Black people Racism in Workplace in Ireland

KyussB

KyussB wrote: »

There's a lot of focus on 'culture' - but when are things like lack of education, single parenthood, reduced opportunity (including job wise) and the crime that results, part of the social/economic effects of a systemically discriminatory system - and when are they 'culture'?

Where does culture come from? The experiences and expectations of a society over time... and how long have these various factors been happening? A rather long time. Just look at Black music (Jazz, motown, HipHop, rap, etc) with the elevation of gangsters and murderers, which results in younger people emulating them through attitude, leading to... violence, drug abuse, etc. Culture changes over time... and has real implications on the behavior of associated groups.

It's true that I'm emphasizing external factors - but it's the case that those factors inevitably lead to many of the socioeconomic problems in black communities.

Of course they do, but you're excluding everything else that also leads to those socioeconomic problems.

If a group of people are genuinely victims of a discriminatory system, are they not both victims and should they not destructively demand that system be burned down, and be replaced? And demand reparations?

I'd highly recommend you listen to some of Thomas Sowell's discourses on Black people in the US, the economics, and what comes from it.

We're talking about destruction of black peoples lives (literally murders at the hands of the police) - versus destruction of property. Property is a legitimate target - it does not have more value than human lives.

Nope. We're talking about the effects of BLM on American society, and what has arisen from it. The police brutality and discrimination has been acknowledged multiple times, but you keep returning to it, because you're unwilling to allow any similar acknowledgement of the negatives of the BLM movement.

Yup. I snipped because it's more of the same deflection.

I'm inherently suspicious of narratives which emphasize individual responsibility, for things which are the result of systemic discrimination. Probably because it's one of the most regularly deployed moral arguments in economic debates, and taking a big-picture/macroeconomic view of things has shown me that it's almost always wrong or at best misleading.

haha.. that's nice... since it doesn't represent what I said.

Anyway, I'll try to end the BLM tangent there, due to the focus of the topic.

Grand. I'm fine with that.

KyussB

KyussB wrote: »

Ya but

Another striking figure, is the rate at which black people in the US are targeted for stop-and-search etc..

And when a racial group is highly represented for crime, then it stands to reason that they will be viewed as a source of potential crime.

Perspectives will shift over time due to past behavior of an associated group (in this case, racial, but it could be any number of strong associations). Just as the view of Black people towards police officers is due to the past behavior of a portion of them, leading to the whole group being distrusted/feared (even though many remain trustworthy/honest/etc). It's basic human nature and can be found in many situations.

KyussB

Will leave it there on the BLM stuff - but just to note on Thomas Sowell - he's a supply-side economist, of the right-wing Libertarian persuasion (who despite that supported the Iraq war) - who has studied under Friedman and is a free-market-zealot. Climate change denialism etc.. He's discredited himself as a propagandist numerous times - not a credible figure.

guy2231

I very much believe the vast majority of so called "racism" is very much down to paranoia from world events and how much racism is talked about in the media, a lot of people tend to jump to the conclusion of racism when something strange or bad happens like not getting on with your colleagues or just not fitting in as well as others due to cultural differences.

The same problems are faced by people of different cultures around Ireland but when there is a colour difference people definitely jump to the racism conclusion quite often.

KyussB

KyussB wrote: »

Will leave it there on the BLM stuff - but just to note on Thomas Sowell - he's a supply-side economist, of the right-wing Libertarian persuasion (who despite that supported the Iraq war) - who has studied under Friedman and is a free-market-zealot. Climate change denialism etc.. He's discredited himself as a propagandist numerous times - not a credible figure.

haha.. No surprise with that response.

Okay. Enough with the US.

KyussB

Mind the Libertarians (right-wing US) - they have spent decades spouting the most facile propaganda, in terms of economics (supply side, pro-austerity, pro-deflation, goldbugs, anti-government-everything), public health (pro-tobacco, pollution denialism, anit-environmentalism, climate change denial) - and the general movement has a history of ties to support of racist apartheid in South Africa, and US-oriented fascism in general.

They're not good bedfollows - and their astroturfing of identity politics during the last half-decade/decade (which has not gone unnoticed, I saw that become prominent years ago when the economics astroturfing started to fade), puts them on the extreme right of the US Republican party.

