The Irish protocol.

downcow

Can I take your post paragraph by paragraph

1) I sort of agree, bits it’s complex. I feel many bigots on both side have had little opportunity to break out of their thinking.

2) don’t agree. I think that’s middle class wishful thinking that the rugby/tennis/golf club is somehow less sectarian. The best anti sectarianism work I have see in sport is in association football. More courage and realness than some other sports.

3) work - it seems you may be comparing one of the most affluent areas of roi with one of the least affluent areas of Uk. Maybe we should compare London and Galway? As for workers, there are loads of southerners working up here also. That is a massive debate which you will find on the thread about ‘ni is a failure’

and yes I agree sadly our society is still very devided

4) yes sadly I could see students picking their room based on religion. We have a long way to go. Often a mix of fear, hurt , prejudice

5) your ballyclare trip sounds like you projecting your prejudice and fear on those ladies. This happens a lot hear where people suspect the other of sectarianism. I doubt it was any more than the reaction you would have got if your accent was Australian or Canadian

6) both points here I think are nonsense. There are rundown unionist and nationalist areas. You will actually find most unionist areas have newer shops and buildings because the ira targeted Protestant areas with bombs and then buildings were replaced with new ones. Good and bad working politicians on both sides - eg Paisley had the name of getting things done for catholics

7) I think this is also nonsense. Nationalists brought down government for over 3 years over constitutional politics and they continually focus on Irish language and border polls. Both sides are bad at it but I would suggest unionists are more focused on the economy because they want ni to work, nationalists want it to fail

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117965663#Comment_117965663

All the Gaelic football matches I have been at they were collecting for the ira prisoners - but if I said “what do you expect from a group of bigots”, a number of you would report me and I would be dealt with. I am not even going to bother reporting you for calling tens of thousands attending fires ‘bigots’

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117965706#Comment_117965706

A good honest post. Thanks

controversy draws a difficult crowd on both sides.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117966170#Comment_117966170

Ridiculous post.

You've been to 2 GAA matches in your entire life. At ONE of them nearly 20 years ago a few people OUTSIDE the ground were collecting to raise money for legal fees for IRA prisoners in Columbia.

Things have moved on downcow and you really do your credibility no favours with posts like the above. For perspective, I attend about 40 GAA matches annually and I have NEVER EVER witnessed a collection for anything EVER. (except club lotto tickets).

How on earth can you equate 11th night bonfires with an organisation that does sterling cross-community work in the North?

You would get a lot more respect in these discussions if you defended and debated your unionist views honestly and sensibly.

FrancieBrady

Maybe it is, like burning witches, time to call a halt on bonfires on the scale we see in the north?

Good to see moves to regulate them IMO.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117966345#Comment_117966345

Why on earth would he go to GAA matches lol. It's nonsense. Every post is a parable.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117966414#Comment_117966414

That info is from a post of his in a thread he started accusing the GAA of being sectarian. Said he'd been to 2 games and at one of them "a Tyrone country game" (whatever that is) they were collecting for the Columbian 3 "at the gate"

Absolute nonsense of course but no doubt some will believe it.

I can just picture the scene "Tickets for the stand? That'll be 10 pounds and another 5 for the 'Ra please"

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117966345#Comment_117966345

Here is what I was responding to

“Nearly every bonfire I see on the TV, has a Tricolor and placards of nationalist politicians burning on them. A hate crime in every way but what do expect from a group of bigots.”

pretty offensive stuff. I was not equating anything with anything. I was simply pointing out how “ridiculous” his post was. I was demonstrating that if I wish I could present facts from my very limited experience of his culture and turn it into something it’s not. You’ll note I said I wouldn’t do that.

it is a fact I presented ie I have been to one GAA football match and there was a collection to fight the case of 3 ira members - the nationalists that took me to the game we very embarrassed. The other match you refer to that I attended was hurly in casement park. Although I think I may have attended one more small club game.

our friend is judging 11th bonfires from the few controversial ones that make it into the news.

smokie72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117966157#Comment_117966157

That is one thing we do agree on. It can be very complex in the way some people think up north. And there isn't a lot you nor I can do about the way people think.

