Social Democrats

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120278973#Comment_120278973

You can run opinion polls without an election or referendum. Governments and private companies do it all the time. I'm sure you could open a phone book and even find someone to do one for you if you liked.

But please answer my questions, how are FFG so supportive of reproductive rights and lgbtq+ while not caring one iota about the disabled, elderly on trolleys and the homeless?

Furze99

At end of the day, the Greens, SocDems and Labour are all pulling at the same type of urban/ suburban voter these days. They should do the citizens a favour, merge into a new party and offer real credible opposition to the FG/FF hegemony, an alternative that is acceptable to the Republics voters.

Topgear on Dave

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120278974#Comment_120278974

He'll do well so. He sounds like my local fella at home who has the seat for about 20 years, hes practically anonymous in the national media.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120278992#Comment_120278992

SF has strong support uin the younger demograpics. Labour has not. That "generational change" idea would have a very strong momentum if the SocDems were to take on Labour. Both are fringe parties at the moment. But only one has a future.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279016#Comment_120279016

Too many snouters and too few places at the trough. Green voters (non water melon variety) are also quite different to Labour and SocDem voters.

Regards...jmcc

Augme

Soc dems have done very well for such a new party. Finding, good, credible candidates is always going to be a struggle but there cohort of TDs are all very strong. Whether can find more is the big question.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279032#Comment_120279032

Not really, all are enthusiastic nanny staters and woke progressives , no reason environmental goals can’t dovetail

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279126#Comment_120279126

Green voters (non-water melon variety) have been described as FG on bikes. This is why they are quite different to Labour and the SocDems. The Greens had an influx of water melons from Labour in 2016 and they even tried to remove Eamon Ryan as leader in a coup. It didn't work. Some of them then went off and set up Green Left and nothing was ever heard from them again.

Regards...jmcc

cal naughton

I don't think Cairns is a shoe in at the next election cork south west is a tight 3 seater. Since election she has criticised dairy farming in particular which is a huge part of the large dairy industry in that area. I don't think that will go down too well. Her family themselves are former dairy farmers who have converted to seed production.

Also interesting that she is Cork's only female TD.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279013#Comment_120279013

'Please answer my questions' says the lad avoiding the question about the claim he just made and trying to distract attention from his 'lip service' false allegation.

Yes, you CAN run opinion polls at any time, that is correct. Now it's time for you to be specific - are you saying that opinion polls showed that both these referendums were a safe bet before the referendums were actually put on the agenda? That's your claim, so you need to either back it up, or have the decency to confirm that it is an opinion, and not a fact.

Lip service me arse.

Beechwoodspark

I don’t get the holly cairns hype

she would be a useless leader

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279385#Comment_120279385

I don't really understand what you're asking for? I think you want me to go and find opinion polls pre-referendum? But for some reason they'd have to be before the referendums were announced? What would the point be?

But again do please answer my question. How can FFG be so brave and progressive, yet clearly have no concern for the disabled, unhoused, or elderly?

retalivity

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279422#Comment_120279422

Young, female, progressive, a rural-ish face for an urban party, name recognition from the mother and baby reparations.

She ticks a lot of boxes.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279422#Comment_120279422

Correct.

But she would be exactly the sort of person with zero political capital, that could be the sacrificial lamb to bring the SDs back into the Labour Party fold and then be disposed of.

I think thats why Gannon and probably Whitmore will stay completely in the background on this one.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279030#Comment_120279030

I agree that SF is gathering a deal of support in 20-30 demographic but how firm is that support? Even young people who may have heard Mary Lou condemn the shooting of a policeman this morning will raise an eyebrow if they hear the same party leader address the SF Ard Fheis and note the lavish praise heaped on the hard men of violence. SF is a growing force in the Republic's politics but that can wither away just as easily if there is a credible alternative clearly democratic left of centre party.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279487#Comment_120279487

Why would any Soc Dems TD join a toxic brand like Lavpur though? It really doesn't make sense at all.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279440#Comment_120279440

I'm asking you to back up your claim that "I'm pretty sure all the polling beforehand strongly indicated both proposals would pass". You're saying that FG (in this case) paid 'lip service' by only running referendums that they were sure would pass. I'm telling you, as someone that was involved in both of those referendums are varying levels, that no one knew they would pass at the time that they were being planned. It was a huge risk for FG, and particularly for FF, where Martin had to deal with the majority of his TDs campaigning against him and the referendum.