Baggly

KyussB is now threadbanned from this thread

Tombo2001

biko wrote: »

Has the been any proven cases of racism in the Irish workplace?
Are there any cases before the courts with claims of racism in the workplace?
Have there been people sued? Companies sued?

I saw a black Dublin bus driver being spat and called strongly racist language by three gougers in Cabra who had tried to board the bus with a bottle of cider.

Would that meet your threshold? I doubt if it ever went to court, but I can tell you it was traumatic enough for me just watching it so God knows how the driver felt.

Donald Trump

pgj2015 wrote: »

Im not sure how this poor guy didn't win his case. I was disgusted reading it. A fcuking written warning for that? he should have been sent to prison.

https://www.independent.ie/news/nigerian-man-who-was-told-he-looks-like-a-chimpanzee-by-team-leader-loses-race-discrimination-case-against-employer-39755990.html

It was because the company dealt with it properly.



I don't see how you think your man should have been sent to prison. That's a bit of an overreaction in fairness. He was put on a final warning. The company probably couldn't be guaranteed that they could just fire him straight off either without him taking a case.

pgj2015

pgj2015 wrote: »

Im not sure how this poor guy didn't win his case. I was disgusted reading it. A fcuking written warning for that? he should have been sent to prison.

https://www.independent.ie/news/nigerian-man-who-was-told-he-looks-like-a-chimpanzee-by-team-leader-loses-race-discrimination-case-against-employer-39755990.html

Sent to prison?

I'm assuming you are exaggerating for effect?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm assuming you are exaggerating for effect?

I wouldn't be too sure of that. I've found that many people these days hold rather extreme views as to what a response to racism should be. The introduction of draconian and authoritarian rules to ensure that those who engage in racism should be punished, as a lesson in fear for anyone else who might to the same.

Ash.J.Williams

I’d say the racism in certain sectors (labourers for definite) is unbelievable and will never be reported

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't be too sure of that. I've found that many people these days hold rather extreme views as to what a response to racism should be. The introduction of draconian and authoritarian rules to ensure that those who engage in racism should be punished, as a lesson in fear for anyone else who might to the same.

Well the ****storm that would cause would be a interesting in a voyeuristic way.

I for one would not welcome it.

guy2231

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I saw a black Dublin bus driver being spat and called strongly racist language by three gougers in Cabra who had tried to board the bus with a bottle of cider.

Would that meet your threshold? I doubt if it ever went to court, but I can tell you it was traumatic enough for me just watching it so God knows how the driver felt.

In circumstances like this most of the time the people aren't even racist they just use whatever language they can to p*** off the person they are arguing with, using the N word or words like fat, old or whatever.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Well the ****storm that would cause would be a interesting in a voyeuristic way.

I for one would not welcome it.

Ahh well... I look at western society, and feel that there is a definite push towards embracing the extremes. Almost like riding a wave, where on the downward slope, we return to something similar to common sense. Although each time, we become used to something marginally higher than before.. the extreme is used to allow something that previously would have been unacceptable, but a moderate compromise as opposed to taking that extreme option.

And so it becomes commonplace, and more acceptable, allowing for a further step towards that distant extreme. At least, until its reached and we question the whole situation, wanting to return to actual fairness and practical resolution of the problems involved.

Donald Trump

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I saw a black Dublin bus driver being spat and called strongly racist language by three gougers in Cabra who had tried to board the bus with a bottle of cider.

Would that meet your threshold? I doubt if it ever went to court, but I can tell you it was traumatic enough for me just watching it so God knows how the driver felt.

That wouldn't be my understanding of the term "workplace racism".



I would have thought it to mean racism present within the structures of the organisation you worked for. Not when encountering members of the public during the course of your job.

biko

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I saw a black Dublin bus driver being spat and called strongly racist language by three gougers in Cabra who had tried to board the bus with a bottle of cider.

Would that meet your threshold? I doubt if it ever went to court, but I can tell you it was traumatic enough for me just watching it so God knows how the driver felt.

