd on dairy cross calves would you sign up?

Jjameson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117785615#Comment_117785615

Not a chance.

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117785694#Comment_117785694

And that’s your choice

If someone else took it or did a bit of overtime at work for increased pay that’s their choice

Jjameson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117785819#Comment_117785819

If there was a ghost of a chance of it staying in the farmers pocket I’d be all for it. But there isn’t. If the cow doesn’t eat it Larry will pocket it.

we have a fodder crisis every 4 years? A beef price crisis every 3 years? Costs are only going one way and coupling money to production never stays where it is supposed to.

Grueller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117785896#Comment_117785896

But staying out is a pyrrhic victory Jjameson. You will still be affected by all of the fallout of the scheme and gain none of the benefits.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117785615#Comment_117785615

A producer has little choice but to sign up in a situation like that. I was totally against both BEAM schemes. That doesn't necessarily make them correct. TBH it would make more sense to pay a subsidity to calf producers as the calves will appear on the ground anyway and production would not increase because of it or decrease if it did not exist. However in general most of it would disappear into dairy farmers pockets if paid on a calf, and into processor's pockets if paid at slaughter. We only have to look back 25+ years ago when there was a winter slaughter premium from January on, processor used to drop the beef price when it was being paid.

Jjameson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786140#Comment_117786140

If a scheme comes out then anyone who is committed to keeping the hoors has to apply. Of course they do, but a victory it is not. And I’d sincerely wish them well with it if they manage to hold onto it!

A paid suckler cow reduction scheme or even a live export subsidy would be a victory!

Jjameson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117785819#Comment_117785819

I suppose I should of added that I don’t rear calves!🙃

ABitofsense

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786464#Comment_117786464

Out of curiosity what type of farming do you do? Are you part time?

Jjameson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786554#Comment_117786554

sheep are now my primary enterprise, (it was always beef of some description, I’ve tried it all bar bulls!) mid season lambing, buy stores for finishing and still continue to finish some generally dairy cross bullocks. Full time farmer with prt time job.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786745#Comment_117786745

According to "the experts" lamb produces more methane.

http://static.ewg.org/reports/2011/meateaters/pdf/methodology_ewg_meat_eaters_guide_to_health_and_climate_2011.pdf

Page 23

I think these numbers make a lot of assumptions, carbon levels can be impacted by inputs.

Why dont they maintain a standard payment not forcing farmers to cut numbers etc and incentivise additional carbon capture / carbon efficiencies on farms?

Jjameson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117786903#Comment_117786903

The methane science is like trying to count grains of sand with a spoon on a beach. The grass or forage has absorbed methane in some form and it is going to released in some form. No animal can produce “new” gas.

if the grass rots it’s released, animal farts it it’s released, the animals dung has to rot, it’s released.

Swop for a tree. It’s going to rot sometime. Soil is a living organism, nothing remotely permanent about what’s in it. The fossil fuels deep in the earth are what should be left there and their measure of use in everything is where the scrutiny should be.

all the waffle about about methane is nonsense but we should use it to our advantage against a cartel of processors. Get paid to cut production.

Anto_Meath

Looks like us suckler farmers are going to get a "little" bit more money https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/the-new-cap-whats-in-it-for-a-20-cow-suckler-farmer/

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118051579#Comment_118051579

You’ll be able to buy a few more in Carnaross tomorrow night.

blue5000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118051579#Comment_118051579

Is anyone else suffering from scheme 'burnout' or is it just me?

It's virtually impossible for me to get all my cows and calves into a yard and crush on my own. I am beginning to think the cows are getting burnt out too from weighing, having their worm eggs counted, calves vaccinated, creep fed and dosed. Not to mention trying to stab me at scanning time or when tagging calves or tb testing. Beam worked great for someone finishing 100 cattle over the winter, but for suckler farmers it was just a pain in the arese, we can't just flog a couple of cows to reduce numbers, calves have to be weaned first.

Maybe I'm just getting old, but last time I checked I was younger than the average farmer.

Easten

Scheme has to be seen as a positive.

This reference year BS is not though. Why do they need to bother with reference years, it's not as if there's a que of Farmers trying to get into suckling. If anything this extra 1k from the scheme probably won't stop lads getting out. You'll find that it will be next impossible to be in the new Glas and keep a meaningful stocking density of sucklers

Lime Tree Farm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118052494#Comment_118052494

We had them split into groups of 10 cows&calves this year and it worked very well.

With the exception of weighing, when they do a jig on the platform. One went head down into the lowest open space at the bottom of the closed headlock, cutting both feet as she got her front feet wedged between the platform and the headlock. To add insult to injury she managed to aim an accurate kick through the bars of the crush to the hand spraying her wounds. A sedative for them should be a requirement first.

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118051579#Comment_118051579

Jayus don’t tell Bass. Hope he has a few close loved ones with him when he hears the news........

Grueller

Any details available for the dairy- beef calf welfare programme?

I see a €25m fund mentioned but no details.

Edited to say that a quick Google tells me that last year's €20 per calf on up to 20 calves was paid at €20 per calf and had a €5m fund.

This leaves the option to seriously bump the payment or increase the numbers in the scheme to more than 20 per farm, or a combination of both.