Hurling- what’s gone wrong and where do we go from here.

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120558908#Comment_120558908

I accept that, in principle, a larger set of games gives a truer reflection. But my point is that the style of play which has given rise to the change in the number of goals scored has been embedded for several years. You are very likely to encounter the same evidence.

callaway92

Fair - but I went back as far as 1997 there - I think years is a fair amount of time to look at, and things haven’t changed since then (just as far as Munster goes anyway)

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559050#Comment_120559050

Fair enough. Between 1950-99 eight teams failed to score a goal in an All Ireland final. In the following 23 finals this has already been exceeded. Reasonably to assume, in current trends, that it will be (conservatively?) maybe 20 teams who don't score a goal in the final by 2049. A crude superficial measure but (if you accept it) telling surely?

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559118#Comment_120559118

The initial tweet/posts referenced less goals per game now. I can't get my head around your post above; sorry.

I think a big outlier from the 'not going for goals' is the fact that foul numbers are going up consistently. Placed balls are being scored from sometimes the shooting teams' own 45m, and ball-in-play time has gone down because of this.

From my own weird analytical head, I'd love to know the ball-in-play time match-on-match the last 50 years and compare the goals per minute with ball-in-play now compared to historically. Just from my own guess, I'd say matches likely had more ball-in-play time, so therefore if there was historically more goals scored, it would lead to making sense.

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559212#Comment_120559212

Well, my post is in fact a goals per game measure (one game, the All Ireland final) compared across years. It is a goals per game reference without any potential distortion of extra/weaker teams or dead rubbers in the competition.

It's in essence the two best in-form teams in the competition (or two of them at least) each year and the evidence is clear that there are fewer teams scoring goals in the All Ireland final - possibly twice as many as in the second half of the 20th century. I think that's a significant number and the measure counts for something because at least the teams in finals across the years can be considered relative equals. Further down the competition you are more likely to get distortions (I think).

A deep dive throws up potentially many inequalities and anomalies. For example an average (goals per game) is an attractive popular easy measure but is deeply flawed as it hides skewing of figures by, for example, over-matched teams (in a bigger championship) and the potentially distortive outcome of individual games.

If you took Tipperary-Clare and Kilkenny-Galway, Cork-Waterford, Limerick-Clare recently you'd have ten goals i.e. 2.5 per game which sounds okay but it doesn't tell you that four of the eight teams failed to score a goal. I think an absolute measure like that is helpful. Such an outcome would not be my understanding of how hurling was in the more distant past (than last year or the year before).

The question you raise in the last post as to why it's happening is another matter. I'm just trying to establish if it is in fact an issue. Some claim it's not but it doesn't feel like that sometimes.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559295#Comment_120559295

Potentially that deep dive can be a fact or an anamoly like you said.

However, finals can be weird - i.e., the Champions League. In the last 4 years, one team failed to score. In the 8 finals before that, both teams scored.

1-0, 1-0, 1-0, 2-0, 3-1, 4-1, 1-1, 3-1, 4-1, 2-1, 1-1, 3-1,

Trends like that for one-off-matches (like AI Finals), I generally don't read a huge amount into - Can only read into what's there, and it's hard to say whether it's coincidence or if it's literally all down to style.

randd1

On the goals, I don't feel like goals are worth what they used to be, if you get my drift.

Teams can equalize the value of a goal in less than 90 seconds with points form inside their own half. Point scoring has become too easy, and for me it's limited the impact a goal can have.

A goal always felt like a huge moment in a game, nowadays it feels more like a bit of breathing space as opposed to landing a body blow on the opponent. Scoring a goal in a match that's tight and 0-13 apiece feels more impactful than in an open game where it's 0-25 apiece with points from all angles.

The possession/running game, which is facilitated by the abandonment of handpass instead of the throw, the over-sized bas and the ignoring of steps/barging, allows for this spree of point scoring. For me, while the possession/running game might be a bit smarter in terms of playing, it robs a bit of the contest out of hurling*.

And with scores become easier to pick off the need for goals, and their impact, has diminished.

(*I also think that's why people are so tolerant, in a way, of the pulling/dragging/bottling up/spare hands (or intensity as they call it), it seems to be the only real contest left in hurling, even if it's illegal. For me the contest between players is what gives hurling excitement, remove that via the possession/running game and then the open fouling that gives you that contest, even if it's clearly against the rules, becomes then the excitement that drives hurling, so fans forgive it)

Brendan Bendar

The bottom line is, and cutting out all the chaff and packaging is that a majority of meaningfull games played in recent years have ended up in scores like 0-27 to 1-23

Usually around 30 to 40% of the points are from frees.