It doesn't meet the threshold for institutionalised racism as it's anecdotal, but yes in every country people say and do racist things.
Unfortunately this will continue as long as people don't stand up to them.

guy2231

biko wrote: »

It doesn't meet the threshold for institutionalised racism as it's anecdotal, but yes in every country people say and do racist things.
Unfortunately this will continue as long as people don't stand up to them.

This will always happen as drunk idiot scumbags will always use the N word in an argument if they know it will annoy the other person, if they are not racist they will still say it anyway just to p*** the other person off, those people were probably listening to 2pac and Biggie before they got on the bus.

I doubt there are really any real racists in Ireland bar a tiny few, most instances of supposed racism is down to cultural differences and misunderstandings due to how much racism is talked about in the media from other countries which gives off a feeling of paranoia when any little thing happens some people automacilly jump to the conclusion of racism.

pgj2015

Donald Trump wrote: »

It was because the company dealt with it properly.



I don't see how you think your man should have been sent to prison. That's a bit of an overreaction in fairness. He was put on a final warning. The company probably couldn't be guaranteed that they could just fire him straight off either without him taking a case.

Im not sure how being given a written warning is a suitable punishment for the way the team leader treated that employee. Im sure people have been fired for a lot less. what that guy did to the employee was as good at physically assaulting him in my opinion, maybe even worse, it makes me sick.

Gradius

Take monetary rewards out of the equation and watch complaints practically disappear.

pgj2015

Deleted User wrote: »

Sent to prison?

I'm assuming you are exaggerating for effect?

No im not exaggerating at all. I a white Irish man and I have no idea what it must be like to be abused like that but I imagine it would be very hurtful and humiliating, especially coming from someone in authority over you. I think a few months in prison is absolutely fitting for anyone who would abuse someone like that. If he had punched him he would have the threat of prison so why not for this? words can be every bit as hurtful to a person. why would you have a problem with that? do you think a written warning is a suitable punishment for what that employee suffered?

WrenBoy

pgj2015 wrote: »

No im not exaggerating at all. I a white Irish man and I have no idea what it must be like to be abused like that but I imagine it would be very hurtful and humiliating, especially coming from someone in authority over you. I think a few months in prison is absolutely fitting for anyone who would abuse someone like that. If he had punched him he would have the threat of prison so why not for this? words can be every bit as hurtful to a person. why would you have a problem with that? do you think a written warning is a suitable punishment for what that employee suffered?

I agree that the manager should be punished but prison would be too much imo.
Words are not physical violence, words can be upsetting and harmful but words are not violence. Its a ridiculous argument that has gotten too much traction recently almost exclusively from that asylum to the west.

Donald Trump

WrenBoy wrote: »

I agree that the manager should be punished but prison would be too much imo.
Words are not physical violence, words can be upsetting and harmful but words are not violence. Its a ridiculous argument that has gotten too much traction recently almost exclusively from that asylum to the west.

I think it is insulting to victims of serious physical racial violence to equate them to someone being insulted once or twice by a thick ignorant bollix.

WrenBoy

Donald Trump wrote: »

I think it is insulting to victims of serious physical racial violence to equate them to someone being insulted once or twice by a thick ignorant bollix.

I think it speaks to how good we have it here in our part of the world that this is what people consider "violence"
Both a blessing and a curse.

newhouse87

the prick should have been sacked, final warning not good enough.

newhouse87

newhouse87 wrote: »

the prick should have been sacked, final warning not good enough.

Everyone deserves the chance to learn and improve... In most cases, three warnings are the rule. Verbal, written, written, dismissal. Otherwise the chance of abuse against employees by management increases for all manner of things.

You do realise anyone sacked on the first instance will simply go away with bitterness and further anger towards that racial group, likely leading to something worse?

newhouse87

Deleted User wrote: »

Everyone deserves the chance to learn and improve... In most cases, three warnings are the rule. Verbal, written, written, dismissal. Otherwise the chance of abuse against employees by management increases for all manner of things.

You do realise anyone sacked on the first instance will simply go away with bitterness and further anger towards that racial group, likely leading to something worse?

Nah, cant agree, it pure bile to call somebody a chimpanzee and make monkey noises. People like that i don't think will ever be anything but racist. I know racist is thrown about these days, but that mangers behavior is abhorrent.

newhouse87

newhouse87 wrote: »

Nah, cant agree, it pure bile to call somebody a chimpanzee and make monkey noises.

