Hurling- what’s gone wrong and where do we go from here.

lim4ev

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120470339#Comment_120470339

I'll tell you how it's clear its absolutely awful to watch a lot of it, I'm a limerick man to the bone watching us since 1980 and so proud of our current bunch but if you can't see despite your infatuation with attendances that the spectacle has decreased ..... well I can't help you

lim4ev

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120471103#Comment_120471103

what in the name of God is this supposed to mean?? what are you suggesting??

Denny61

They should forget about the league..it has lost its value .all it is now is a training exercise and finding new players...there should be only one competition now ..and played On a champions league format..let's say 20 teams of 5 in each group..each play each other twice..plus a reward system like rugby.. win equal to 3 points..score more than 5 goals..a bonus point..keep within 7 points of the winning team. You get a losing bonus point... .it can be started in February..take a break in May resume in June and end September....at the moment. Real hurling competition is been condensed in to such a short period of time..we no sooner getting ready to enjoy it .suddenly its down to 4 counties..most people I've talked to say they can see it on its death knell and no appetite any more for it ...

.

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120479829#Comment_120479829

This is an extraordinary recommendation. A 20 team competition would (based on the final standings in the League) see potentially Wicklow playing Limerick home and away.

Throw in bonus points for goals and winning margins and it's a system designed to humiliate teams and ensure empty stadiums in a competition which despite all the anyone-could-beat-anyone-else "on a given day" nonsense has a fairly obvious top 4/6.

What a disastrous format you have suggested. Some people including media and players seem to think that a "Champions League format" solves all the huge inequalities between teams. And trying to force rugby style bonus points onto the competition to incentivise one of the top 6 teams to obliterate maybe London or Sligo by even more would really solve a lot of problems. And you are concerned about the public's "appetite" for the sport. This is a system designed to destroy all interest.

There's also a false narrative getting an awful lot of air that getting rid of the National League or worst case at least trying to make sure there's no semi finals or final achieves something. The alternative would be a few months of challenge matches. The League is doing little harm. With no inter-county hurling beyond July as it is I'm not sure how reducing further the number of games so that there's nothing before the end of April achieves much. Again, a strange inclusion in a post which raises the issue of how reduced the hurling season has become. The solution is hardly to reduce it further?

But the idea that in hurling where team number one can beat team number two by 11 points in the League Final should have a single championship competition with 20 teams is the highlight.

People in the GAA invest way too much time watching soccer and rugby. The recurring phrase "Champions League format", and "play each other twice" in any such discussions is a big giveaway. Any suggestions on a championship format needs to recognise the small number of competitive teams at the top end. And for a variety of reasons hurling desperately needs the National League to work and be given breathing space instead of being abolished. Just because something sounds radical doesn't make it a good idea.

Field east

I find most of the hand passes in hurling to be very, very questionable. Is’nt it incredible that RTE is in a unique position to prove me wrong or otherwise yet it chooses to 99.999999999999999 % ignores it. I wonder why ? . IMO I think that it has been ‘got at’ by the GAA hierarchy because it would show up the referees that turn a ‘blind eye’ to it.

What, it think, is happening is that most teams -the ones that want to win at all costs- will test the ref to breaking point and if the ref has two very ‘ bad ‘blind eyes’ the players will just throw all balls at will especially if it is a kind of out of sight of the ref. The rule is a JOKE.

lim4ev

as a spectacle the game has definitely gone down, there's no doubt the skill levels are as high as they've ever been but the excitement of the 50 50 ball in particular has been reduced because the players are so skilful.

for me the score a minute gets tedious I'm not criticising these wonderful players but you shouldn't be able to put the ball over the bar from outside the d as diarmuid byrnes did in all Ireland final last year, make the ball heavier and reduce the bas size of the hurley it won't cure all ills but surely would help?

Charlie69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120479682#Comment_120479682

But throwing the ball is the problem... what you're suggesting would help the referee but would actually make the game worse.

If you could throw the ball underhand as hard as you like with accuracy, why would you stick pass at all?.. It would become a game of basketball.

