First olympic transgender athlete to compete at Tokyo 2020 **MOD NOTE IN OP**

meeeeh

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

I think youre missing the point. Its hardly a relatively niche sport if its considered to be an Olympic sport. Every contestant involved worked hard for their place and all those biological women stand a much slimmer chance of achieving their goal because a trans woman is taking part. A biological woman lost her place to make room for a trans women.
When it comes to trans women & biological womens rights, trans women trump biological women every time it seems.
I can accept a trans woman as a woman, I can call anyone by any term they wish to be called by. I wont disregard facts for the sake of the trans community feelings of insecurities.
A trans woman was once a male, regardless of how they felt about themselves at the time, their body was male! There is no undoing the differences in male and female bodies, no matter how much a trans person wants this to be the case.
Biological women, who worked extremely hard to get to the place theyre at have now had a massive barrier put in their way. Theyre expected to compete against someone who has the body, bone density, muscle mass and build of a man. Theyre now collectively at a disadvantage, the bar has been moved and they have work 10 times harder to win as the trans woman does. An uneven playing field has been created where the women are solely at a disadvantage.
This is totally unfair and to make it worse, any woman that stands up against it is labelled as a TERF. A sexist term freely used against women when they try to protect their rights, by the trans community.

Words, terms and phrases associated with biological women/female anatomy are slowly dissipating from health and educational resources as they offend trans women.
Safe public women's spaces like changing rooms & toilets where women and girls are vulnerable are being opened up to trans women with no surgery.
Now, trans women who retain the strength, body mass, bone & muscle density of their male bodies are permitted to compete against women in female only sports teams.
This is an escalating issue that is already leaving women at a massive disadvantage. Why arent womens right being considered at all in any of this?

Because unfortunately we can be a bit or a bit less of a woman. I will never compete with top female performers, not just because I don't have the work rate but also because I don't have physique. There were plenty of complaints about Kenyan runners competing under Turkish flag in European Championships and depriving European runners of getting a medal. However it was inside the rules and there always was an uneven playing field in sports. As I said I suspect rules will change again with more research on the subject but at the moment it's legal and almost the whinging won't change it.

As for debate about toilets or changing rooms I'm afraid I find it very illogical and just a way to tell women to be afraid of another boogeyman. I'm all for battling sexual or any other violence but I also believe in rational approach of looking where the main danger is. We have a lot more of a chance to be raped by a man who won't pretend to be a woman.

GreeBo

Larbre34 wrote: »

The best suggestion I saw all day was for a transgender games.

I'm not going to rant because it's of little value, but there's simply no circumstances where entering a person born with male physiology in a competition for people of female physiology can be fair or equitable or in compliance with the Olympic ideal.

The reason you will never have a transgender games is because, other than possibly gymnastics, it will be dominated by biological men, which will be a bit awkward for the cause I reckon.

BluePlanet

BluePlanet wrote: »

seems like your saying: women are different and can't compete with men.

I don't need to say that, it's just a fact that in most physical sports, men can outperform women because of biological differences that have already been pinted out in this thread.

Like. Sure, women are shorter and have a lower center of gravity, but there is no way to leverage that in a track sprint, tennis, rugby, etc.

BluePlanet wrote: »

They should be segregated

This is the solution we've come up with to ensure that women who want to push the limits of their physical ability in sports get to compete in a far way, yeah.

BluePlanet

WrenBoy wrote: »

Aren't you defending Hubbard ? but you say you don't want women pushed out of the sport ??

I don't want women pushed out of sport.

I want them to compete on equal footing with men.
Where that is not possible and for some reason they aren't creating strategies that benefit shorter height and lower centre of gravity, then let's just make quotas to insure ALL sports are representative.

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

The rules are the rules, if you want them changed then maybe Olympic committee or weight lifting organisations would be a better target.

Of course. But first: awareness.

Thank you for contributing.

meeeeh

Tilden Katz wrote: »

Yes, that is also a problem. I haven't written any posts about it because the subject of this thread is current and making news headlines. This is whataboutery - "Look at this big distraction over here!"

And on the bolded bit - excuse me? I do feel sorry for the women in this and other sports who have been displaced. Are you inside my head? How could you possibly know what my feelings are towards these women? I love that any valid criticism of transgender people is touted as unfair and bigoted as is they are above criticism where no other other group in society is. And the people who accuse people of this bigotry never have any robust rebuttals. If it truly was bigotry, surely you would? So it's just 'sling mud and hope some of it sticks'. That's all you have.

The point you are missing is that you are critising trans people when you should be criticising rules. It proves exactly my point that this is not about fairness but about trans people.

kildare lad

BluePlanet wrote: »

With non-segregated sports, we can then set gender quotas if you're actually worried that women can't compete with men.

