The Irish protocol.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960720#Comment_117960720

I feel (and am) British but I feel even more Northern Irish. I don’t feel the slightest Irish. I guess it would be like asking you do you feel British because you live in the British Isles.

when I travel south I feel very welcome in the same way as when I go to Spain. But in both countries I feel I am visiting. different money different tax rules different colour of fuel different road markings, kph instead of mph, different flag, different anthem, catholic images and statues everywhere, etc,etc.

it’s all fine and dandy and I enjoy the diversity but it definitely feels like a foreign land.

when I go to Edinburgh it’s like going to portrush. None of the above changes.

this is why I don’t understand the surprise that I feel British and not Irish.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960735#Comment_117960735

It’s exactly the point I am making. Part of the island of Ireland is British.

Snugbugrug28

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960682#Comment_117960682

Having made a campaign based around righting the wrongs created by the Unionist Kingmaker episode, I doubt Labour would turn to the unionists.

smokie72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960715#Comment_117960715

To be honest I'm very interested in the Unionist point of view. I was watching clips of Unionists views on the south from 1965 earlier on youtube. Some balanced points were made and it showed as well how much has changed since. I consider myself a nationalist but if a border poll does happen which it probably will in the next 20 years then it is up for both sides to argue staying in the union or not. But I believe in a democratic process and I don't want a million unionists been forced into something they don't want.

I think most people down here don't understand the grievances of Northern nationalists so how would they understand Unionists/ A lot don't care really as long as no one is been killed or injured. We don't want to go back to those days.

My girlfriend lives in County Antrim from a largely protestant unionist village. She doesn't believe in religion but her loyalty is to the Queen. Mr Downcow I appreciate you are in a minority on this forum. Yes she saw some of the stuff that was said about you which she and I totally condemn. I don't agree with a lot of what you say but I have to respect your point of view. She does consider herself Irish and thinks anyone born on this Island is Irish. You don't seem to agree with that point. I don't find people from the North that much different either bar the accents.

I just find in some Unionists a built in fear that London is going to sell them down the river. The reality is that English nationalism rather than Irish nationalism is what Unionists should look at. I think economic factors will decide whether both Irelands will reunify in the future. Most of my English friends couldn't care less whether Northern Ireland is in the Union or not.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960890#Comment_117960890

Yeah can’t disagree with much of what you say.

I have lots of unionist friends who would describe themselves as British and Irish and that’s fine with me. I find they are mainly the grammar school ruggar boys - but even that is mixed as I am a grammar school fallout myself 😀.

my loyalty is first and foremost to NI. I respect the queen highly but it’s a bit aloof.

I don’t understand southern Irish nationalists and what their desire is the absorb OWC. They left the union 100years ago and have been trying to drag us with them since. They thought ni wouldn’t last 5 years but we now have our own identity and community growing stronger and more diverse every day.

thank god (and the shinners) for the gfa. It prevents English nationalists or southern Irish republicans from have any input into our place in the Uk

my dad is from your country and he brought us up to love Donegal and instilled respect in us for the general folk in the south, but left us in no doubt how excluded and discriminated his community felt. He loved to get back to his Donegal and I felt it was sad hearing of his deep love for the place but that he had to leave to get a fair chance in life.

smokie72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960959#Comment_117960959

Theres a chap on youtube called Brian John Spencer who does videos on loyalist/unionist culture and also interviews ordinary people on their views which we don't normally hear down south. He did one on the march in Rossnowlagh in Co Donegal which is a small Orange parade but it's a peaceful one and the locals just look on. Sorry to hear your Father had to be treated like that but unfortunately both sides were treated like that. Different times but if the Stormont government paid heed to what Lord Carson warned about treating Catholics like second class citizens then I feel a lot of trouble would have been avoided. I think it only helped to alienate a large minority up north. Also I found it odd the power the Catholic church had here down south at the time.

And I don't want to give you a history lesson as you probably know more than I but I think both Catholic and Protestant working classes were treated like dirt in the past by middle upper class establishment and used the Religion card to divide and conquer.

Would you feel closer to a Scottish identity or Ulster Scots? I feel Irish but I don't have much interest in the language and I'm sure I have viking, norman and anglo saxon genes in me. Even back in the day before the plantations of the 17th century Ulster was considered different. More tribal. I just find it a bit interesting that Unionists celebrate a victory over 300 years ago in a place that's now in a different country as you say yourself. Have you ever visited the Boyne battle site?

I had a great chat with a Republican and an ex RUC man in Teach Jack(pub in Gweedore, Donegal) about 6 years ago. Just found it fascinating that they were able to put their past behind them and were able to chat to themselves. It is going to take a long time to heal the bitterness of the past.

To be honest the best thing about the North been in the UK is that I'm able to order stuff from the mainland to herselfs address instead of mine cause thanks to brexit I can't get it delivered to mine. Apart from the road markings, miles per hour and currency I still feel I'm in Ireland.

