Hurling- what’s gone wrong and where do we go from here.

PeggyShippen

Nobody is talking about 'dumb' pulling on the ball except you. Did you ever see John Fenton or John troy? I don't you have. You can pass a ball 20 or 30 yards to a guy om the ground.. look at sideline cuts man. The next development on the sidelines is moving the ball accurately on the ground by the guy receiving the sideline pass. Use your noggin. Its obvious effective ground hurling will reappear ...probably sooner than you realise.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044968#Comment_120044968

A sideline ball is a very different thing because nobody can tackle you.

Game moves on. Using a fella like Troy who played 25 years ago is pointless.

Davys Fits

Trying to convince a Limerick hurling fan that theres a problem with the handpass in hurling is like telling an Argentine soccer fan that theres an issue with diving in soccer. They are not interested as everything seems perfect when your on top.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120041174#Comment_120041174

I am, you're quoting me while shiteing on about banning the handpass, You're the only person who brought up banning the handpass.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120046530#Comment_120046530

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120040787#Comment_120040787

Didn't quote anyone.

Sunny Disposition

It is interesting (to me anyway) that criticism of the current game gets dismissed as people looking to turn the clock back to the 80s or 90s.

It’s not really much of an argument.

It’s been a trend in hurling commentary for a while.

Looking forward to the 2023 season

I’d say it’s down to management & tactics to over come the problem’s hurling is facing.

The game always evolves so let it flow

Problem’s that can & need addressing are increasing attendances, respect for referee’s & keep the club game growing.

Realt Dearg Sec

Falling attendances and the problems with how the game is played are not separate issues.

Davys Fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120047085#Comment_120047085

Its the 'let it flow' attitude thats the problem. At some stage a reset is required or the game descends into a farcical foul a second game and its not far off that now. The 2022 Munster Final was hailed as the greatest in decades and a lot of that was down to the refs decision to 'let if flow'. Anyone who thinks that should continue is deluded and short sighted.

FintanMcluskey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120047201#Comment_120047201

Are attendances falling?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120047259#Comment_120047259

When I say let it flow I mean let the tactics, management systems, defensive & attacking strategies develop naturally.

What’s hot now is the short hand passing & ability to score effectively from your own half. In 2 or 3 or even 5 year’s time there’ll be something else that will take over or evolve from those.

If they keep tampering with rules & some stuff suggested here your just going to encounter another set of problems.

sometimes the right thing to do is step back & let it happen.

Sunny Disposition

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120047442#Comment_120047442

i would often have agreed with you, but I think things are a bit different at the moment.

Because of the current ball and the fact that there has is no regulation of hurleys, the scoring zone is just massive now, it’s about 2/3rds of the field.

Given that, I can’t see how, at the higher levels, hurling won’t always be hugely focused on possession unless changes are made.

I think the problems are more fundamental than just tactical fads that will be made obsolete when someone tries something new.

While nothing has really changed since the thread started, at least people are talking about the issues now.

Davys Fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120047442#Comment_120047442

Im not suggesting stopping evolution even if that was possible but the rules are being broken. You cant just ignore that and call it evolution.

PeggyShippen

The Munster final was the game of the year. I'm sorry but it was a 'let it flow game' . Change the rules so that type of game is played more often. I'm all for clamping down on throwing and steps but I'm all for more tackling and harder hits aswell. The days of the light forward diving and getting a handy frees are gone and thank God. The All Ireland was reffed well except for the throws and Walters 11 step shalom with the ball in his paw.

Freneys Treasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120048300#Comment_120048300

Indeed the final was refereed very well except for the small matter of the team whose approach to the game is based upon illegal handpassing when under pressure somehow escaped being penalised even once for the dozens of throws they committed while going on to win by two points. That's the refereeing to strive for alright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120048043#Comment_120048043

What rules are being broken?

flasher0030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049650#Comment_120049650

Why do say its illegal handpassing. How do you know it's a throw. If there is there is a mili-second where there is the tiniest fraction of a gap between the ball and hand, does that not count as a legitimate handpass.

I just googled to see what the position is. Came across this - albeit 12 years ago. Maybe the overall context has changed since:-

“The ball must be released and struck with a definite striking action of the hand,” declared Daly – as if to say simple as that. “So the pop, or the sling, or the throw, or whatever way you want to describe it, is not allowed. It must be released and then struck, so there should be clear daylight between the ball and the hand, so that you see it being struck.

