Black people Racism in Workplace in Ireland

TomTomTim

KyussB wrote: »

It was referring to stripping down my own post that was originally long, before I posted it.

I was asking with an example of BLM and police killings, so that would limit it to the US. I'm not asking if the elite-level black folk, in positions of power, are subject to the same discrimination.

You seem ok with generalizing somewhat, right? So do you not think, generally, that black people in the US are victims of police violence, and that the BLM movement is a legitimate response to this?

This is almost as convoluted a question as can be. It's ironically generalized. There was a time no so long ago, when we were all saner, when we believed in common sense policies like taking things on a case by case basis, especially when so many cases exist. Do you know how easy it would be to completely flip the narrative? Show the world nothing but white victims of police, never report on African Americans, and suddenly you've an anti white narrative as plausible as BLM narratives. The reality is actually not that complex. People of all races in America, have at times suffered injustices at the hands of the police/state. If we're being frank, these injustices are a minorities of cases, that represent a minority of police. It's not "systemic", it's not "racism". I'd lay most of the blame on a two variables in most cases: paranoid police and resistance from "suspects".

Regardless of what any of us think, one simple truth is that there's no hard evidence that any police brutality in America against AAs is because of racism, no matter how much the world tries to convince us otherwise.

biko

Has the been any proven cases of racism in the Irish workplace?
Are there any cases before the courts with claims of racism in the workplace?
Have there been people sued? Companies sued?

KyussB

jmreire: Well, the movement is predicated on ending discrimination and later on particularly police violence towards black people - not about pedantic application of the movements name.

TomTomTim: I don't think an honest look at events and of the stats, allows discrimination against black people in the US to disappear, and for discrimination against white folk to be equivalently applicable - again, particularly when it comes to interactions with the police.

The only thing that would lend credibility to the idea that police brutality in the US has less to do with racism - is the general problem of excessive militarization of the police and general increase in police brutality. Which, demographically, does get doled out disproportionately to black folk.

Anyway. I was asking this stuff to get a better idea of peoples stance and narratives on race issues, so will let that US-related tangent die out shortly.

KyussB

biko wrote: »

Has the been any proven cases of racism in the Irish workplace?
Are there any cases before the courts with claims if racism in the workplace?
Have there been people sued? Companies sued?

Here are a few recent ones:

...
Despite the general awareness of racism in Ireland, the Workplace Relations Commission (WRC) continues to receive hundreds of racial discrimination and harassment complaints every year. The 2019 WRC annual report noted that race was the most common ground of referrals under the ES Acts that year, accounting for nearly one quarter of all referrals. Under the EE Acts, race was the ground of referral for over 10% submitted that year. The recently published 2020 WRC annual report notes that race was the ground accounting for nearly 17% of referrals under both the ES Acts and the EE Acts.
...

In one recent case heard before the WRC[1], a Brazilian national was awarded €15,000 for the effects of discrimination after her manager’s mother commented “of course, the Mother and the world is Brazilian. I hope your English is good”. The Adjudication Officer noted that the employer had not made any real effort to look into the incident and noted that there was no diversity policy in place.

In a separate case[2], a Brazilian national was awarded €10,000 in compensation after the Adjudication Officer determined that she had been harassed and discriminated against in the workplace. The employee gave evidence of multiple racially motivated comments directed towards her, which included “both of you go work on your English”, “what do you think I am speaking, Japanese?” and “I am Irish, you are a simple Brazilian and your English is s##t”.
...
Victor Kings Oluebube & CPL Solutions Ltd T/A Flexsource Recruitment[4]

The employer successfully relied on the statutory defence in this recent case. The employee, a Nigerian national, complained that he had been discriminated against and victimised by his employer, a recruitment agency. There was uncontested evidence that a colleague imitated the sounds of a monkey in front of the complainant, and made other derogatory and offensive racially motivated remarks. The employee reported the incidents to his manager, who undertook an investigation. The employee was not informed of the outcome of his complaint, or whether a disciplinary sanction had been imposed.
...

https://www.mhc.ie/latest/insights/employment-update-recent-decisions-on-racial-discrimination-in-the-workplace

KyussB

KyussB wrote: »

I'm being selective so that I can keep a focus on one thing.

