Proposed New suckler Scheme

Bass Reeves · 08-08-2021 04:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117723655#Comment_117723655

Numbers are away back compared to 2-3 years ago. Very few are doing store bulls from the dairy herd. They would have been squeezed last autumn or spring. A few years ago the bull kill would hit 220-250k this year it will be lucky to hit 100 k. Autumn kl has really been hit as 16-24 month bulls are those most discouraged

mr.stonewall · 08-08-2021 04:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117724096#Comment_117724096

It was an agreement between the the IFA and MII in 2009 when the grid was introduced

Grueller · 08-08-2021 05:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117724094#Comment_117724094

To be fair Bass is kind of right I think. Just today I went out and found a cow calved two days ago looking for her calf. After 20 minutes searching I found the calf in a 6' deep gripe. Had to drag that out.

I gave all day Thursday between a cow with a calf bed out to be got in for the vet. I also had a hard calving Thursday and lost a load of time with time with struggling calf after it.

Friday was lost with drawing 15 cows home to a shed to wean them and moving the weaned heifers to after grass and getting troughs sorted etc.

Saturday was lost in the main getting the 7 cows I have already calved back off the home block to the out farm with their calves as I bring them home to calve them and want the grass at home for the piebalds.

That is 3 days from milking to milking lost with them.

If that were a bunch of dry stock I would have very little of that and even if one was off colour I have good roadways and a handling facility out there so it is easy to manage problems.

amacca · 08-08-2021 10:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117724141#Comment_117724141

Theres almost no justification for it as far as I can see...its another tool to squeeze lads imo

I saw a lad in the IFJ (woods I think) mention it was good for the environment in terms of less emissions, I'm of a mind to directly question that as I'd be of the opinion it promotes more throughput of heads and intensification as well as concentrates feeding to get them fit before thirty months rather than letting them reach their peak off grass at 36/38 months if need be....especially dairy x that dont have the benefit of being single suckled till 6-9 months in some cases

what would be good for the environment would be pay a fair price for the product and make the extensive way the best way to knock a profit out of it....not promote intensification and drive down prices increasing throughput of a cheap product..........the jig must nearly be up on the 30 month bolox at this stage, no wonder MII wanted it.

mr.stonewall · 08-08-2021 10:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117725603#Comment_117725603

With the proposed PGI and bord bia standard for grass fed beef, it allows for up to 36 months. The reasoning that the 30 months is still around, is that we have become conditioned to to it. The line will be thrown out is that the majority of cattle are currently finished under 30 months. U30 is just a tool that the processors use to massage supply and draw out cattle earlier than late autumn. it's the tool that is stopping forward prices from being offered to farmers. The sooner we as farmers wake up and putting pressure on stakeholders on a number of issues that affect us the better. It's not always handouts that we want.

Bass Reeves · 08-08-2021 11:39PM

There is for and against 30 months. It reduces the autumn glut and keeps carcass weights lower. Whether we like it or not market demand is for lighter carcasses for the British market. However should this be incentivised by market rather than a general bonus.

At present with numbers scarce weight limits are not pushed as d and is for throughput. But next year may well be different again. Suckler farmers really need to breed with this in mind if the cattle they breed are for the Irish/ UK market.

I agree with Jjamenson that the environment argument is flawed for early slaughter if it is achieved by feeding ration.

Friesian more than any animal benefit from age especially as many are badly done as stores. However there is a good portion that can be hung under 30 months.

Base price · 09-08-2021 02:55AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117723655#Comment_117723655

When beef prices drop, beef bull prices take the biggest hit - when that happens the factories close ranks and farmers can't get their cattle booked in/killed. I know only too well as in the past we used to buy in up on three hundred FR's, AAx, HEx, continental sucks calves and rear them to finish at under 24 months.

Dairy cross bull beef requires intensive finishing feed regime of at least 70 days of adlib meal (with straw incorporated as roughage) starting at 5/6kgs/hd per day graduating to 12/14kgs/hd per day so as meal prices are only going up let alone the other costs of diesel, insurance, Vet and dosing/minerals it isn't viable.

I previously posted in 2013 why we quit finishing dairy bull beef. Realistically you're working for the whim of the factories.

Bitten & Hisses · 09-08-2021 01:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117724389#Comment_117724389

No offence, but it sounds like the fragmentation of your holding is the main reason sucklers are hardship for you.

The timing of this scheme is a disaster for me. I need another 2-3 years to stabilise my numbers at the optimum stocking rate for this farm. Bord Bia QA scheme is another pile of horse manure in my case as I only ever slaughter cull cows or stock bulls and sell weanlings in the mart. The devil is in the detail, so I'll be making a very careful assessment before I decide whether or not enter this scheme.

Bass Reeves · 09-08-2021 01:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727850#Comment_117727850

You will have little or no choice but to enter QA if you have cows to slaughter. Factories often quote 10-30c/ kg less for non QA cows. Ya this year with tight numbers prices may not be discounted but any year with strong slaughter numbers they are.