If anyone thinks that this trend is the way forward for the game,all I can say is what’s your challenge?

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559337#Comment_120559337

Not sure the Champions League final is comparable. In those finals between 1971-90 (20 of them) at least one team failed to score in all bar two I think. There has been a long history of these games being cagey affairs. Teams not scoring is/was not unexpected.

In hurling there were nearly always goals in finals and this is more notable because goals were not strictly necessary in order to win unlike soccer where goals were, at some level, every team's objective.

letsseehere14

Rant time. There are a few things wrong with the game. Undeniably. I think some of the suggestions on the handpass will help, but coupled with that the loose hand tackle needs refereeing. Steps is a problem too. All fixable. The split season makes sense but I think in the cold light of day, 3 more weeks will not kill the club game in any way.

There is another two problems though.

Scheduling/Exposure to the masses

Today we have two dead rubber provincial football finals on RTE. Understandable why they had to show these. I think RTE would rather have shown Cork v Tipp instead of either of these as it would get a larger audience. But they probably had to show the football because its a final. All 4 teams playing today are guaranteed another 3 matches in the championship though. There is no real element of danger to these games, They mean nothing. Clare v Limerick or Tipp v Cork mean something because its practically do or die. If the GAA are going to insist on limited matches for RTE then RTE should be allowed to choose the best games even if there is a provincial final. Waterford may bow out of the championship next weekend, behind a paywall. Gaago is clunky to use, the android app is glitchy. €12 per game is too much also, €8 would have been plenty with a 3 game bundle at €20.

Structure

The Leinster hurling championship is falling off the rails. The games are dead because, well outside of Galway and Kilkenny the quality is so low that even when these two play it takes on a challenge match feel. Attendances reflect this.

I read somewhere else that Wexford have played 15 games against top championship teams from 2019 till now and only won 2. Both against Kilkenny. I took this piece of info and looked backwards all the way to 2008 where I think the oldest current players made debuts. Wexford and Dublin across 15 seasons combined have only managed 7 results against Munster opposition over 34 matches! 6 wins and a draw.

This at a time when both teams have had recent peaks in standards. Id also note that none of these 7 results came against a Munster team actually going well on a given year. 7 results in 34 games and 15 years across 2 counties. Thats a result for each every 4 years. Yet, while obviously cut free from the top 7 and being only 8th and 9th best teams now, and possibly getting worse, one of these two will progress to probably a quarter final! To top this all off, Offaly by means of beating Kerry, Laois, Down and Kildare are into the preliminary quarter final and will be joined by Kerry Laois or Carlow while one of Clare, Cork, Tipp and Limerick will be out.

The good get punished while the average get rewarded. What good is Offaly v Cork or Carlow v Dublin going to be? Its a pander by the GAA to be able to say they are giving the weaker counties a fair go but in reality it adds nothing to the competition. The answer is to stop sending millions to Dublin to be spent on football and actually invest in hurling in a tier of counties that need to improve. Kildare, Down, Carlow, Antrim, Laois, Offaly, Westmeath, Antrim, and to a lesser extent Wexford and Dublin (hurling) all need serious attention to get them to a competitive level. 1 game a year wont fix it, but investment of time, coaching resources and money might.

At this stage I think the league needs to be shortened to 4 games with a final, groups of 5 seeded 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B and so on. Play provincials off as straight knockout and have 1 group of 8 for the All Ireland with relegation to Joe Mc for the bottom team. Top 4 into semis. This year it would be:

Limerick, Clare, Cork, Tipp, Waterford, Kilkenny, Galway and Wexford (based on last year) with Dublin in Joe Mc. People will complain but Wexford and Dublin have zero chance of winning the All Ireland. A plague would have to hit the other counties for that to happen.

I know it sounds harsh and people will say awe but Wexford have the hurlers, look at 2019, its just injuries, or fitness or a free taker or whatever. They reached the 2019 Leinster final by only beating Carlow. Tipp were 10 points the better team in the semi final if it was refereed correctly, they played the 2nd half with 14 men, had a perfectly good goal denied in the 1st and 2nd halves and still won by 2! If it was the case that Wexford deserve to stay at the top then what the hell have they been doing since 2008 because they're no better now than they were then. All thats going to happen if we keep the current setup is Wexford and Dublin will fall further and further behind.