Yes, it's focusing on excusing Black people, and BLM from everything. Hence, the repeated attempt to focus on the aspects that are external to Black people.

What bad things has the BLM movement done, that you view as being discreditable - especially relative to the police killings of black people? Why should the BLM movement - a reaction against systemic discrimination/violence against black people - be responsible for bringing people together (other than to fight the discrimination/violence), is it not the responsibility for those managing the systemically discriminatory police/legal/political/etc. systems to heal divisions?

Lot's of questions there... all point to the same thing. And in spite of my openly acknowledging the police brutality and systematic discrimination, you still push for more... Why? Because this is about excusing Black people from any responsibility for their situation, and projecting it all on to external factors.

BLM have orchestrated a destructive and divisive strategy pitting Black people and the white activists against everyone else. The rhetoric of BLM is two sided, from the perspective of being victims, but also the cries to burn the system down. Demanding punishment. Reparations. Furthering the divisions that exist, even to the point of pushing the White activists away.

It's not adjustments to the culture of Black people that's going to fix the problems in the US, so I don't understand the focus on that.

Ahh yes, because the aspects of Black led crime doesn't have any relevance. The aspects of drug abuse doesn't factor into it. The aspects of the breakdown of family units, single mothers, and the dropping out of education, don't factor into things... because advocates of BLM don't want to recognise that all these things are both part of Black culture, in addition to reactions to the racism that exists in the US. Victims are never responsible for what happens.

When we compare BLM as a civil rights movement, to civil rights movements that have existed on this island, morphing into something more extreme - they're pretty tame, really.

Tell that to the people killed in the autonomous zones, or those hurt in the riots. The destruction to property and everything else that went along with it.

They're not tame, and we would have seen worse had Covid not come along.

It's good that the violence/discrimination against black people are acknowledged, mind - tbh, the last pages of the thread had me wondering what slant posters had on that, which is part of why I'm asking.

The funny thing is that the last few pages, or the whole thread has acknowledged the racism and violence directed towards Black people.

The problem is that you're looking for a black/white situation. And before you object to that observation, read back over your leading questions and posts. Posters should completely accept Black people are victims of racism, and there are no mitigating circumstances for what happens. That's what you want to see.

However, the simple truth is that the world is not that simple. Racism is often a reaction to the behavior of others. Sure, it's often simply due to a difference in race, and an unfamiliarity with something "foreign" or different... but it can also be due to how that racial group behaves. The attention it seeks, and more importantly, how that racial group interacts with others.

I said something earlier that you dismissed, but it has relevance:

"The US cultural racism/discrimination of African Americans does not extend victimhood status to all African Americans equally, and even more importantly, to all Black people around the world. And that victim status even, if appropriate for some, is not an eternal status to be retained, nor should it be transferable to others, just because they share a skin colour."

biko

KyussB wrote: »

Here are a few recent ones:

Excellent, this is what we need. Facts instead of feelings.
This is the most important line;

Despite the general awareness of racism in Ireland, the Workplace Relations Commission (WRC) continues to receive hundreds of racial discrimination and harassment complaints every year.

as it quantifies the complaints.

They actually have a report
https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/publications_forms/corporate_matters/annual_reports_reviews/annual-report-2019.pdf

KyussB

Deleted User wrote: »

...

There's a lot of focus on 'culture' - but when are things like lack of education, single parenthood, reduced opportunity (including job wise) and the crime that results, part of the social/economic effects of a systemically discriminatory system - and when are they 'culture'?

It's true that I'm emphasizing external factors - but it's the case that those factors inevitably lead to many of the socioeconomic problems in black communities.