There are so many subjective elements there - how much clear daylight is needed, what does it mean by needs to be seen to be struck. Presumably means seen by the ref. How is the ref going to know if there is 1 milimetre or 1 inch between the ball and hand. If the ball is 1 milimetre away from the hand, it is regarded as being released. And then if contact is made again, surely it is regarded as then being struck again. I know it's all a bit technical, but you cannot just accuse the team of illegal handpassing - you do not know that is the case.

PeggyShippen

We've been around and around on the handpass already...many times over the years. There has to be an obvious gap between the hand and the ball and the ref should blow a free ( indirect would be sufficient) every time. At the moment in the white heat of battle a ref is not going to pull Mike Casey for a throw to Nicky Quaid . The consequences are too high and the ref will get lambasted. Mike Casey does the 'extended arm and release' ..no striking of the ball. Will o Donoghue does the ' round house sling' ..got penalised against Galway. Tom Morrissey does just a regular throw. Kyle Hayes does a proper handpass. Declan Hannon does a throw whilst looking at the ref in an 'I dare you' mode. I love limerick as a team..theyve kicked the arses of the establishment for a long time now and they'd still win if they adjusted their handpasses ..they are a significantly better team with better players ,passing and coaching but they foul the ball. Kilkenny traditionally take the pee with steps. From DJ through power through Walter. Colin 10 step Fennelly is the most blatant bug again it's a reffing issue.

Large bottle small glass

To quote Robert de Niro in Ronin whenever there is any doubt there is no doubt

blackcard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049820#Comment_120049820

If there is only 1 mm gap between the hand and ball, then you can't see a definite sticking action so a free should be awarded. Better still, change the rule to there should be a 50mm gap between the hand and ball during a handpass. I don't think anyone is going to get too excited if the gap is only 25mm but it should eliminate all those instances where you don't know if it is a handpass or throw.

flasher0030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049924#Comment_120049924

ok. Define precisely what a definite striking action is. Not just some general comment - but a definition that leaves no doubt to referees as to what is correct and what is not. To me, it is subjective and cannot be defined precisely.

blackcard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120050548#Comment_120050548

I agree with you, you cannot define a definite striking motion. That is why I state that at some stage during a handpass, there should be a 50mm gap between the hand and the ball. This should eliminate the blatant thrown pass. To me at some stage during a legitimate handpass, the hand has to move backwards to give momentum to the ball. Now people could argue as to whether the gap is 25mm or 50mm just as they can argue at the moment as to whether a player has taken 5 or 6 steps or a legitimate 4 steps. However in both cases, a team cannot complain if a free is given against them for taking 10 steps or if it unclear as to whether there was a gap between the ball and the hand. If they do complain, I would say to them to learn how to pass the ball so that no one is in any doubt as to the legitimacy of the handpass. There were very few issues with the handpass until the last 10 years, there is no reason why there should be in future. Teams throw the ball for a reason and that is because there is an advantage in doing this. It is quicker and more accurate. For what it is worth, I think Limerick would still be the best team.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119476322#Comment_119476322

Nail on the head here! The biggest issue with hurling, and the GAA in general, is money. Its head in the sand stuff by the GAA. There should be a set budget for each county team in Ireland, equal for all counties. Distributed by the GAA from the central coffers. Wealthy donors and sponsors have changed the GAA and are doing big damage IMO, although their intentions are good. The county game is becoming more like NFL franchises at this stage. Time for the GAA to admit that we crossed over the amateur/professional threshold years ago and put regulations in place around the money.

Davys Fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049657#Comment_120049657

Wiill you read the previous posts.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120052251#Comment_120052251

All I read is complaining about a stupid hand pass rule.

i propose let them throw it so at inter county level.

Id agree It’s a rule that get’s abused so much & so much inconsistency from referee’s that the only option is to let them throw it.

PeggyShippen

We are lucky to live in a Capitalist state. There is zero chance of all counties getting the same amount of money. That's a complete non runner. The disparity in the sizes of counties is huge. Cork has more clubs than Connacht but you want to see them getting the same money as Leitrim. I agree that professionalism has creeped in . I'm just surprised that the players haven't spoke up more. They are happy to see a guy coming in and getting paid to train them while they sacrifice their time and energy..especially grating in the club scene

Realt Dearg Sec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120052568#Comment_120052568

That's easily the worst possible solution. Throwing it is the problem, you don't solve it by letting everyone do it by rule ffs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120053409#Comment_120053409

Really? Why

What would be so bad about being allowed to throw it?

some of the suggestions I’ve read here like not being allowed score from inside your own half or only allowed 2 or 3 hand passes would bury hurling as a spectacle.