I don't disagree. It is abhorrent behavior, and should be punished. Although, final dismissal should be done after a series of warnings... that doesn't mean that punishment can't occur before then though.

Donald Trump

The article says that, for the reported incident, the team leader said he looked like a chimpanzee and apologised 30 minutes later. The following day, it was reported to management.

It was later that the allegation of the earlier incident was added subsequently. There is no mention of acceptance or denying that incident. However it would appear to me to be strange that in going to the bother of reporting the May incident, the complainant did not mention the February incident.

I am not justifying any behaviour. I am only commenting on the remark about the "monkey noises"

I would not be 100% convinced on the veracity of the earlier incident based on the article. The earlier incident is claimed to have taken place in front of other staff and been more severe to the later one. Yet the manager did not apologise for the earlier one. From the article, it appears he apologised for the second one before it was reported to the management.

Edit: In case anyone tries to twist what I am saying, I am 100% convinced of the veracity of the May incident.

pgj2015

I think if we are serious about stamping out racism, we should punish severely people who racially abuse others. I don't think we have a big racism problem here in Ireland but it does exist. no one should be demeaned like that anywhere, including in their place of work.

osarusan

I'm surprised that doesn't meet the standard for summary dismissal (or that the company chose not to enforce it).

I wouldn't think at all that this is a moment for training (sensitivity/diversity/whatever). In 2019, some lad making monkey noises and telling a black guy he looks like a chimpanzee has absolutely no excuse for it, none whatsoever. There's nothing he'd hear in any training session that he doesn't already know but chooses to ignore.

WrenBoy

pgj2015 wrote: »

I think if we are serious about stamping out racism, we should punish severely people who racially abuse others. I don't think we have a big racism problem here in Ireland but it does exist. no one should be demeaned like that anywhere, including in their place of work.

The worry is that its not applied fairly across the board is it as well as it being an incredibly complex and nuanced issue. Whats the line ? Does provocation come into it ? How can we interpret intent ? Whats the proof required ?

pgj2015

pgj2015 wrote: »

I think if we are serious about stamping out racism, we should punish severely people who racially abuse others. I don't think we have a big racism problem here in Ireland but it does exist. no one should be demeaned like that anywhere, including in their place of work.

Serious about stamping out racism.. there's a certain finality to that. Being serious too.

Now, perhaps you can relate to us which societies have successfully stamped out racism entirely (or even come close to it)?

pgj2015

Deleted User wrote: »

Serious about stamping out racism.. there's a certain finality to that. Being serious too.

Now, perhaps you can relate to us which societies have successfully stamped out racism entirely (or even come close to it)?

Ok, I will rephrase it, if we are serious about showing people there will be no tolerance to racist behavior ........

Annasopra

guy2231 wrote: »

This will always happen as drunk idiot scumbags will always use the N word in an argument if they know it will annoy the other person, if they are not racist they will still say it anyway just to p*** the other person off, those people were probably listening to 2pac and Biggie before they got on the bus.

I doubt there are really any real racists in Ireland bar a tiny few, most instances of supposed racism is down to cultural differences and misunderstandings due to how much racism is talked about in the media from other countries which gives off a feeling of paranoia when any little thing happens some people automacilly jump to the conclusion of racism.

This is just absolutely and utter drivel claiming using the N word is not racist.

MarkEadie

Annasopra wrote: »

This is just absolutely and utter drivel claiming using the N word is not racist.

I agree 99% of the time but sometimes it is a unique case like the girl who racially abused the doorman on that video that went viral. Sharna walker was her name. She was saying racist stuff but she was very drunk and came out afterward saying she's had black boyfriends and isn't racist. I had a friend who I know wouldn't touch a black person sexually was acting outraged about it when this girl actually probably has no problem dating black guys and said that stuff when very drunk.Im not sure whose side to take there? I think the person would have to be out of their heads drunk or on drugs for me to think it might be excused but I'm speaking as a white person so I'm open to any people of colour correcting me.