If a group of people are genuinely victims of a discriminatory system, are they not both victims and should they not destructively demand that system be burned down, and be replaced? And demand reparations?

We're talking about destruction of black peoples lives (literally murders at the hands of the police) - versus destruction of property. Property is a legitimate target - it does not have more value than human lives.

Look at the shit that even 100 years later was taboo to talk about until recently - 300 black people just murdered at random, whole neighborhoods raized - makes some of the Belfast/Derry stuff early in the Troubles look like a picnic (and look how restrained the black population in the US has been, relative to Catholics up North over the last ~50 years...):
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/may/30/tulsa-race-massacre-scott-ellsworth-historian

I'm inherently suspicious of narratives which emphasize individual responsibility, for things which are the result of systemic discrimination. Probably because it's one of the most regularly deployed moral arguments in economic debates, and taking a big-picture/macroeconomic view of things has shown me that it's almost always wrong or at best misleading.

Anyway, I'll try to end the BLM tangent there, due to the focus of the topic.

Dyr

KyussB wrote: »

The only thing that would lend credibility to the idea that police brutality in the US has less to do with racism - is the general problem of excessive militarization of the police and general increase in police brutality. Which, demographically, does get doled out disproportionately to black folk.

lots of claims there, might want to back them up.

Naturally, you ignore that demographically, black people (not folk, weird use of a term) commit a disproportionate amount of crime.

pgj2015

Im not sure how this poor guy didn't win his case. I was disgusted reading it. A fcuking written warning for that? he should have been sent to prison.

https://www.independent.ie/news/nigerian-man-who-was-told-he-looks-like-a-chimpanzee-by-team-leader-loses-race-discrimination-case-against-employer-39755990.html

KyussB

Bambi wrote: »

lots of claims there, might want to back them up.

Naturally, you ignore that demographically, black people (not folk, weird use of a term) commit a disproportionate amount of crime.

Some preliminary figures here - this debate is the first time I've looked any of them up:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52877678

Ya but disproportionate crime among a group is tied to economic opportunity as well (e.g. less education, can crudely translate to less opportunity for jobs, which can crudely translate to more crime) - which is tied into systemic generations-long racial discrimination.

Another striking figure, is the rate at which black people in the US are targeted for stop-and-search etc..

KyussB

KyussB wrote: »

There's a lot of focus on 'culture' - but when are things like lack of education, single parenthood, reduced opportunity (including job wise) and the crime that results, part of the social/economic effects of a systemically discriminatory system - and when are they 'culture'?

Where does culture come from? The experiences and expectations of a society over time... and how long have these various factors been happening? A rather long time. Just look at Black music (Jazz, motown, HipHop, rap, etc) with the elevation of gangsters and murderers, which results in younger people emulating them through attitude, leading to... violence, drug abuse, etc. Culture changes over time... and has real implications on the behavior of associated groups.

It's true that I'm emphasizing external factors - but it's the case that those factors inevitably lead to many of the socioeconomic problems in black communities.

Of course they do, but you're excluding everything else that also leads to those socioeconomic problems.

If a group of people are genuinely victims of a discriminatory system, are they not both victims and should they not destructively demand that system be burned down, and be replaced? And demand reparations?

I'd highly recommend you listen to some of Thomas Sowell's discourses on Black people in the US, the economics, and what comes from it.

We're talking about destruction of black peoples lives (literally murders at the hands of the police) - versus destruction of property. Property is a legitimate target - it does not have more value than human lives.

Nope. We're talking about the effects of BLM on American society, and what has arisen from it. The police brutality and discrimination has been acknowledged multiple times, but you keep returning to it, because you're unwilling to allow any similar acknowledgement of the negatives of the BLM movement.

Yup. I snipped because it's more of the same deflection.

I'm inherently suspicious of narratives which emphasize individual responsibility, for things which are the result of systemic discrimination. Probably because it's one of the most regularly deployed moral arguments in economic debates, and taking a big-picture/macroeconomic view of things has shown me that it's almost always wrong or at best misleading.

haha.. that's nice... since it doesn't represent what I said.