I also think that the current discussion about reunification wouldn't haven't been so discussed if it weren't for brexit. I think most folk were content with the status quo and be able to travel north or south without border controls. I think it was a political russian roulette for the likes of the DUP to endorse it.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960959#Comment_117960959

"My dad is from your country".......🙄

It's quite telling when you have to go out of your way to write like that.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117961131#Comment_117961131

Your honesty is quite disarming and refreshing.

i can’t disagree with anything you are saying.

vast majority of parades are like rossnowlagh

I honestly don’t know anyone who goes to the twelfth to celebrate the battle of the boyne. It’s a community festival. I’d guess not many people go to at Patrick’s day to celebrate Patrick bringing Christianity to Ireland - would that be a fair comment?

Junkyard Tom

Apart from the road markings, miles per hour and currency I still feel I'm in Ireland.

That's because you are in Ireland which is the home country of the Irish people in all their diversity. I feel bad for DC, the desperation in his posts is palpable, the grasping at 'difference', the denial of the history of his own people as Irishmen and Irishwomen, it's all rather sad.

I was watching Jim Allister and Neale Richmond being interviewed recently and it demonstrated just how much damage partition has done to us all. Jim Allister absolutely pickled in bitterness, contrasted by Neale Richmond a young, liberally-minded, Protestant of Unionist heritage, completely comfortable in his own skin as an Irish TD.

Partition concentrated the rotten aspects of society in Ireland, we've largely emasculated the RCC in the south while the bitterness and hatred of Unionism is still very strong in the north. The likes of Paisley, Wilson, Campbell, Jim Wells and their desire to keep the north of our country in the 17th Century demonstrate perfectly that bitter, hateful, Unionism, truly the arse-end of the Protestant ascendancy in Ireland.

smokie72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117961197#Comment_117961197

I would think most people go to any social event/parade whether you agree with it or not to get pissed and have craic. Loyalists want to celebrate their culture on the 12th but it's something I wouldn't have any interest in. Just find it odd that they would march in a country they claim(or some of them) to hate. Each to their own I guess. I think we can agree to disagree on that?

I just think we have to be tolerant of each other on this wee Island we share. Easier said than done. Goodnight Mr Downcow

trashcan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960785#Comment_117960785

No, my surprise is that you feel one is exclusive of the other. But then you said that you never said you couldn’t be Irish and British, so I’m really not sure where you’re coming from. You don’t think Northern Irish qualifies as Irish ?

Oh, and btw, Catholic images and statues everywhere ? Really ?

smokie72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117961294#Comment_117961294

You could mention Heather Humphreys as well who has done very well coming from a Protestant Unionist background. All the fears the Unionists had years ago just aren't there anymore. Just goes to show how much we have moved on in the past several decades.

Fionn1952

One couldn't possibly take seriously the facetiousness of someone who claims to be from Co. Down who suggests that a twenty minute car trip is a more significant event than a trek through an airport.

All the moaning about currency......when NI notes aren't accepted in most of his supposed Union....there is an inherent desperation to be part of something that is much sadder than it is offensive.

The will to be part of something that really couldn't give half a sh*te about you must be galling...the deepest irony being that your average bloke from Edinburgh would probably be more comfortable visiting Dublin than his home town.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117960682#Comment_117960682

Surely if the electoral outcome "makes NI unionists the kingmakers with power well beyond their size" it is unionists such as yourself who should be worried about backfiring, downcow? The last time unionist MPs were in that position - from 2017-2019 - they used it to inflict untold damage on the Union, and to bring about the NI Protocol which they are apparently so unhappy about. And nothing they have said or done since then indicates that they have developed the least understanding of what they have done, or accepted the least responsibility for it. Put them back in that position and they may finish off the union entirely!

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117961327#Comment_117961327

I don’t think many unionists hate roi. Hate is a very strong word.

most unionists hate that some in roi want to deny us of the self determination promised in the gfa. Most unionists would love to see us as really good neighbours who respect each other’s right to exist.

I also like to see your football team lose at every opportunity but that is based on two things 1) the local rivalry just like Everton/Liverpool or any two neighbouring teams. 2) the underhand work ongoing to try and steal our catholic players (highly unsuccessful thankfully). So it is in our interests that we stay above you in the world rankings.

neighbours often have challenges but the fact that some in your country want to take over our country adds a whole new dimension.

I work for and all island organisation and I love that and the diversity it brings.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117961371#Comment_117961371

I think it is simple. I am British and hold a Brit passport. I also feel incredibly northern Irish. Others here are same but feel Irish. Some have Irish passports and feel Irish and maybe northern Irish. I am comfortable with all of that.

as for catholic images. I think you don’t see them because you are so used to them. I will be guilty of the same up north re maybe flags.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117961378#Comment_117961378

Of course you (and we) have travelled a distance but naming one or two protestants who have done well does not address the remaining issues. Same up here I could point to endless catholics how have done well but we need to look at the stats.

we both treated our minorities very badly and need to go the extra mile to redress.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117961414#Comment_117961414

Just demonstrating you naivety and bitterness. It’s ironic that we in ni are relaxed about our relationship within the Uk but so many in the south will never be settled until you take over your neighbour

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117961544#Comment_117961544

Now that’s a fact

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117961745#Comment_117961745

Relaxed about your relationship with the UK?!