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120480158#Comment_120480158

If refs are going to enforce it 100 percent of the time whats the point having the rule? The foul handpass is easy to see and penalise. Yet the top refs dont enforce it.

evolvingtipperary101

The game would become so fast if you could throw it underhanded that a ref would have no chance of keeping up with the game. You'd have lads throwing the ball fifty yards underhanded.

The handpass is a real skill when done properly. And it should be kept but it must be reffed. But players are so fit it's hard for refs to keep up and spot these transgressions.

Investment in refs and refereeing is a disaster at the moment - every other side of the game has gone way ahead.

Charlie69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120480626#Comment_120480626

Agreed.... 👍

Charlie69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120480535#Comment_120480535

That's it though, the problem is its not being reffed properly. Throwing the ball is hurting the game badly, allowing it would only make things worse.

Davys Fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120479682#Comment_120479682

Might as well get rid of the hurls altogether in that case..Mad suggestion

joebloggs32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120479943#Comment_120479943

I got a text from a friend of mine who has refereed All Ireland hurling finals after attending one of the league games. In his opinion that day about 90% of the handpasses were illegal.

The argument that if referees started blowing for them a match would be ruined with too many frees holds little water. The players would quickly adapt.

Likewise the argument that referees are afraid of being shown up blowing for a legitimate handpass is also a fallacy. They are letting anything go, often leading to scores, and the pundits ignore it the dodgy handpass.

I'm coming around to the idea that a handpass wiil either have to be off the hurl.or from opposite hands.

raindodger

think the biggest problem and ugliest thing in hurling are the rucks to use rugby speak they are like a rolling maul and usually finish with adodgy handpass or a free.

old school here if you could see the ball you could pull on it and if some one wanted to put his foot on it that was his problem. ruck solved

Field east

If all hand passes were pulled up and especially if scores came from them, the players would not long be copping on to the outcome and stop doing it. What would also help putting a stop to the illegal hand pass would be if the following rule was brought in:-

a free resulting from an illegal hand pass And that is a score over the crossbar - the score is awarded as TWO POINTS and if under the bar FOUR POINTS to be awarded.

In addition to the above, if the illegal hand pass occurs in the culprits half of the field , an equivalent line ball - ie off the ground- is given and where the ball makes initial intact with the ground a free is given and then above potentially applies if there is a score

the above then gives the offending team a significant incentive to stop illegally hand passing. The ref then has to play his part and really implement the rule.

there would be much less of it anyway under current rules if the ref blew up all such passes seen. There is no difference , in principal between an illegal hand pass and a player chopping down on another players Hurley or a trip. They are ALL FOULS - it’s just that the refs choose not to blow up for most illegal hand passes

Eoinbmw

Some suggestions are absolutely moronic altogether!

Just ref the game strictly and this overblown handpass controversy will fade away!

Re writing the GAA rulebook would be a terrible idea!

The 2 man tackle and parrticularly the free arm tackle need to be refined and refereed better this would lead to less need to handpass!

When players are being held up by 2 players and with their free arms they should penalise the tackler not the player in possession!

randd1

That’s not a bad idea, but when the man in possession decides that he’s going to bust through an opponent, then what do you do?

I think anyone putting the head down or taking the ball into contact should be immediately done for charging, because they’re showing no intention of playing the ball within the legal number of steps.

Alongside that, you pass a rule that says you can’t use your spare arm, with the exception of the shoulder, to tackle an opponent.

It would mean you’d have one lad who would have to to play the ball properly not allowing him to barge/take steps but could only be tackled without being wrapped up, and the tackler could only intercede by using a hook/block/flick or a shoulder, but would be able to as the opponent wouldn’t be barging and would be trying to play the ball.

Asdfgh2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120483495#Comment_120483495

the trouble with the illegal / limerick style hand pass is that they are extremely difficult to spot in real time by the ref….very easy for the arm chair experts amongst us with the aid of slow mo replays etc but when the game is at full pace and ref is behind play or unsighted then it’s extremely difficult for them to make the right call consistently…..only other option is to introduce a VAR type set up like the Saw-ker and da rub-bee…!