The reason that they have put work into anti sectarian in association football is because it was a problem in the past and now they are trying to address it. Some of the best work is been done by local community groups on both sides of the peace walls and local contentious flash points. Most people just want to get on with their lives.

I live very near to an area which has a bad reputation for crime, anti social behaviour and high unemployment which has its own problems but I was shocked to see some areas of East Belfast. It reminded me of the area I live close to what it looked like 30 years ago when the south was a much poorer country than it is now. I also drove through a nationalist housing estate in Newry this summer and that was just as bad. these areas need massive investment.

If i'm prejudice then why am I with someone who comes from a Unionist background? It was just the vibe I got when I opened my mouth. 3 very chatty women suddenly stopped and just stared at me. If I went into a shop in the arse hole of Kerry or west cork I be asked where I'm from or how long are you planning to stay. Friendly banter as you say. But then again I wasn't brought up in a divided society with a mix of fear, hurt or prejudice as you said. These people could have had a very negative experience in the past? In fairness my mate Rob from England feels more welcome down South than in the North so maybe you're right.

I drive quite regularly up North and that's what I hear on the grapevine. Most of the people I talk to would be from a Unionist background. I don't think every Catholic/nationalist wants the North to fail. I know a friend living in Fermanagh who works for the NHS who considers herself Irish and British and she is Catholic. Maybe it's the thought of losing the NHS and her job if reunification were to happen that makes her say that? Who knows.

I don't want to portray Northern Ireland in a negative light Mr Downcow. It's has some of the most beautiful scenery on this Island. Cost of living is lower. House prices are lower in comparison to down here. You have the NHS. Most people are very friendly. I like travelling up there and meeting people from a different background to me. I just don't like those who judge me from where I come but with it's history I can't blame some for having a negative attitude either.

downcow

No football has still got problems but we are talking about them and trying to change them. Rugby eg has lots of issues which they are not talking about. Just watch the reaction on here when I bring up that the team claims to represent two countries but all the trappings around are only representative of one country. Flag, anthem, ground, etc

I continue to work to remove gstq from ni football and even those most opposed to removing do understand the issue. In the south few seem to understand how it feels for many unionists to have to stand to the SS. How would you like if the British and Irish lions played gstq and had a secret meeting of the GB players to agree that they would never again play in Dublin?

downcow

Just see this floating around social media today. Seems to put a lie to posts in this thread about OO only parading where they are not wanted

“IN RELATION TO THE PARADES COMMISSION DETERMINATION re NORTH BELFAST CENTENARY PARADE THIS SATURDAY, 2nd OCTOBER 2021

The Officers and Brethren of No. 4 District LOL Belfast condemn in the strongest possible terms the decision to ban the District’s forthcoming Centenary parade from entering the Kilcoole area of North Belfast.

By banning the procession from entering Kilcoole not only have the Commissioners displayed contempt for the traditions and heritage of our community, but they have also demonstrated their total lack of knowledge of the local demographics. This has led to immense anger amongst local residents.

The overwhelming majority of the inhabitants in Kilcoole are Protestant and Unionist, with many members of the Institution and their families living in the community. We do not claim Kilcoole as our own, recognising that there are a small number of residents from a differing tradition. However, we do expect where such a shared society exists that the traditions and values of the overwhelming majority of residents would be respected. This determination creates unnecessary community division and tension by effectively creating a ‘no go’ area for Protestants in a community where the majority would be supporters of Orange traditions and culture 

This abhorrent decision is simply wrong, defies logic and goes against natural justice. The Parades Commission, which has been populated with new Commissioners, is still basing its decisions on unfair legislation. It remains as it has from its formation an unaccountable quango which is institutionally biased. We call yet again for the Commissioners to resign, the Parades Commission to be disbanded and the relevant legislation retired.