Finally, how were Dublin able to request their game be played in Croke Park? Is there a clear and obvious reason for this?

Croke Park isnt their home pitch. Parnell Park was always going to be big enough for that game? That game cost the GAA and as a result cost the Leinster Council money that could have gone to clubs and counties. How Dublin get away with it, especially in football where so called neutral games are played there and their footballers get to use the same dressing room every time, get onto the pitch when others cant, warm up at the Hill 16 end, get Hill 16 season tickets, get sole occupancy of the Hill for many games. It is ridiculous. I hope I can be proven wrong here because it is blatantly unfair.

getoutadodge

Nice to see Cusack give both RTE and the GAA a kick up the arse last night about the whole GAAGO debacle. The presenter (wtf happened to Des Cahill....was he shafted by the wimminz cabal?) tried unsuccessfully to deflect.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120568549#Comment_120568549

Des Cahill was an appalling SG presenter. Jacqui Hurley and Joanne Cantwell, while being no Michael Lyster and having a lot of room for improvement are both a massive improvement on Cahill.

RTE in general are bringing though a very poor standard of sports presenter. But by all means believe he was shafted by the "wimminz".

Why Cahill said he stepped down:

"The reason I want a change is very straightforward- I want to go to live games again!

“It's been a privilege to host The Sunday Game for the past 15 seasons, but I miss the sense of fun and anticipation as you make your way to a match, the feeling of tension and excitement, the roar of the crowd.

“I can't wait to experience that again when I'm fronting Saturday and Sunday Sport live from some of the most iconic venues in the country".

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120568613#Comment_120568613

In other words ‘Dezzie likes de partie’

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120568549#Comment_120568549

Yeah, it was funny watching her reaction in case someone might be able to infer something negative about rugby, and even Donal Óg hoping they'll win the World Cup.

Can you imagine a rugby panel ever feeling the need to mention hurling never mind wishing it all the best? Very strange exchange.

YabaDabaDooley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120568613#Comment_120568613

Yes i agree Cahill was an awful host of the Sunday Game. I like the two woman especially Joanne Cantwell.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120570930#Comment_120570930

Agree on the sliotar

Also - the amount of frees given these days has almost tripled since even just the mid 90s, adding a massive percent to existing scores with handy additions

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120568549#Comment_120568549

Cusack was talking utter garbage but hey he's making the headlines today a nd that's what matters to him. On the one hand he's good with gaago(which I agree with) otoh he wants rte to also show the games! That makes no sense .

Realt Dearg Sec

I took him to mean that gaago should primarily be for matches that otherwise won't be on tv, but they're putting high profile matches on and losing out on a huge audience as a result, in the name of pumping the numbers for gaago. No way cork and tipp should be behind a paywall while the national broadcaster shows our former colonial masters dressing up in stupid costumes and poncing about.

YabaDabaDooley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120571325#Comment_120571325

Yea that sounds about right.

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120571325#Comment_120571325

But gaago couldn't Possibly work if it was only showing game's that wouldn't normally be on tv. As for the "poncing about " as you put it that has zero to do with it. No Cusack was doing his usual stirring it and of course as usual was not challenged by the rte presenter.

YabaDabaDooley

I think GAA GO would be ok if it showed a few upcoming football matches in the championship when there will be so many games every weekend of the groups in Sam and Tailteann. RTE won't be able for all the games so it might suit some people to see their own county's this way. It's also good for people outside of Ireland who want to see the games. But i just can't agree with putting recent big Munster hurling games behind a pay wall.

getoutadodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120571325#Comment_120571325

That's how I read it. Cusack may be one of the chateratti always seeking profile... but his point on the paywall nonsense for recent games is valid.

Realt Dearg Sec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120571383#Comment_120571383

Why couldn't it work? Gaago has worked perfectly fine for the last 8 years with only the overseas audiences, which they still have. Is the objective to make games available, or to make a profit? If it's the latter they should just say that and we can have an honest discussion instead of pretending there's some higher objective at work here. As for the poncing about "as I put it" I dunno how you would characterise it but that was the most charitable phrase I could think of

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120571863#Comment_120571863

I take your point but I just feel Cusack is another one of those pundits who's always wise after the event. He goes on about viewers missing out on the cut and thrust of a Tipp v cork game but while last weekends game was great last years encounter was pure shite as were most of the round Robin games in Munster. Anyway as I've said before we should be grateful for all the options we have of seeing live matches these days.

fuinneamh

With all the talk of GaaGO and the paywall. Solution is simple for me, every alternate weekend is either football or hurling. Gives teams extra time to prepare, more time to market and digest games and also rids us of the need to wait half the sunday game for the hurling to start.