Silly comment

windy shepard henderson

hand pass off the hurl only is the way to go ..

Asdfgh2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120485995#Comment_120485995

I take it you are referring to comment above…care to elaborate a bit..?

Corcaigh84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120483400#Comment_120483400

I don't think it's the biggest problem, it's behind throwball in my opinion. Have the rules actually changed on this? Is it deemed dangerous play to pull on the ball on the ground now? I'm in agreement with you by the way.

Going to the latest Cork minor and U-20 matches down the Pairc and seeing the odd ruck happen I thought to myself have any of these lads been on the end of a flaking before? Because by looking at them fool around with their legs trying to flick the ball away to make space to rise it, it's clear they are in no fear of being pulled on, because why would they be?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120487341#Comment_120487341

"Pulling on it" is neanderthal stuff. Ya it gets the ball out of the ruck but to where exactly. You have as much hope of giving the ball away so what's the point.

I hope Cork take your advice. It'll only prolong your wait for another All Ireland.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120486134#Comment_120486134

As long as it comes with a huge crackdown on fouling of the hurley arm which also happens all the time. Probably easier spot than the hand pass* at least.

*The Limerick style pass 🤣 even though this definitely isn't a thread about Limericks dominance 🤣

Freneys Treasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120490635#Comment_120490635

I think we'll never see a return of widespread ground hurling, at least without rule changes to facilitate it nor have I stated that I would like to see a return of it, but you do realise that you can direct the ball when striking it on the ground, you can get your head up before pulling on it? Yeah you have the added variable of the ground and the ball being less likely to go to hand but it's not completely in the lap of the Gods where the ball goes when you hit it on the ground? It'll never be preferable to a stick pass assuming that both are on at the time, but I wouldn't agree with smugly dismissing it as "neanderthal stuff".

You seem uncomfortable with this thread and the idea that some people don't think hurling is at is absolute pinnacle at same the time that your own team are enjoying success, you keep focussing on a small subset of the points being made, ground hurling, attendances, examples of Limerick's play, and trying to use them as means to dismiss the overall theme of the thread. Yet we are over 600 posts in, a number of which ironically are from you where you do acknowledge there are problems with the game that need to be addressed, it is clear that it is a topic that is worth discussing and it is not about any one team despite your claims to the contrary

Sunny Disposition

I never really liked ground hurling to be honest, always seemed to be praised too much, there were few people who were really good at it.

But there is no role for it now, because possession is so important, territory isn't really important at all because the scoring area is massive. And the game we now have is much poorer than what we once had.

I don't think this is an anti-Limerick thread at all. Kilkenny, Galway and Clare were all very close to Limerick last year, and if any one of those had won the All Ireland all the same problems would be in the game.

evolvingtipperary101

...

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120485309#Comment_120485309

Just insist that both hands are on the hurl for a tackle then penalise any charging

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120490897#Comment_120490897

The poster in question was not talking about striking the ball on the ground he was talking about swinging wild into players "have any of these lads been on the end of a flaking before"

We all know what he meant was the days when shure if you didn't get the ball you got a hand or a leg so win win.

The thread was not set up to debate if hurling has problems. It told us straight out that hurling has a problem that definitely needs fixing.

I think rules need enforcing better but a lot of this thread isn't about addressing problems it's about making hurling look like it did when lads were young because they don't like new tactics.

Lack of ground hurling is not "a problem in the game". Calling dodgy hand passing a Limerick problem is just bitterness.

Like when Windy said something intelligent I responded in kind.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491235#Comment_120491235

So many times in a match I see fans shocked their wrapped up forward didn't get a free when in fact he ran into the defender. It's the hurling version of diving when you think about it.

Lol the game & players have become so good that it’s become the problem 😂

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491109#Comment_120491109

If one of those counties won the All Ireland instead the problems might be the same but it's worth asking if they would have been raised on a discrete thread. Chances are we'd be celebrating "Cody's greatest achievement", "Henry's sprinkling of stardust", or "Lohan showing that fcuker Davy". Doubt very much this discussion would be happening in its current form at least. Look at the turgid muck of the mid 1990s and we constantly read how great it was just because different teams won.