MarkEadie

MarkEadie wrote: »

I agree 99% of the time but sometimes it is a unique case like the girl who racially abused the doorman on that video that went viral. Sharna walker was her name. She was saying racist stuff but she was very drunk and came out afterward saying she's had black boyfriends and isn't racist. I had a friend who I know wouldn't touch a black person sexually was acting outraged about it when this girl actually probably has no problem dating black guys and said that stuff when very drunk.Im not sure whose side to take there? I think the person would have to be out of their heads drunk or on drugs for me to think it might be excused but I'm speaking as a white person so I'm open to any people of colour correcting me.

She claimed she had Black boyfriends in the past, and many people have very loose interpretations as to what a boyfriend represents. In any case, relationships can be quite abusive on many levels, so who can say what went on. She was a drunk muppet shouting horrible abuse and was called up on it. Racist? Yeah, I'd say so. TBH I can't see why this case represents the 1% for using the N word in any kind of acceptable way.

Still, if we were serious about making the N word taboo, then we'd seeking to reduce Black people from using it too. Double standards rarely work well.

biko

Gradius wrote: »

Take monetary rewards out of the equation and watch complaints practically disappear.

I didn't even know you could get money if you won a complaint. I'm not sure it would be grounds enough for a majority of the complaints, perhaps one or two.

MarkEadie

[Deleted User] wrote: »

She claimed she had Black boyfriends in the past, and many people have very loose interpretations as to what a boyfriend represents. In any case, relationships can be quite abusive on many levels, so who can say what went on. She was a drunk muppet shouting horrible abuse and was called up on it. Racist? Yeah, I'd say so. TBH I can't see why this case represents the 1% for using the N word in any kind of acceptable way.

Still, if we were serious about making the N word taboo, then we'd seeking to reduce Black people from using it too. Double standards rarely work well.

Sadly the N word is used casually as is the C word with regard to Asians. It says something about white people that this happens so casually imo. Its less and less common thankfully but still very widespread.

The girl dated black guys. I'm not sure why you brought abuse in relationships into it.

I think she was just drunk out of her mind and hurled the first insults that came to mind. She'd have called him an ugly baldy fat bastard if he fit any of those criteria. It's racist language but I wonder if people of colour would be a little forgiving given she has shown she isn't racist in her personal life. Seems like we only have middle aged white people on here though?

MarkEadie

MarkEadie wrote: »

The girl dated black guys. I'm not sure why you brought abuse in relationships into it.

Because she could be racist even if she did date black guys previously, due to experiences in an abusive relationship, or even she sought out such a situation. The relationships that people have are often based on less than healthy circumstances..

Also, she claimed she had dated black guys previously. No proof was given, from the articles I read.

I think she was just drunk out of her mind and hurled the first insults that came to mind. She'd have called him an ugly baldy fat bastard if he fit any of those criteria. It's racist language but I wonder if people of colour would be a little forgiving given she has shown she isn't racist in her personal life. Seems like we only have middle aged white people on here though?

How has she shown she isn't racist in her personal life, beyond claiming that she wasn't. You're throwing around a lot of belief in her statements when we have very little evidence to support it. We simply have how she behaved.. and that behavior was abysmal. And no, I don't excuse that behavior because she was drunk.. I've been drunk many times in my life and didn't abuse others in such a manner, especially, considering the reasons she was angry.

In any case, it's a silly example, since the woman was abusive for more than being racist.

pgj2015

pgj2015 wrote: »

I think if we are serious about stamping out racism, we should punish severely people who racially abuse others. I don't think we have a big racism problem here in Ireland but it does exist. no one should be demeaned like that anywhere, including in their place of work.

To the extent of jail?

Pussyhands

hawley wrote: »

The problem doesn't seem to be getting any better.

If politicians and broadcasters keep telling us we're all racists, employers introduce quotas for "diversity" and politicians siding with race baiters like Ebun Joseph/George Nkencho family, then it's no surprise people's resentment will grow.

Das Reich

hawley wrote: »

We need to have a conversation around racism in Ireland. It was highlighted earlier in the week on the Claire Byrne. The problem doesn't seem to be getting any better. There is a massive problem with unemployment in the black community. People coming here as asylum seekers need to be supported in education with regard to language skills and suitable working skills. A lot of Irish people don't want to discuss this issue, but it has been shown that there is the problem with racism is worsening here.