 We would like to thank the community for the support we have received thus far and look forward to a day when we can dwell in a shared space once more”

smokie72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117966852#Comment_117966852

There are problems down here that have to be sorted. Even thought I'm a nationalist and would like to see a United Ireland or even a federal one one day I don't want a million unionists who would feel alienated either. You can argue that Northern Ireland has both the strongest British identity and also the strongest Irish as well.

I applaud the work you are doing. Of course flags, anthems are always going to stir emotions. The first time I felt genuine pride in the tricolour was during Italia 90. Because before that all I saw was the flag been used to murder and bomb innocent people up north. The same for the Union Jack been used by loyalist paramilitaries to kill Catholics. This is our recent history and it's gonna take a long time to wipe that from people's memory. It will die out out when the bitter bigoted people die out. Thank god most people under 30 now don't remember what it was like during the troubles.

I do remember God save the Queen been played at Croke Park a good few years ago now for a Ireland England game in the 6 nations. Was it 2007? When Lansdowne Road was been redeveloped. Well I hope that they do play in Dublin or Belfast in the future.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117966801#Comment_117966801

So you admit that (not for the first time) you've reacted with a typical blinkered tribal "yes but them-uns" response.

It's that kind of attitude that delays progress on REAL politics in the North.

Every single issue is unionist or nationalist and and soon as "your side" and its failings are addressed, you have to respond with a "but them uns did ..."

Not only that but you had to embellish a story from nearly 20 years ago.

It wasn't "every gaa game". It wasn't even anything to do with the GAA. There was a collection OUTSIDE a GAA ground and NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the GAA.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117966866#Comment_117966866

Unionism = everyone else is wrong.

Never gets old.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967024#Comment_117967024

It would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic.

Banning a parade has (in their words) "effectively created a no-go area for Protestants" in Kilcoole.

Bizarre stuff altogether.

Flinty997

It won't die out because they indoctrinate the next generation into the same dogma. They don't want change and they don't want to move on. They are stuck in a time machine.

In any other walk of life of some one was doing this, say at work you'd just leave them to it, and bypass them.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967069#Comment_117967069

Then we get told in the next breath that the vast majority of parades and bonfires pass off peacefully but the PC is trying to kill off Loyalist culture.

They just cannot handle living in a democracy and want the old supremacist days back again.

Junkyard Tom

Just see this floating around social media today. Seems to put a lie to posts in this thread about OO only parading where they are not wanted

Five Eighth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117966852#Comment_117966852

The Lions are a touring squad. They don't usually play matches in Dublin, London, Cardiff or Edinburgh.

Anton Rogan got plenty of stick from the 'We hate Catholics' NI supporters club. Of course, he did play his club football with Celtic.

alias no.9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964948#Comment_117964948

A couple of points here...

The IRFU have been an all island organisation since their foundation in the 19th century.

Up until the sponsorship agreement with Aviva, they played tests in other stadia around the island including Ravenhill. Typically, these were smaller matches due to the limited capacity in these other stadia but since the naming rights of the redeveloped Landsdown Road were sold to Aviva, there was a commercial agreement to host all test matches in the Aviva.

Care to correct the record on your bullshit claim?

pixelburp

Yeah I recall plenty of (admittedly low stakes) matches played at Ravenhill down the years; hadn't thought of why they might have stopped - but stands to reason the new Lansdowne involved an exclusivity clause for its resident teams. So nothing to do with the perfidious republic, and just the international language of capitalist sport.

Between this and trying to imply the GAA are a hotbed of sectarianism, I'm tiring of the the bullshít being peddled by someone deep in their bunker, so deep they just invent sins of the South rather than accept the institutional issues of their homeland, or their community. When all that's left is whataboutery equivalence, it's thin grounds for debate. A little introspection goes a long way

Would be nice to have more unionist perspectives on this thread; and wish the thread just discussed the protocol TBH, rather than biases drawn from that one visit to a single gaa ground.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967004#Comment_117967004

Wrong wrong and wrong.

fact : it was all GAA football games I have attended.

the collection was at the turnstiles- yes outside.