Freneys Treasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491297#Comment_120491297

"The thread was not set up to debate if hurling has problems. It told us straight out that hurling has a problem that definitely needs fixing" - Over 600 posts in and you are still struggling with how the OP was written? In any case, it's not unusual for the starting point of a debate to be an authoritative statement and that doesn't usually stop people debating it 

"I think rules need enforcing better but a lot of this thread isn't about addressing problems it's about making hurling look like it did when lads were young because they don't like new tactics." - most posters do not seem to expect or want a return to hurling of yester year; ground hurling being a lost art has inevitably mentioned in a thread about how hurling has changed over the years but there have only been a couple of posts in the entire thread where people suggested it should be used more or rules changed to bring it back. In fact the hurling of the 70s/80s/90s seems to be brought up more by those who have a problem with the premise of the thread than anyone else. Anyway aren't people entitled to not be enamoured by how these new tactics have changed how the game is played when the tactics are facilitated by the rule breaking you mention?

"Calling dodgy hand passing a Limerick problem is just bitterness" - A lot of posters have been at pains to point out it is not unique to Limerick to try to curtail Limerick posters dipping into the thread and claiming an anti-Limerick bias to the posting. Last year I would have thought Cork were worse for throwing and this year it is clear that all teams are now throwing the ball a lot, why wouldn't they when the rules are not being enforced?

Looking at just the first couple of pages these are most of the issues raised by posters 

• Long range shooting/ball composition/weight
• Uncontested shooting
• "Overuse" of the handpass
• Illegal handpassing
• Too easy to score/lost arts of defending
• Sporadic nature of the game/decrease in time that ball is in play
• Rucks
• Spare hand
• Steps
• Charging
• Hyperbole over mediocre games/lack of criticism
• Lack of regulation on bas dimensions

It would be great if posters like you could keep these in my mind when trying to claim that this thread is simply full of posters who want ground hurling and hate Limerick 

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491853#Comment_120491853

A few of the Limerick posters (not all) seem to think they own hurling because all references to hurling and it's rules is always directed towards Limerick. 😒

It's a very simplistic attitude that seems to believe that any change will endanger Limerick and they're are the guardians of their team. Hahaha Or any criticism of the game as a spectacle is a criticism of Limerick... 😂

The hurler on the ditch has stated that any rule changes won't make a difference to Limerick's dominance. That's any sensible GAA person's attitude. The best team is the best team. There's more to hurling than rules. There's this thing called the players and management. The rules are the same for everyone. Every team/players performs within rules.

Apparently people are incapable of assessing the rules and the spectacle of the game and it's all tied to one team...

😂

The ignore button is a great job!

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491853#Comment_120491853

I don't reply to every single post on here because I don't have a problem with what's said or have nothing to add.

I reply mostly to the ones I think are talking shte.

On your points well I think there is no such thing as "overuse" of the hand pass. I much prefer looking at intelligent play over smacking it long. I love watching teams play through the lines.

"Lost art of defending" seems odd when I'm watching 1 of the 2 greatest back 6 I think the game has ever seen.

We should have a strict bas size and ball. Again I never had anything to add there.

Having a problem with media hyperbole is only a problem if you think the current game is mediocre which I don't.

I think rucks are nothing new and neither are charging or steps but they are painted often as a "new" problem.

To sum up I don't think the game has any more or less problems than it ever had so I will challenge any talk of some sort of decline as rose tinted shte which is what I believe it to be.

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491979#Comment_120491979

Your posts seem to indicate a fondness of ‘smelling yourself’ if I may say so.

I feel anybody who doesn’t see that there are problems in hurling is not really in touch.

Personally I see games with scores like 1-29 to 26 pts to be a borefest of epic proportions.

There are a lot of those type of games recently and don’t bore us with stats.

Fair play to Limerick if they keep winning Championships, have no problem with that.

One might say that the so called ‘possession game ‘ is now all the rage, but it’s as boring as hell

and that’s what we are discussing here.