Anyway, I'll try to end the BLM tangent there, due to the focus of the topic.

Grand. I'm fine with that.

KyussB

KyussB wrote: »

Ya but

Another striking figure, is the rate at which black people in the US are targeted for stop-and-search etc..

And when a racial group is highly represented for crime, then it stands to reason that they will be viewed as a source of potential crime.

Perspectives will shift over time due to past behavior of an associated group (in this case, racial, but it could be any number of strong associations). Just as the view of Black people towards police officers is due to the past behavior of a portion of them, leading to the whole group being distrusted/feared (even though many remain trustworthy/honest/etc). It's basic human nature and can be found in many situations.

KyussB

Will leave it there on the BLM stuff - but just to note on Thomas Sowell - he's a supply-side economist, of the right-wing Libertarian persuasion (who despite that supported the Iraq war) - who has studied under Friedman and is a free-market-zealot. Climate change denialism etc.. He's discredited himself as a propagandist numerous times - not a credible figure.

guy2231

I very much believe the vast majority of so called "racism" is very much down to paranoia from world events and how much racism is talked about in the media, a lot of people tend to jump to the conclusion of racism when something strange or bad happens like not getting on with your colleagues or just not fitting in as well as others due to cultural differences.

The same problems are faced by people of different cultures around Ireland but when there is a colour difference people definitely jump to the racism conclusion quite often.

KyussB

KyussB wrote: »

Will leave it there on the BLM stuff - but just to note on Thomas Sowell - he's a supply-side economist, of the right-wing Libertarian persuasion (who despite that supported the Iraq war) - who has studied under Friedman and is a free-market-zealot. Climate change denialism etc.. He's discredited himself as a propagandist numerous times - not a credible figure.

haha.. No surprise with that response.

Okay. Enough with the US.

KyussB

Mind the Libertarians (right-wing US) - they have spent decades spouting the most facile propaganda, in terms of economics (supply side, pro-austerity, pro-deflation, goldbugs, anti-government-everything), public health (pro-tobacco, pollution denialism, anit-environmentalism, climate change denial) - and the general movement has a history of ties to support of racist apartheid in South Africa, and US-oriented fascism in general.

They're not good bedfollows - and their astroturfing of identity politics during the last half-decade/decade (which has not gone unnoticed, I saw that become prominent years ago when the economics astroturfing started to fade), puts them on the extreme right of the US Republican party.

Baggly

KyussB is now threadbanned from this thread

Tombo2001

biko wrote: »

Has the been any proven cases of racism in the Irish workplace?
Are there any cases before the courts with claims of racism in the workplace?
Have there been people sued? Companies sued?

I saw a black Dublin bus driver being spat and called strongly racist language by three gougers in Cabra who had tried to board the bus with a bottle of cider.

Would that meet your threshold? I doubt if it ever went to court, but I can tell you it was traumatic enough for me just watching it so God knows how the driver felt.

Donald Trump

pgj2015 wrote: »

Im not sure how this poor guy didn't win his case. I was disgusted reading it. A fcuking written warning for that? he should have been sent to prison.

https://www.independent.ie/news/nigerian-man-who-was-told-he-looks-like-a-chimpanzee-by-team-leader-loses-race-discrimination-case-against-employer-39755990.html

It was because the company dealt with it properly.



I don't see how you think your man should have been sent to prison. That's a bit of an overreaction in fairness. He was put on a final warning. The company probably couldn't be guaranteed that they could just fire him straight off either without him taking a case.

pgj2015

pgj2015 wrote: »

Im not sure how this poor guy didn't win his case. I was disgusted reading it. A fcuking written warning for that? he should have been sent to prison.

https://www.independent.ie/news/nigerian-man-who-was-told-he-looks-like-a-chimpanzee-by-team-leader-loses-race-discrimination-case-against-employer-39755990.html

Sent to prison?