These were brave decisions by both FF and FG that significantly improved Ireland as a place to live for many people.

I'm not going to get dragged into a broader discussion. I'm first to criticise FF and FG for many of the things they've done and not done.

But to say that they 'paid lip service' is factually untrue.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279260#Comment_120279260

Yeah , the lady from Achill island being one of the more high profile examples ( McHugh )

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279568#Comment_120279568

To succeed.

Labour and the Soc Dems can hang together, or hang separately, as they say.

Labour might have some residual toxicity left over from 2011, sure, but the same could be said for FF, FG, Greens and yet there they all are, living on the corridors of power, with the Mercs and the Perks.

A centrist coalition of FG, FF and a newly enlarged Labour could easily get 100 seats in the next Dáil and deny SF the formation of a Government, even if they exceed expectations and top 60 seats.

In fact thats just the plausible scenario that ought make SF supporters turn a bit pale.

We've had the splintering of Irish politics folks, as sure as night follows day, the re-consolidation is coming, albeit with three larger blocks instead of the old two.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279588#Comment_120279588

My crowd's so much bigger than yours.

But you know what, let's just pretend you're correct and say the outcome of these referendums was actually in doubt.

That doesn't mean they weren't taken to attract a youth vote, knowing the older vote was always going to stay FFG.

Now will you deal with my other point? If FFG are such brave, social justice warriors, can you explain then their treatment of the disabled, the elderly and the unhoused?

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279485#Comment_120279485

She won't get the farming vote, that will be a setback if she hopes to be re elected.

Galwayguy35

Cairns is laying it on thick over on Twitter saying how great Shorthall and Murphy are, all BS of course when they were average at best as TDs

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279681#Comment_120279681

You’re crowd aren’t FF TDs. It goes waaaaaaay beyond lip service to drive victory in the two referendums. There was real leadership in both parties that brought many centrist middle aged and older voters out to vote Yes.

And no, I won’t get into your false dichotomy argument about a claim I never made.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279723#Comment_120279723

How is it a false dichotomy?

You claim FFG weren't paying lip service to social issues.

I'm challenging that by showing they've consistently ignored social issues which might involve unpopular decisions or difficult reform.

You're refusing to answer that claim. I'm in no way limiting the argument. You're free to bring anything else you like which answers to my point.

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279751#Comment_120279751

The smoking ban was an unpopular decision when it came in because a lot more people were smokers back then yet they went ahead with it knowing it could cost them votes.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279880#Comment_120279880

I don't think it was unpopular overall, I think it was very unpopular with smokers who made a lot of noise, but popular with non-smokers.

And nearly 20 years ago.

But thanks for at least answering my point.

Triangle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120278934#Comment_120278934

Ahhh now come on, they even didn't use the whip on their own TDs for canvassing/supporting it.

From an Indo article at the time:

"Speaking anonymously, one TD said there was "no personal benefit" from the referendum as campaigning for a Yes vote would "upset as many as it pleases".

Your hatred is giving you a false memory.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279880#Comment_120279880

It wasn't really that unpopular.

On the contrary it had great popular support.

It was unpopular with the publicans.

You know them, the ones that are supposed to have the government in their pockets ?

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279921#Comment_120279921

But where it was unpopular, it wasn't going to cost them votes.

Those who felt strongly against it didn't switch to any of the fringe parties who opposed it and were never likely to.

Whereas it gained a lot of support amongst younger voters. Especially those middle class voters likely to swing to FFG.

MegamanBoo

While I'm happy to continue the argument on FFG paying lip service to social issues...

The point as it relates to the Social Democrats is that smaller parties will struggle even more to compete with larger established parties. Such parties can use to power of social media and data analytics to cherry-pick issues they believe will win them favor with key demographics.

Parties like the Social Democrats no longer solely own the left, liberal, middle-class space.

FFG will target this space, especially for younger demographics, by promising economic growth along with certain social outlooks.