All blacks from my country that are here in Ireland always worked and never got or asked any support by the others. Go to any meat factory and is full of Brazilians working hard, never complaining. Why are we worse than those asylum seekers that they deserve and we not?

Pussyhands

Leon Diop, one of the founders of Black and Irish:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/man-wins-fleeting-defamation-case-against-luas-and-is-awarded-500-1.4113254

A man has been awarded €500 and his legal costs after the High Court found he was subject to a “fleeting defamation” during an incident in which he claimed a Luas tram security guard racially profiled him and his brother.

The court heard Mr Diop, who was president of Maynooth University Students’ Union at the time, got on the tram in Dublin city centre with his brother Adam on June 8th 2016.

Two STT security guards boarded at Blackhorse. The guards claimed there had been a problem that day with three black youths hopping on and off the tram without tickets and generally behaving badly.

As the guards got on, a black youth got off and immediately the first security guard went over to the Diop brothers.

Mr Justice Barr was satisfied the security guard only asked the Diops for the tickets after Leon said: “This is slightly racially profiling.”

Why are RTE giving platforms to people like him who are always seeking to play the victim?

Annasopra

Annasopra wrote: »

This is just absolutely and utter drivel claiming using the N word is not racist.

He never claimed that.

He claimed that it is not ALWAYS racist.

Do you not agree?

biddyearley

Another thing that annoys me is the perception of racism if you ask a non-white Irish person about their background. I'm smart enough to know that is they have a broad Irish accent that they were brought up here, and asking about their parents country of origin should not be taken as racism, but as an attempt to understand this new diversity in our country. A black South African has a different background to a black Nigerian. All the information just helps me inform my decisions and understand any possible issues or viewpoints.

You could tell an Irish person from their accent, and those along the border or from NI had a markedly different understanding of certain issues than someone in Galway or Wexford. Calling racism is an easy way to shut down the conversion and attempt to hide your own background, good or bad.

Overheal

biddyearley wrote: »

Another thing that annoys me is the perception of racism if you ask a non-white Irish person about their background. I'm smart enough to know that is they have a broad Irish accent that they were brought up here, and asking about their parents country of origin should not be taken as racism, but as an attempt to understand this new diversity in our country. A black South African has a different background to a black Nigerian. All the information just helps me inform my decisions and understand any possible issues or viewpoints.

You could tell an Irish person from their accent, and those along the border or from NI had a markedly different understanding of certain issues than someone in Galway or Wexford. Calling racism is an easy way to shut down the conversion and attempt to hide your own background, good or bad.

How does knowing their parents country of origin help you manage that?

Pussyhands

biddyearley wrote: »

Another thing that annoys me is the perception of racism if you ask a non-white Irish person about their background. I'm smart enough to know that is they have a broad Irish accent that they were brought up here, and asking about their parents country of origin should not be taken as racism, but as an attempt to understand this new diversity in our country. A black South African has a different background to a black Nigerian. All the information just helps me inform my decisions and understand any possible issues or viewpoints.

You could tell an Irish person from their accent, and those along the border or from NI had a markedly different understanding of certain issues than someone in Galway or Wexford. Calling racism is an easy way to shut down the conversion and attempt to hide your own background, good or bad.

Ryan Tubridy and all those woke types keep bringing this up in interviews with black people now.

"Q: So tell me about the question you're asked about where you're from?

A: They'll say where are you from? I say Ireland...and then they'll say "no, where are you really from?""

And then Tubridy and the guest will have a little laugh and be like "ha ha, you're really from Ireland!"

First of all, I don't think many people would say where are you really from. I'd imagine it's more, where are you from originally. Most of the time it's just a conversation maker, just like if I saw an Irish person out abroad I might as them where are they from. And then I'd be like "ahh yes, I have cousins from Waterford, been there a few times, it's great in the summer!"

bfa1509

When I hear RTE tell us about how racist we all are, I always ask myself: Why move to a country that's worse than the one you came from?

There is more racism in these cultures through the caste system so when they cast that to one side

then we can talk equally about racism. And a group of us witnessed an incident/attack between two Nigerians

a few years ago when I was doing a FAS course and ACTION should have been taken but wasn't!