Grueller's farm.is not that fragmented. He has if I remember right 50-60 acres around his house and 25 acres about 2-3 miles away with an outside farm of 80 ish acres about 12 miles away.

When you have numbers with Suckler cows you are going to have time issues. Dairycross drystock is totally different. Moving them is easier, handling them. Yesterday I had to move a bunch accross the road I put up a temporary fence from there paddock to the gate to get them up near the road ( pigtails and string) bought them up through the paddock next tothe gate, put a piece of rope as a backfence to stop them going back along it. Out over the ditch put a up my rope accross the road and opened the gate and they trotted accross the road.

Dunedin · 09-08-2021 01:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727977#Comment_117727977

3 farms with one 12 miles apart and you don’t call that fragmented🤔🤔 !! It’s nearly irrelevant if it’s 1 or 20 miles as the hardship is loading them into a trailer.

my farm is literally all together (apart from 7 acres across the road which I take 3 cuts of silage and don’t grass at all). No issue in moving cattle as it’s all in paddocks so just one call and they come running. I time dosing so as they are in the paddock beside the yard for when I want them. I also have a smaller pen and crush in the middle of the farm if I need to inject a one off animal. I can dose 20 yearlings in too but wouldn’t be big enough for the sucklers and calves

You can’t generalise sucklers, as workload differs from farm to farm/ system that you’re operating etc.

09-08-2021 02:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117728392#Comment_117728392

A fragmented farm makes everything more awful. I have 8 private parcels and shares in 6 commonages.

Grueller · 09-08-2021 02:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727850#Comment_117727850

None taken. It is absolutely, but the workload is massive compared to rearing calves and the returns are very similar. Return on time spent is the name of the game now as Bass said.

Grueller · 09-08-2021 02:54PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727977#Comment_117727977

Near enough Bass. 40ish about the house, 18 more 1 mile up the road and 82 more 8 miles away.

Easten · 09-08-2021 02:54PM

Mine is pretty fragmented too.1 main block then 3 smaller blocks.

I end up moving cow pairs about a lot. I'm on the road with the trailer ever second week. I have separate loading/holding pens on each place. It's the only way I can manage.

One place has only 6 acres, I wanted to do a swap with another farmer for a worse field that was close to home but JC it would have been easier to talk to Arlene foster so I gave up in the end

Bitten & Hisses · 09-08-2021 09:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117728624#Comment_117728624

You are of course 100% correct in what you say. There are ways to make sucklers manageable, but dairy stock will always be easier kept.

In a parallel universe, I would have made the decision to convert to dairying at the start of this year. The setup costs would be modest enough for me (the family milked cows here until 1999), but the labour side of things is where it comes unstuck and stops making sense.

Back to the topic of the suckler scheme, has anyone else noted how unusually vocal the Journal are about it? At face value, Adam Woods was critical of the farming organisations across the board, where usually they cosy up to the IFA position. Is it all theatre, or do they mean what they say?

Bass Reeves · 09-08-2021 10:30PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117730451#Comment_117730451

IMO it a lot of total misunderstanding the reality out there. CRISS will increase a lot of Suckler farmers along the west coast payments in this scheme. At present additional Suckler payment cone from Pillar 2 funding. Demands for a no conditions Suckler cow premia ( the demand from DD and FMcC) would be pillar 1 money. It unlikely to reach 300/ cow. However along with Criss money it.leave the choice to farmers in these area whether it makes sense to keep Suckler cows. On really marginal hill land sheep or Suckler cows seem the only option however a few are starting to rear calves and collect payments.

Any future dairy cross calves/growing stock schemes have to have realistic number. Even weighting 50@20/ head is only 1k.

I cannot see where the case for Suckler cows( except for poorer land in the west) where a calf produced even with a subsidy heading for 200 head you still need a base price of 4.5/ kg for it to make a decent margin. With weight limits probably back in next year you are looking at maximum weight of 420kgs but are we far fro. A bonus/penalty at 360-380 kgs

Anto_Meath · 10-08-2021 02:34PM

I laugh at lads recommending that all suckler farmers start rearing dairy beef. I do both and when done right there is money to be made out of both. Could I make more - yes, will I take any money I can get via subsidy once it doesn't have a negative effect on my bottom line - yes.

I bring my suckler cattle to beef at 24 - 30 months off grass around this time of year, the same as the dairy stock, but if lads are used of selling weanlins at the back end of the year for €900 - €1000 they will find it very difficult selling dairy stock 12 -18 months later for only €100 - €200 more. There is no money in selling dairy weanlins or stores, you have to bring them to the hook, or near beef in the mart.

Making money on suckler's is largely based on breeding and getting a system that works for you, not following what everyone else is at. Some lads put all sorts of cow / heifers in calf and don't think of what they will breed. They think that every cow can calf a big Charolais bull and then wonder why the have vet bills up in the thousands.