But women can't compete with men , the USA women's football team got beaten by a team of 15 yo boys . Look at the men's and women's world records in athletics and compare the difference . No female tennis player would make in into the top 100 of men's tennis , im not to sure that many women would step into a boxing ring with a man either . If you've even watched female boxing there's hardly ever a knock out because they don't have the power .If you made half a rugby team female , the men on the opposition would constantly be targeting them as the weak link . All this woke nonsense has to stop , men and women are just different biologically no matter how much pretend they're not . Leave the men's sport to the men and women's to the women's . I

BluePlanet

BluePlanet wrote: »

Where that is not possible and for some reason they aren't creating strategies that benefit shorter height and lower centre of gravity, then let's just make quotas to insure ALL sports are representative.

Sports are not "representative". They are competitive. Which is why men cannot play in women's categories but women who can be competitive are usually not barred from competing in men's categories. It just seldom happens that women are competitive in men's categories.

irelandrover

BluePlanet wrote: »

I don't want women pushed out of sport.

I want them to compete on equal footing with men.
Where that is not possible and for some reason they aren't creating strategies that benefit shorter height and lower centre of gravity, then let's just make quotas to insure ALL sports are representative.

If you have 50% men and 50% women in the sprint competition then the first 2 rounds will knock out all the women, and the semi and final will be the men that entered. This will be the case every single event. No one will watch the first 2 rounds as they will be completely pointless.

kildare lad

irelandrover wrote: »

If you have 50% men and 50% women in the sprint competition then the first 2 rounds will knock out all the women, and the semi and final will be the men that entered. This will be the case every single event. No one will watch the first 2 rounds as they will be completely pointless.

How about we give them a head start ???

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

The point you are missing is that you are critising trans people when you should be criticising rules. It proves exactly my point that this is not about fairness but about trans people.

The rules are designed to be “non transphobic”. In the debate on sport most pro trans arguments are to allow transwomen in female sports, transitioned or not. And in fact if you believe that transwomen are women that’s logical.

Tilden Katz

meeeeh wrote: »

The point you are missing is that you are critising trans people when you should be criticising rules. It proves exactly my point that this is not about fairness but about trans people.

Sorry but transgender people aren't powerless here. Martina Navratilova's old coach is transgender and she now says that she shouldn't have competed against women and speaks out on the topic now. You're saying here that transgender women have no agency. That they can't say "You know what? I don't think my competing against women is fair". The IOC has said themselves that the 2015 rule change might be too lenient and you'd think a transgender athlete might look into that. Surely transgender women athletes don't think that they are anatomically exactly the same as women? On top of that, to me, a transgender woman beating women would be such an empty victory. There is absolutely no honour in it.

BluePlanet

kildare lad wrote: »

But women can't compete with men , the USA women's football team got beaten by a team of 15 yo boys . Look at the men's and women's world records in athletics and compare the difference . No female tennis player would make in into the top 100 of men's tennis , im not to sure that many women would step into a boxing ring with a man either . If you've even watched female boxing there's hardly ever a knock out because they don't have the power .If you made half a rugby team female , the men on the opposition would constantly be targeting them as the weak link . All this woke nonsense has to stop , men and women are just different biologically no matter how much pretend they're not . Leave the men's sport to the men and women's to the women's . I

But the thing is, Sport is just entertainment.
It should serve a societal good, not create and copperfasten injustices.

It's not all that different to the arguments that people made to keep black athletes out of sport.
By segregating women in this way, you are supporting the idea that they are inferior or something. It becomes rational to pay them less because they don't capture as much viewership etc

However, say in football, if every team was composed of an equal number of men and women, all paid nearly the same. Well that would open a lot of opportunity to women athletes, and would also put immense pressure on countries that are more sexist.

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

The point you are missing is that you are critising trans people when you should be criticising rules. It proves exactly my point that this is not about fairness but about trans people.

Most of the posts here are talking about the fairness, or not, of trans women competing in women's sports. It's impossible to discuss that issue without talking about transwomen.

You'll notice that nobody is saying anything about trans men because, for reasons I'm sure are a total mystery, it just doesn't happen that trans men take part in sports after transition and end up breaking records, competing in the highest-level tournaments, and taking places that would otherwise go to hardworking men in peak physical condition a decade or two younger than them.

ceadaoin.

BluePlanet wrote: »

I don't want women pushed out of sport.

I want them to compete on equal footing with men.
Where that is not possible and for some reason they aren't creating strategies that benefit shorter height and lower centre of gravity, then let's just make quotas to insure ALL sports are representative.

This is just a rehash of women just aren't trying hard enough if they can't compete with men. As if any "strategies " can negate biological reality. Complete nonsense and offensive af.

BluePlanet

BluePlanet wrote: »

Nothing wrong with the status quo huh?
Keep women out of our sports and pay them less -that bout right?

Let’s not turn your idea of genderless sports, ie the decimation of female sports into a pseudo feminist argument. Because that it isn’t.

BluePlanet

BluePlanet wrote: »

But the thing is, Sport is just entertainment.
It should serve a societal good, not create and copperfasten injustices.

It's not all that different to the arguments that people made to keep black athletes out of sport.
By segregating women in this way, you are supporting the idea that they are inferior or something. It becomes rational to pay them less because they don't capture as much viewership etc

However, say in football, if every team was composed of an equal number of men and women, all paid nearly the same. Well that would open a lot of opportunity to women athletes, and would also put immense pressure on countries that are more sexist.