By god, get a grip. Rarely does a day pass without a demonstration of Unionism's deep insecurity regarding your relationship with the UK.....bringing the thread back on topic, as the NI Protocol is a perfect example. The joint statement from all the Unionist parties screams insecurity, certainly not a relaxed attitude.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117961805#Comment_117961805

Oh certainly people are upset about the impact of the bad bits of the protocol.

but we want to remain in the Uk and we have an international agreement that we have total self determination in that.

you want a United Ireland and you have no such agreement, no route to it and little chance of seeing it in the foreseeable future.

that’s why I am more relaxed than you about the issue.

pixelburp

Man this thread is basically downcow vs. the world. Gotta agree with Fionn; the single person might be "relaxed" about their status, but the representatives at the political end of things are anything but; endangering a lucky shielding from brexit because unionist leaders would rather burn in fealty than suffer a closer tie with actual, physical neighbors. The anxiety obvious: a worry that the Protocol slowly shifts the axis around which NI turns from London to Dublin.

Peregrinus

Downcow may be relaxed about the union but NI as a whole clearly is not. For the entire history of NI it has been the dominant, bitterly divisive and frequently paralysing political question that eclipses all others, and that has caused decades-long domestic armed conflict. The armed conflict, mercifully, is over, but I don't think the insecurity is. The history and politics of NI is still characterised by systemic disagreement over the fundamental question of whether it should exist at all

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117961930#Comment_117961930

I think a bit of misunderstanding is going on; genuine in some cases, opportunist in others.

Of course there are major issues about a power we don't elect setting rules and laws for us.

But could anyone disagree with this below:

the ROI government thought NI wouldn't last 5 years in 1921

At no time in the last 100 years has a united country on this island looked imminent

Republicans keep telling us that it is just around the corner.

The IRA said they would achieve a united ireland

Gerry adams said there would be one by 2016

The GFA lets the people of NI alone decide if they want to remain in the UK

in the 1980s we all thought that a catholic majority would mean a united ireland - how wrong that is proving

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962129#Comment_117962129

I never said anything about United Ireland, only that an anxiety Over closer economic, social or cultural ties with the Republic is clearly making unionist leaders jittery. If those times lead to a UI, so be it. But it's not inevitable either if the two nations pull closer together at the expense of ties to London. This is what the Protocol is hinting at, despite also saving NI from the potential privations of brexit

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962129#Comment_117962129

Simple as this dwncow, the Irish government found out 100 years earlier than Unionism that perfidious Albion would shaft whosoever if the survival/prospering of Albion was at stake.

You can pretend you feel secure in the Union but you are anything but. Even though Dublin reassures you that the Protocol is no threat to your sovereignty in their eyes, the headless way your politicians are behaving is all the indication any viewer of political events needs to diagnose deep insecurity. .

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117961901#Comment_117961901

You can continue to put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes and insist everything is fine but we all know it isn't, Downcow. I'm a democrat....I fully support the right of NI to remain part of the UK as long as the majority there wish it to be so. I'd personally like to see Unification, but not at the expense of our democracy.

I'm perplexed as to how you think the GFA is an international agreement which guarantees our self-determination to remain in the UK but don't see it as guaranteeing our self-determination to unify? Quite an odd take....and once more screams a bit, 'doth protest too much' (a phrase I admittedly find delightfully appropriate when referring to Unionism).

An article from Patricia McBride I think hits the nail on the head

Choochtown

The big problem that I have with the Unionist leaders is that they see EVERYTHING through the lens of the "union"

Normal political issues such as health, education, industry etc. and not so normal ones such as pandemics, Brexit, historical murders are ALL viewed first and foremost within the constraints of unionism.

"Does this appear to make us seem more British or less British?" "Are we aligned more to what England is doing or what Ireland is doing?"

The protocol is just 1 example. What a chance to get the best of both worlds (EU and UK) for the people of the north!! Just because it might make someone feel a tiny bit less British, Unionism is up in arms about it. Ridiculous. The phrase "cut off your nose to spite your face" was never more apt.

Other examples ... Brexit, Covid rules on the island, historical murders, where to build a fuckin' hospital, how to fund a particular sport/language etc etc etc

Things will change and are changing. The bipolar politics, the fear of the other side is what gets racist, homophobic, expense-swindling bigots elected.

I can assure those of you who have never ventured north that the vast majority of unionist voters are NOT remotely like those clowns that they elect. They are normal, decent people who are accepting of others.

Doug Beattie may well be the trailblazer. He may well be the first ever Unionist leader who will actually work for the good of his constituents and now through the constraints and insecurity of traditional unionism. The jury is out.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117963116#Comment_117963116

And yet Doug Beattie (who I spoke of with great positivity and hopefulness in various threads on here) was right alongside Jim and Co with the Joint Unionist Declaration to get rid of the NI Protocol. It seems that even for the most reasonable of Unionist leaders, the insecurity of Unionism still wins out.

PeaSea

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117963221#Comment_117963221

Yes, I thought exactly the same. Don't forget that when the Ulster Unionists had MPs in parliament, they voted 100% with the DUP on all Brexit votes. I was very let down by Beattie, I genuinely thought he was going to be a bit different.