The Irish protocol.

Junkyard Tom

They went to these lengths to avoid upholding the agreement to play gstq at all full internationals in Ravenhill

No idea if this is true or not but if they did then good on them and they should be honoured for it. Each nation has its own flags and anthems, GSTQ would have no business being played at a Ireland Rugby international to appease a few bigots who were sore about losing their dominance of the whole country. You demand GSTQ should be played because you believe Unionism has a God-given right to rule the northern part of our country. I've some news for you, it doesn't and it never did.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967391#Comment_117967391

Let me just remind you of the sequence of events here downcow.

A post claimed that bonfires with tricolours and pictures of politicians was a hate crime perpetrated by a group of bigots.

If you wanted to discuss this point (given that this is a discussion forum) you had 3 choices:

1. Ignore the post
2. Agree with the post
3. Disagree with the post and offer reasons why.

However what you chose to do outlines the type of attitude that maintains division in the North.

You decided to go full on "yeah but what about the other side"

Not only that but your point was about trying to discredit the GAA with something that happened nearly 20 years ago outside a ground where you attended your one and only match so then you claimed: "All the Gaelic football matches I have been at"

Who on earth was even discussing the GAA anyway?

When a poster can't address the point that is being made and instead can only engage in "whataboutery" and dubious claims I'm led to wonder if they have any sort of a valid argument at all.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968434#Comment_117968434

I have not demanded gstq is played. Quite the contrary and well you know it.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968741#Comment_117968741

I was highlighting the rediculous nature of the post and the accusation that everyone at bonfires were bigots. I used another rediculous post to to it. I think most people understood the point I was making.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968328#Comment_117968328

“All” haha. I have a good friend who is quite clear that he supports Leinster and couldn’t possibly support ulster as he sees it as a ‘unionist’ team and setup. I do recall the ulster fans getting their buses stoned in ulster bu fellow ulster men on the way to the European cup final.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969279#Comment_117969279

It's a long time since rugby was the preserve of Unionists in Ulster downcow. Tell your friend to get out more.

I was at that European Final as a proud Monaghan and Ulster man with quite a contingent of fellow Monaghan men and women and I know Cavan Rugby club ran a few buses too.

Rugby has gotten over the sectarian nonsense that 'Ulster' soccer hasn't tbh. It is completely absent in the game.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969302#Comment_117969302

I’m really pleased to hear that.

You may feel ‘job done’ but I have much higher expectations of ni football. My goodness you have came on a lot recently. You are comfortable with the ulster rugby ground situated in the heart of loyalist east Belfast and the abundance of red white and blue and the British war memorial taking pride of place in the ground.

I didn’t think you would be comfortable with the makeup of their boards and committeeshttps://www.ulsterrugby.com/rugby-in-ulster/ulster-branch/branch-personnel/. At a glance it is very difficult to find a catholic, anyone from the southern three counties, a woman, a black person, etc. But as long as you think they have cracked any diversity issues and job done. 🙄

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969365#Comment_117969365

Irish people have lived with a plethora of war memorials and British glorifications and homages all over Ulster and even down south downcow...we are seriously over that. We don't as a rule get agitated and enflamed by things like that unless you are deliberately taunting and demeaning.

And it's really interesting and revealing that you assume that a protestant means something nasty to a catholic or southerner. I have no idea of the political affiliations of the admin of the GAA or the FAI...do you know how abnormal that kind of stuff is?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967182#Comment_117967182

I promised to post you something about the sectarian meeting of catholic players which ensured no more games at ravenhill https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2007/feb/27/comment.gdnsport3

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969405#Comment_117969405

Of course you don’t because that would mean accountability.

it is dangerous old school stuff to say we don’t check the diversity of our organisation because we don’t notice or care.

that attitude just protects the majorities from any scrutiny. You are years behind Dark ages stuff That would be like Bbc saying we don’t check how many black people are presenters

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969443#Comment_117969443

Wait a second...you are saying that an organisation run by (you say) protestants from the Unionism tradition don't welcome black or catholic players, that it is somebody from Monaghan's issue? Really?

I am not aware of any discrimination against people in Ulster rugby, if there is, then those at the top should indeed be accountable? Have you any evidence of this discrimination...anybody getting spat at, getting bullets in the post, or has their children and partners abused?

All ears and eyes for the links downcow.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969485#Comment_117969485

This is where you and me diverge greatly. It’s probably the reason we jar so much on here.

clearly you aim to be non-sectarian and non-descriminatory, while I am anti-sectarian and anti-discriminatory

I guess you won’t even get the difference. It’s clearly why you are happy with the current state of the GAA. As long as the instances of overt racial and sectarian abuse are isolated then you think everything is honkey dorey. You don’t really care if the local tennis club is 90% Protestant while situated in a 90% catholic area as long as they don’t spit on people, put bullets in the post or racially abuse children. You simply don’t understand the impact of chill factors on minorities and how you need to really drill down into the covert stuff if you want the organisation you belong to to be truly welcoming. It’s not surprising really as you live in a place where you are a massive majority. It’s been studied and well demonstrated that when minorities are below 20% they are not noticed and covert and structural discrimination against them is not noticed. It’s why the GAA remains almost exclusively catholic and why the numbers of Protestants living in roi have been devastated since partition, dropping by approx 70%. The same would probably have happened to catholics in the north if their population had been under 20%. This is replicated in organisations and countries the world over eg First Nation Americans.

so francie (and several others on here), I recognise that you are coming from a very different mindset than me and our experiences have led us to here, so I apologise for being hard on you at times. It is not entirely your fault that you do not take an anti-discriminatory position - but now that this is pointed out to you, it is your responsibility to reflect and shift. Minorities need support, protection and encouragement - it’s not enough to say that ‘our door is open to everyone’

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969701#Comment_117969701

There's a great degree of projecting issues in NI to Ireland in your posts, Downcow. You assume that because the GAA under-represents the Protestant community in NI that it is the case in the other 26 GAA counties on the island (never mind London/New York).