Not Limerick, not Kilkenny, just the game itself as it seems obvious from the engagement here that

there is a genuine issue that needs discussion about the attractiveness of the game in its full compass.

rjoe90

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492053#Comment_120492053

What issues are in hurling at the minute?

puzl

The rules need to reflect the game that's played. If we want a game to flow and not have "niggly frees" and "stop-starty matches" then change the rules to reflect what we want.

As it stands right now the rules seem to change on any given day. Handpass, tackle, black card....whatever, it doesn't matter really.

For example, If the rule the handpass to be a "clear striking action" but we only blow for the really obvious ones to let the game flow....then maybe the rule should change to require "any open palmed strike" and now we get a flowing game and a better chance for consistency.

The status quo right now is a bunch of rules that are very difficult to implement and get ignored when the knockout games come around.

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492161#Comment_120492161

1. Lot of games not attractive to watch
2. Way too easy to score points…usually by specialised free takers.
3. Lack of goals and goal attempts
4. Lack of player on player contests
5. Charging with the ball in hand
6. Lack of enforcement of number of steps taken
7. Way too many ‘rucks’ with 7 or 8 players poking at the ball to attempt to get ball in hand
8. Too much emphasis on ‘possession of the ball’ by teams
9. Field perhaps too crowded for the ‘modern game’
10. Size of the hurleys currently used and adherence to official measurements.

Theres a few to be going along with……

rjoe90

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492313#Comment_120492313

1. That is your opinion, I find the standard and the way each team tries to play makes for a far better spectacle.
2. Modern day players are now more skilful, however it is the same for each team.
3. I don’t have the stats off hand but I am sure the number of goals scored last year hasn’t been reduced significantly.
4. Not sure what you mean here.
5. Disagree with this.
6. Agree, think the refs are far too inconsistent on calling steps.
7. This has always been the case.
8. Not sure this is a bad thing?
9. So you would make the pitch bigger? Can’t say I’ve ever heard this complaint before.
10. How on earth is the size of the Hurley an issue in the current game?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492053#Comment_120492053

This thread in a nutshell.

Anyone not in the circle jerk is clueless.

No debate about if there are problems only patting each other on the back about how right ye all are.

High scoring being boring is not the "fact" you think it is.

The possession game being more boring than long hail Mary stuff is not the "fact" you think it is.

Nevin Parsnipp

Excellent and well reasoned post...has nobody mentioned the number of players on the team I would support 13 aside given the increase in fitness and equipment ...also restrict scoring from outside the 50 meter lines.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492243#Comment_120492243

Too much pressure on refs to "let the game flow". If we want rules implemented correctly people will have to put up with a bit of not flowing games til the players cop on.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492374#Comment_120492374

Restricting scores from outside 50 will probably just lead to a blanket defense on the 50.

Another good thing about 13 players is it makes fielding a team a tiny bit easier which is becoming a problem in some places

rjoe90

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492391#Comment_120492391

Let them enter 13 a side competitions then. Wouldn’t change the 15 aside personally If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492361#Comment_120492361

Your posts seem to indicate, to use boxing parlance, you would prefer to see 10 rounds of tipping around the ring

ducking and diving, nipping in, dancing scoring points and your opponent doing the same…..

I would contend that the vast majority of us would not fancy a solid diet of that.

I would contend that the more attractive spectacle would be if both boxers went full in all guns blazing.

Would make for a better spectacle I would contend.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492503#Comment_120492503

What teams are not going in all guns blazing ?

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492537#Comment_120492537

Not interested in discussing teams, hombre, let’s stick to the topic, the game of hurling…..m’kay?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492603#Comment_120492603

Well you claim teams are not going all guns blazing.

That's not what I saw in the championship last year.

Maybe don't say stuff you can't back up m'kay.

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492615#Comment_120492615

Teams, dude …… what are we talking about ‘tag teams’, last I heard boxing was an individual sport….m’kay?

Maybe not put your foot in it, sahib.

rjoe90

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492615#Comment_120492615

Agreed

Just because Limerick are ahead of the others, it doesn’t mean other teams aren’t going all guns blazing.