Anto_Meath · 10-08-2021 03:51PM

They will need to sell stock in the back end of the year for income, they have their farm set up to paid bills when the cattle are sold, they pay for the rented land, merchant bills and bank loans. Disrupting this cash flow will have a knock on effect on all these things. I know from personal experience that dairy bred stock take a lot more feeding that suckler bred and they don't convert it to weight as good. Suckler bred cattle will put on weight in a shed on average silage where as dairy bred will be lucky to hold their own. Suckler cows will be grand getting average silage, they will hold their condition no bother. I put 14 18 - 24 month old bullocks in a pen. 2 blocks of silage will feed them each day no bother with some left over if they are all suckler bred. If the are Fr or AAx from dairy then a pen of them would eat two and a half blocks of silage a day.

Bass Reeves · 10-08-2021 03:55PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117733557#Comment_117733557

Bucket fed weanling are the easiest animal you ever carry over the winter. Any way decent silage with minerals and a kg of ration if you like will have them thriving. Stop the ration late January and compensatory growth at grass. Keep them moving onto fresh grass as calves ever 2-3 days and as yearlings every 7-10 days if possible.

When you house them the second winter probably no ration as lads discount them if they are hot. Even selling at 18 months after only one winter 450 kg FR are making 750 euro even if they were 100 euro calves they will leave a decent margin.

Just be patient buying calves and do not get carried away. Sell Jan/ Feb calves at 16-20 months and keep March/ April calves until following spring

Base price · 11-08-2021 01:03AM

How many of ye that are advocating dairy/dairy cross calf to beef/store to beef have actually done it and if so how many do you rear and for how many years have you been at it?

Do you think that dairy/dairy cross calves, cmr, ration, inputs are going to get cheaper in the near future. In fairness as the dairy herd further increases (which it will) and pressure comes on calf/weanling exports (which will happen) the price of calves will probably collapse. I wonder will we see large factory style calf rearing farms similar to those in USA where the calf's welfare is compromised because it becomes a numbers game in order to turn a profit. TBH I hope never to see such a situation in Ireland but sure we're half way there with some dairy operations.

Anto_Meath · 11-08-2021 08:31AM

You are probably not wrong Base Price, if you look at the pig, chicken or dairy industries they are all based on numbers, you have to be working with large numbers to make a profit. This in turn leads to large meal / feed bills & then when things go wrong large finical problems..

Bass Reeves · 11-08-2021 09:46AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117735843#Comment_117735843

Yes I reared calves for a while. It was a few years after we first bought the farm. My single farm payment was not sorted. There was little margin in bigger cattle as lads had not readjusted I entered reps and ran the place with minimum stock. I had no shed or housing.

Used to have 20 ish calves. As I was traveling with work I could not really do that many and I gave it up after about 4 year after I build a shed for cattle . I started buying weanlings which had softened considerably. I only had a few acres around the house so managing calves that way was awkward as well. I had only a small shed 18X10.

It really all diwn to the price you pay for them. Then any livestock operation is the same. Patience is a huge virtue in a mart. If you carry to finish a plan calf will often leave as much as a fancy one.

Everything in beef is cost control. A strip grazing/ small paddock system is a must if you want to make money. It amazing how much money you save buying in bulk and you have better control of quality.

No I can never see it going down large factory style operations. Ration costs are getting too high. AIBP tried it with Hereford calves a few years ago. Losses were horrendous I am lead to believe as staff had little interest. Neither would I at 10-12 euro/ hour.

All beef is about cost efficiency not technical efficiency. No point in increasing output by 25% but your costs increase by 10-20%,you end up working harder and your hourly rate goes from 20/hour to 12/hour.

kollegeknight · 11-08-2021 07:35PM

Dairy x would struggle here. Cows spend their days grazing to get enough to make milk. Weanlings don’t over fatten here.

we were dairy farmers years ago and it was hardship, the land just isn’t good enough.

Dunedin · 11-08-2021 08:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117739552#Comment_117739552

If a choice between dairy x and dairy x, I’d probably plant it........

Hard Knocks · 11-08-2021 10:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117740070#Comment_117740070

We’d 2 AAX & 2 HEX heifers here last year, wild as hell and wouldn’t flesh.

Over the winter they’d out eat a suckler cow and still be skin & bone

We’d other dairy cross before that done well and were quite, it’s likes of these bad ones that turn lads off the dairy cross

Bass Reeves · 11-08-2021 11:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117740174#Comment_117740174

When we all change out system we can find it hard to judge the cattle first. A lot of lads were hesitant about online bidding yet now there are some that buy 50-100% of there cattle online. You were really unlucky to end up with 4 wild dairyX cattle. Sometime one wild one will drive the rest scatty. But after a few mistakes generally you get to manage the change