That is the single worst take I have ever heard on this.

Women are inferior to men in the vast vast majority of sports and in no way deserve to be paid the same.

Sport isn't just entertainment either.

ceadaoin.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That is the single worst take I have ever heard on this.

Women are inferior to men in the vast vast majority of sports and in no way deserve to be paid the same.

Sport isn't just entertainment either.

Yeah pretty sure it's more than entertainment for the girls who can hope to achieve a college education because of it or to be lifted out of poverty. A bit like the competitor displaced by laurel Hubbard in the competition I posted the picture of earlier who grew up in homeless shelters. But sure the child of a millionaire is more disadvantaged than her now and she shouldn't complain.

meeeeh

Tilden Katz wrote: »

Sorry but transgender people aren't powerless here. Martina Navratilova's old coach is transgender and she now says that she shouldn't have competed against women and speaks out on the topic now. You're saying here that transgender women have no agency. That they can't say "You know what? I don't think my competing against women is fair". The IOC has said themselves that the 2015 rule change might be too lenient and you'd think a transgender athlete might look into that. Surely transgender women athletes don't think that they are anatomically exactly the same as women? On top of that, to me, a transgender woman beating women would be such an empty victory. There is absolutely no honour in it.

I'm not saying the have no agency. They can lobby the same as everyone else but you seem to think they are setting the rules.

BluePlanet

BluePlanet wrote: »

But the thing is, Sport is just entertainment.
It should serve a societal good, not create and copperfasten injustices.

It's not all that different to the arguments that people made to keep black athletes out of sport.
By segregating women in this way, you are supporting the idea that they are inferior or something. It becomes rational to pay them less because they don't capture as much viewership etc

Again. A pseudo feminist argument. Your genderless sports would see women’s sports be destroyed.

However, say in football, if every team was composed of an equal number of men and women, all paid nearly the same. Well that would open a lot of opportunity to women athletes, and would also put immense pressure on countries that are more sexist.

Do you want to force that by law? What’s to stop transwomen taking these positions?

And what about non team sports like tennis?

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

I'm not saying the have no agency. They can lobby the same as everyone else but you seem to think they are setting the rules.

How do you hope to discriminate against a transwomen of the laws or rules say they are legal women?

ceadaoin.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Again. A pseudo feminist argument. Your genderless sports would see women’s sports be decimated.



Do you want to force that by law? What’s to stop transwomen taking these positions?

And what about non team sports like tennis?

Take a look at the Iranian women's soccer team. Many countries would do away with biological females playing any sport altogether if given the means, which they now have. Progressive according to some

kildare lad

BluePlanet wrote: »

But the thing is, Sport is just entertainment.
It should serve a societal good, not create and copperfasten injustices.

It's not all that different to the arguments that people made to keep black athletes out of sport.
By segregating women in this way, you are supporting the idea that they are inferior or something. It becomes rational to pay them less because they don't capture as much viewership etc

However, say in football, if every team was composed of an equal number of men and women, all paid nearly the same. Well that would open a lot of opportunity to women athletes, and would also put immense pressure on countries that are more sexist.

I think you have to be trolling . I don't think you have a clue about sports either .

BluePlanet

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Take a look at the Iranian women's soccer team. Many countries would do away with biological females playing any sport altogether if given the means, which they now have.

Oh you think that Iran is forced to have a women only soccer team?
If Iran wanted to eliminate it, it would and it wouldn't need anybody's permission.

kildare lad

kildare lad wrote: »

I think you have to be trolling . I don't think you have a clue about sports either .

Interestingly enough a few years ago to suggest that the trans movement would do away with female sports was considered reactionary. Now we have people arguing for “genderless” sports.

ceadaoin.

BluePlanet wrote: »

Oh you think that Iran is forced to have a women only soccer team?
If Iran wanted to eliminate it, it would and it wouldn't need anybody's permission.

They already are well on the way to eliminating women from the team. Probably have by now. Guess they just didn't try hard enough though


https://amp.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/eight-of-iran-womens-football-team-are-men-according-to-allegations-20151002-gjzlfk.html

meeeeh

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How do you hope to discriminate against a transwomen of the laws or rules say they are legal women?

Because the sports rules are bit more nuanced as Caster Semanya will tell you. Bedsides sport is not necessarily fair as those Irish born players who missed on playing in Irish football team because someone in England happens to have an Irish granny know. The disappointment those players who worked for their whole life hoping to end in Irish team and they are beaten by someone who never lived in Ireland.

Tilden Katz

meeeeh wrote: »

I'm not saying the have no agency. They can lobby the same as everyone else but you seem to think they are setting the rules.

I don't think they are setting the rules. The rules changes didn't come of nowhere though.

nj27

I CANNOT WAIT to watch this. What more can you say? This is going to be a watch party. I'll prolly nut!

meeeeh

Tilden Katz wrote: »

I don't think they are setting the rules. The rules changes didn't come of nowhere though.

Was it voodoo?