Realt Dearg Sec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120053436#Comment_120053436

If I can throw the ball why not just do it like a quarterback in American football? Just overarm toss it as hard as I can into a players chest? It wouldn't be a hurling skill but it would be legal. It's that what you want hurling to look like?

Even without that, if you somehow legislate to not let people do it, the problem is that throwing instead of hand passing requires neither skill not physicality, is ugly, and rewards the person who doesn't execute any skill or physicality by giving them an easy way to maintain possession. Why would you legalize that?

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120052705#Comment_120052705

I'm only advocating for a fixed budget for the county teams. The funding for the club game is a different story. Give each county €100k each per calendar year and that's their lot to run the county team. It would level things up and get rid of the professional managers in the game.

zetecescort

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120053704#Comment_120053704

Grand but they can't control the payments to managers, how would they police this?

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120054782#Comment_120054782

They can but they won't. It's as simple as setting a limit per km travelled and per hour of time as expenses. If the revenue ever decided to crack down on the GAA things would get sorted sharpish.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120047201#Comment_120047201

Attendance is not down.

Davys Fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120053436#Comment_120053436

OMG and you think throwing would be a spectacle. This is the laziest solution Ive heard. Akin to allowing them throw the ball forward in rugby in order to avoid any debate over forward passes.

arctictree

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120053704#Comment_120053704

I'd go the opposite and give weaker counties more money than the stronger ones. At the moment some counties are at a permanent disadvantage due to size/population. Also, I think players should have more freedom of choice regarding what county they can play for. I'm thinking here of the talented hurler stuck in Louth....

Realt Dearg Sec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120057552#Comment_120057552

If you're worried about the weaker counties, then letting players leave to play for another county is not going to help them, everyone good will get hoovered up by a few very strong counties.

Greasy Paw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117362710#Comment_117362710

Ah go away. Noel Skehan used to have a hurley the size of a Frying Pan, when he was playing with Kilkenny, and he retired about 40 years ago.

Greasy Paw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049650#Comment_120049650

Yes and TJ Reid clearly fouled the ball in the build up to the second goal. You are from Clare and it is showing.

Greasy Paw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044793#Comment_120044793

That is really. There was plenty schmozzels in games long ago.

Greasy Paw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120041291#Comment_120041291

Interestingly you claim Limerick should not have won the All Ireland and then you point out that Walter fouled the ball in the build up to the first goal and as it is even more clear that TJ Reid fouled the ball in the build up to the second one, I find hard to see how your contention can stand up. In fact you appear to be all over the place.

Greasy Paw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119440498#Comment_119440498

Spot on. Some brilliant games last year. All this nonsense about throwing the ball. Cork brought this into the game over twenty years ago and every team Davy ever trained was infected with it.

Greasy Paw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118320862#Comment_118320862

What about there was a limit of 40,000 that year. there was 83,000 people at the final last year and thousands would have gone, if could get tickets.

Greasy Paw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117458792#Comment_117458792

Gullane plays with a very short hurley yet he points from all over the shop.

leath_dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429473#Comment_120429473

Skehan was a goalie and had a ridiculous hurley bas for tthe time. Ug would bd dwarfed by the average goalie 's hurley today. Truth be told, many of today's outfield hurleys would't be a lot smaller than what Skehan used to use

Freneys Treasure

https://twitter.com/HurlerD/status/1641745017000566784

Good summary of where we're at with the modern game

blackcard

Award 4 points for a goal to try and encourage teams to score them

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430286#Comment_120430286

For some reason point scoring has become too easy an option for a four point goal to make a difference to a team's strategy I would say.

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429622#Comment_120429622

Shouldn't have been a problem getting tickets since they ended up on public sale in the end.

Davys Fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430279#Comment_120430279

So true. People will vote with their feet. There was only 2 or 3 decent games in last year c'ship and that was when the refs just said let it flow. Anyone with an ounce of foresight knows that letting it flow doesnt work long term.

cms88

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120057634#Comment_120057634

The option of letting lads from the stronger counties play with them is a better one. But with a limited of course. It was something i was very against but for the likes of Kerry etc who have a small pick as it is 1/2 outside players could help.