I'm assuming you are exaggerating for effect?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm assuming you are exaggerating for effect?

I wouldn't be too sure of that. I've found that many people these days hold rather extreme views as to what a response to racism should be. The introduction of draconian and authoritarian rules to ensure that those who engage in racism should be punished, as a lesson in fear for anyone else who might to the same.

Ash.J.Williams

I’d say the racism in certain sectors (labourers for definite) is unbelievable and will never be reported

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't be too sure of that. I've found that many people these days hold rather extreme views as to what a response to racism should be. The introduction of draconian and authoritarian rules to ensure that those who engage in racism should be punished, as a lesson in fear for anyone else who might to the same.

Well the ****storm that would cause would be a interesting in a voyeuristic way.

I for one would not welcome it.

guy2231

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I saw a black Dublin bus driver being spat and called strongly racist language by three gougers in Cabra who had tried to board the bus with a bottle of cider.

Would that meet your threshold? I doubt if it ever went to court, but I can tell you it was traumatic enough for me just watching it so God knows how the driver felt.

In circumstances like this most of the time the people aren't even racist they just use whatever language they can to p*** off the person they are arguing with, using the N word or words like fat, old or whatever.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Well the ****storm that would cause would be a interesting in a voyeuristic way.

I for one would not welcome it.

Ahh well... I look at western society, and feel that there is a definite push towards embracing the extremes. Almost like riding a wave, where on the downward slope, we return to something similar to common sense. Although each time, we become used to something marginally higher than before.. the extreme is used to allow something that previously would have been unacceptable, but a moderate compromise as opposed to taking that extreme option.

And so it becomes commonplace, and more acceptable, allowing for a further step towards that distant extreme. At least, until its reached and we question the whole situation, wanting to return to actual fairness and practical resolution of the problems involved.

Donald Trump

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I saw a black Dublin bus driver being spat and called strongly racist language by three gougers in Cabra who had tried to board the bus with a bottle of cider.

Would that meet your threshold? I doubt if it ever went to court, but I can tell you it was traumatic enough for me just watching it so God knows how the driver felt.

That wouldn't be my understanding of the term "workplace racism".



I would have thought it to mean racism present within the structures of the organisation you worked for. Not when encountering members of the public during the course of your job.

biko

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I saw a black Dublin bus driver being spat and called strongly racist language by three gougers in Cabra who had tried to board the bus with a bottle of cider.

Would that meet your threshold? I doubt if it ever went to court, but I can tell you it was traumatic enough for me just watching it so God knows how the driver felt.

It doesn't meet the threshold for institutionalised racism as it's anecdotal, but yes in every country people say and do racist things.
Unfortunately this will continue as long as people don't stand up to them.

guy2231

biko wrote: »

It doesn't meet the threshold for institutionalised racism as it's anecdotal, but yes in every country people say and do racist things.
Unfortunately this will continue as long as people don't stand up to them.

This will always happen as drunk idiot scumbags will always use the N word in an argument if they know it will annoy the other person, if they are not racist they will still say it anyway just to p*** the other person off, those people were probably listening to 2pac and Biggie before they got on the bus.

I doubt there are really any real racists in Ireland bar a tiny few, most instances of supposed racism is down to cultural differences and misunderstandings due to how much racism is talked about in the media from other countries which gives off a feeling of paranoia when any little thing happens some people automacilly jump to the conclusion of racism.

pgj2015

Donald Trump wrote: »

It was because the company dealt with it properly.



I don't see how you think your man should have been sent to prison. That's a bit of an overreaction in fairness. He was put on a final warning. The company probably couldn't be guaranteed that they could just fire him straight off either without him taking a case.

Im not sure how being given a written warning is a suitable punishment for the way the team leader treated that employee. Im sure people have been fired for a lot less. what that guy did to the employee was as good at physically assaulting him in my opinion, maybe even worse, it makes me sick.

Gradius

Take monetary rewards out of the equation and watch complaints practically disappear.