You might need more weekends in the summer from the club game but that shouldn't make a difference if every county adopted meaningful leagues throughout the year like they have in Dublin. If you've 11 league games over 20 week period a reduced championship of 3 group games and 3 knock out games over 10 weeks is not a bad season for club players.

evolvingtipperary101

John Mullane reckons if games are going behind paywalls and money is being made, the players should get a slice of the revenue.

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120572372#Comment_120572372

The split season won't allow that. They have to squeeze the games into a short timeframe because of the split season. I'd say in the end they will get rid of the League and start championship in February/March.

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120572715#Comment_120572715

He's not the brightest is he? The GAA receive revenue for the games that are free to air and aren't behind a paywall. Why differentiate?

Another point is that the GAA will probably make less than they did from Sky given that they have to pay for production costs and hope people subscribe. Yet I don't recall him calling for players to be paid out of the Sky money.

Should they receive money out of the gate receipts? In the case of money the GAA receive from RTE, profits from GAAGo, from tickets etc the players are the product but he only wants them to be paid out of money from GAAGo.

Should Waterford footballers not get paid?

A bizarre intervention by Mullane to say the least...

Lionel Fusco

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120572715#Comment_120572715

He's dead right they should they are the ones out earning that money.

Lionel Fusco

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120571325#Comment_120571325

Yeah I think that's what he was saying as well but once you take the decision to go PPV this was always going to happen the Munster championship is the GAAs most attractive product and from a business point of view that product is most likely to achieve more buys. Nobody will pay to watch Galway vs Westmeath or Wexford v Dublin or the nonsense one sided football finals that were on this weekend.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120573698#Comment_120573698

Agreed

It's the same with any sport. FAO the comment about the 'lower level' teams. It's the same in every sport - Cut size would be based off team standing surely; and if you're not featured on it, you're not paid.

Obviously that payment would be a taxable payment beyond their expenses.

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120573740#Comment_120573740

When you say it I presume you mean GAAGo?

To follow Mullane's point to its logical conclusion the players are the product and should get some of the revenue. Why don't they get money from gate receipts? It's bizarre that it is suggested that they should only get a share of the revenue from GAAGo.

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120572715#Comment_120572715

We have one of the largest most successful and well run amateur sports in the world and yet every so often someone throws out a suggestion like this that would probably f**k the whole thing up.

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120568930#Comment_120568930

It's a pity Jacqi hadn't the wherewithal or expertise to challenge donal og on some of his suggestions. EG there are 15 intercounty games this weekend involving 30 counties. How could rte show all of them? It's all very well in hindsight to say the Cork tipp match should have been shown because it was a great match but last years Cork tipp match was pure shite. She could also have challenged him on his views on the Tailteann cup by pointing out the sheer joy on the streets of Mullingar when Westmeath won.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120573797#Comment_120573797

Sorry ya, I meant GAA Go

For what it's worth, I completely agree that players should be getting money from gate receipts. Again, taxable income, but still should be there.

I actually think if players REALLY wanted to go deeper into it; for any players playing at a County level, contracts need to start becoming a thing. A girl I know that played County at a very high level had a falling out with her County board (about how another player was treated). She doesn't want to be involved with the County team anymore and yet they still use her imagery on their website etc. which causes frustration.

There's probably a gap in the market for an agent to that extent.

evolvingtipperary101

I think we're getting caught up in GAAGO too much. It's a problem especially for elderly people and people in the rural extremes.

But in terms of where Hurling is and where it needs to go - it's not high up on the agenda.

But there's obviously an attitude, entrenched, at RTE and within the GAA itself, that is seeing hurling suffer. Dynasties and clicks are being created at both organizations - from rugby to Gaelic football agendas - and let's face it, hurling counties that are too powerful within the org - and hurling is being left to suffer.

A director of hurling and a team of support/offices, at Croke Park, and at RTE, from one of the counties that is trying to break through - Westmeath/Kildare/Roscommon is needed. Someone who understands what these counties require.