I used to see dubious collections in the early 80s on roads leading to Windsor a quarter of a mile from the ground, and I take responsibility as a ni fan that we need Ed to do something about it. You just want to bury your head if it’s outside the gates.

don’t know what you mean about me admitting I’m blinkered.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967182#Comment_117967182

Nonsense. The irfu formed as an amalgamation of the Northern Football Union & the Irish football union.

I haven’t time now on my phone but I’ll see can I find some evidence of the secret sectarian meeting of catholic players where they refused to play if Ireland ever played in Belfast again.

so your info is BS & BS

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967262#Comment_117967262

So what will you say if I can convince you that you are talking nonsense and that there was a sectarian meeting of catholic players pretending they were praying for the pope, and that they put the ultimatum to irfu which irfu accepted?

votecounts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117966170#Comment_117966170

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117966170#Comment_117966170

Yeah, burning a national flag is the same as collecting money. Ffs. Then again you are the same poster who compared the St. Patrick's Day Parade, an event that is celebrated world wide by all all nationalities, religions, etc to a 12th July Parade which in some cases is only done by one side to exert dominance and triumphalism. Seriously get real and live in the real world.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967475#Comment_117967475

I was countering the notion that the rugby team doesn't play In Ravenhill. It does, or at least did until Aviva had other designs. But the rugby team plays under a 4 province flag, the prevalence of tricolours at matches is not ideal I'll grant you; but if there has been a problem from the Ulster contingent I haven't seen or heard it. Not least from the Best family (am ignorant of their politics). It is nominally an all Island team. Claiming religious divisions still exist? Show those,

Digging up historical grievances (I'll take a stab at 1950s? Though I'd take up to the 70s or 80s given the mention of the pope ) Feels about right for what you're saying) though feels apt to my main problem with your perspective, especially that of your presumption I remain clouded to my country's flaws. I'm not, it's hilarious you'd assume otherwise.

you'll never find me claiming the Republic hasn't had growing pains from its inception - and I'd be the first in line to say the ROI was a flawed state from the off; being so wedded to Catholicism a deep tragedy for thousands of women and children - nevermind some spurned, amateur sports players, we have deep blots in our ledger. However, the ROI has made pains to grow out of the shadow of that regressive past, even if it's still a work in progress. The noted examples being the marriage and 8th amendment referenda the tentpole initiatives. Just this week there is talk of softening our definition of motherhood through adoption for added sensitivity. A long distance from mother and baby homes. A nation is a work in progress.

Can the north say the same? It has, of course it has - though not without resistance, be it your own abortion services for one. But you'd want to be naive to think the wounds don't still exist, the result of 100 years of institutional division still present - not least in the very subject we're supposed to be taking about. The NI Protocol. What it represents in the fears of political unionism.

alias no.9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967455#Comment_117967455

The IRFU was formed in 1879 and did not split following partition. The last Irish test match played in Ravenhill was 2007.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967580#Comment_117967580

I think it is you that had got it wrong. If you think burning a flag is comparable to collecting money for an organisation that murdered and tortured for decades and specifically collecting for 3 people who were out training farc terrorists to deal drugs and keep their boot on the necks of poor columbians. No comparison

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967587#Comment_117967587

Are you denying what I said or backing it up. I am not sure. Yes it was 1879 that they joined together.

I’m not into rugby but the rugby buffs here will know I think. There was something strange about the game you mention which was the first one since the secatarian meeting 53 years earlier. I can’t remember if they called it a B international or said it was an away game. They went to these lengths to avoid upholding the agreement to play gstq at all full internationals in Ravenhill

quite unbelievable isn’t it.

FrancieBrady

What irks belligerent Unionism about the rugby team is thousands of moderate Unionists happy to be be called Irish.

Watching all of Ulster having a good win against Zebre atm