Tipp Celtic Challenge team beat Laois 12-20 to 0-9 at the weekend - where is this game going?

I see the Dublin hurlers are now following the footballers into making Croke Park a home. It's ridiculous. Shouldn't be allowed to happen. Another unfair advantage of home games for a moneyed county. They'll be the next county to get double home games to start their year off. Down the line, it will be Cork, Dublin, Kilkenny, and Limerick getting all home games for their provincial campaigns, if this is allowed to continue.

Perhaps, a better idea, rather than trying to bring counties up to a level - we should break up the traditional and stronger counties into teams of four - more teams - not as strong a pick - and if you think Cork and Tipp is a good derby match - if you saw North Kilkenny v South Kilkenny, South Tipp v North Tipp or North Cork v South Cork, Rural Limerick v Urban Limerick - then you'd know what a derby is - Westmeath versus a North or South Kilkenny might be more of a game (certainly more of an attainable standard after a few years for the likes of Westmeath).

Lionel Fusco

https://twitter.com/MattShanahanTD/status/1655492923016855553?t=ODHsLscdx9d38blUnfyamg&s=19

At least the hurlers are no longer the most embarrassing thing to come out of Waterford.

Lionel Fusco

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120573904#Comment_120573904

A go away amateur my hole there are club managers on 30-40k a year county managers on close to 100k.

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575527#Comment_120575527

Why do I always get an image of a hillbilly when a poster starts with "" blah blah blah my hole "

Lionel Fusco

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575717#Comment_120575717

I don't know I can't help you with the weird images you get in your head.

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575717#Comment_120575717

Like this?

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120573955#Comment_120573955

Plenty of County Junior finals elicited sheer joy afterwards but was never considered an argument for televising them on RTÉ.

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120573152#Comment_120573152

Strange post to say that Mullane isn't the brightest on the basis of that comment. Paying of participants in any sport has never been an intellectual argument. It has generally only ever required the sense that there is excess money floating around and people with sufficient leverage to demand it.

When Waterford footballers have enough influence in the market then maybe they will get paid. But I doubt they'd be the starting point.

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120576735#Comment_120576735

You're showing your true attitude to the weaker counties now, what elitist rubbish!

evolvingtipperary101

The Kildare intermediate camogie team have expressed their disgust at their county board’s decision to withdraw them from the All-Ireland championship.

In an open letter to the county’s clubs released by the Gaelic Players Association, they have appealed to the units to convince the executive to reverse their decision, which the players were informed of last Friday via a WhatsApp message.

“This has caused great distress to us as a playing group and indeed anger,” the letter reads. “This is not only because this decision has been taken without our consent, but also because of the disrespect that has been shown in how the decision has been communicated to us.

“We want to be very clear. We want to represent Kildare to the best of our ability in the camogie championship. This is and has always been the case.” 

 The players explained that they had been in discussions with the county board about a charter to ensure situations such as not having access to showers and changing rooms after training would be a thing of the past.

“It had reached a stage where we informed the County Board Executive we would withdraw from the panel as a result of this mistreatment in hope that they would rectify these issues. At a recent meeting with them, we believed progress was made and that our season might be salvaged.” 

Calling on clubs to back them, they wrote: “If we don't make those changes now, the players who come after us will never forgive us.

“We are calling on you the clubs of Kildare to have your voices heard and support us the players during this time. The future of inter-county camogie in Kildare is at stake.

“We are not asking for the world. We're asking for the minimum standards that had been agreed to be put in place, through our squad charter, to be adhered to by our county board.”

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120577258#Comment_120577258

I never mentioned any counties. Just pointed out that excitement in the streets is not normally a deciding factor in the argument for televising a game. Yours was a silly argument.

Mantis Toboggan

Would hurling benefit by leaving the gaa and going solo?

Mad about baa baas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120577749#Comment_120577749

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120577749#Comment_120577749

Where would they play?

irelandrover

Wouldn't one of the big problems of paying the players is that player transfers would have to be allowed? I can't see hurling improving by giving the richest teams access to the best players

Lionel Fusco

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120577506#Comment_120577506

Yes but the reason they are sorted out in this fashion is precisely because they are not being paid for the work they do. Intercounty GAA players are the ones bringing in all this money but they are not getting a share of it due to the amateur ethos(don't laugh) of the GAA all the while managers and backroom teams are being paid all over the country.