I'll share an article with you, one which acknowledges that historically the ties between the GAA and the Catholic Church were too strong, but which contextualises it. It also demonstrates that contrary to your point, the GAA has made great inroads to move away from that; moving towards anti-discriminatory rather than non-discriminatory to use your own terminology. While like everything else, there is still work to be done, your self congratulatory back-patting while pointing the finger at the GAA just isn't reflective of the reality of the progress made. A great deal of work remains for the sport in the North, but the issues you may have experienced there aren't reflected across the rest of the island.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40202792.html

It may be difficult for you to accept that the problems we had in NI aren't always directly supplanted elsewhere on the island as it cuts out about 3/4 of your attempts to justify or explain away Protestant misrule in the North.

Perhaps we have a responsibility to be more proactively anti-discriminatory precisely because our society was more discriminatory, and I apply that to both communities while acknowledging that while discrimination from the Unionist side was historically more impactful due to power dynamics, there was just as much from the Nationalist side, at least in attitudes.

pixelburp

If anything, the chatter about the GAA as somehow bias against a minority strikes as ... misplaced and more than a little archaic in perspective, given how much the player pool - especially in the youth ranks - has visibly changed in the Republic. Visit any underage game at the weekend, especially in urban areas, and the players on the pitch will be a patchwork of ethnicities. Much of the marketing, including tangential stuff form sponsors, emphasise how inclusive the sport is now.

Maybe in the North there's some lopsided representation down religious lines but ultimately the question has become a touch irrelevant. White protestants aren't where the social concerns of inclusivity exist anymore; whether that's unfair or not is up to the reader, and way beyond the topic.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969853#Comment_117969853

I don’t know why you are misreading my posts. I continually say we have lots more to do and I specifically name my beloved NI football team where a lot has been achieved and more needs done.

for you to suggest you are now ok in the south because most unionists have left is a bit dubious.

take a look at your football supporters, many of whom prefer to wear Celtic jerseys than roi jerseys, Sing nasty songs admiring some of your players for hating for all things British and booing any rangers players who are in opposing teams. You won’t have to deal with the problem we had about a nasty rump of fans abusing a Celtic player in our team, as pigs will fly before you have a rangers player in yours.

some of your post is good, but you still are not recognising chill factors against my community in you perfect state and in the GAA

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969890#Comment_117969890

.....you did read my post, right?

Firstly, I was responding to your comments on the GAA, and replied with comments regarding the GAA. Trying to pivot into a conversation about soccer is blatant deflection.

Secondly...did you read the article at all?! How the f*ck you got, 'we're OK in the south because Unionists left' from an article specifically discussing GAA from a Protestant perspective in a post where I state that a great deal of work remains to be done, I have no idea.

Your response reads like you have barely read my post, certainly not read the linked article and just reflexively started into a, 'but Themuns' rant.....par for the course in any discussion with you I suppose.

Perhaps instead of responding to this post you could actually read my previous one and respond to it in a considered manner.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969701#Comment_117969701

What a pile of self serving nonsense.

We were talking about rugby and you were asked to link to instances of discriminations carried out by what you say is a Protestant/Unionist centric administration.

Are you going to do that or not?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969954#Comment_117969954

You are ducking and diving.

I doubt there will be many cases of bullets in post or shouting abuse at black players in Ulster rugby, much more likely to talk about the jolly rotters over a g&t in private 🙂. Sure it’s all ok then. I think most people can see through your - ‘take the spec out of your brothers eye before removing the beam from your own’

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969991#Comment_117969991

I'm 'ducking and diving'? 😁😁

So you rely on a prejudice about people (G&T sipping etc) to have a go at me. Brilliant!

A supporter of a sporting organisation riven with a history of sectarianism born in religious and political favoritism is going to look down his nose at other organisations dealing with common problems to every sporting organisation in the world. That's fecking brilliant to see too.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970024#Comment_117970024

More ducking and diving.

I have been very clear that there are lots of issues with ni football which is being actively worked on. It’s paying of.

There is zero question that out of any GAA county team, ulster rugby team and ni football team, by a very very long distance the most diverse is the ni football team. Also the most diverse supporters represented at games, the most diverse in colour, and the only one introducing full time professional to their entire women’s team.

Facts are a real pain in the arse, aren’t they francie 🤔

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970223#Comment_117970223

Zero question?

You were asked a question and you ran into the familiar bolthole.

Where are there similar discriminatory and sectarian instances to spitting on people, sending bullets in the post and abusing partners and children of players in Ulster rugby downcow?

Ulster rugby is light years ahead of NI soccer = fact.

Put that in your G&T and drink it! 😉

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970290#Comment_117970290

You have not yet travelled to a place where you can even understand the points I am making.

I presented some current facts for you and you are harking back a generation.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970346#Comment_117970346

You presented ZERO facts to support your theories n Ulster and Irish rugby.

You deflected in a fairly classic way.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970223#Comment_117970223

GAA would more diverse in gender than football.

It is obvious why football would be more diverse than GAA or rugby in terms of colour. Football is a world sport. It is huge in every continent. GAA is virtually not played out side of Ireland. So foreigners here are more likely to play and follow a sport they are familiar with like football. To try and use this as proof that the GAA don't welcome all or have xenophobia culture is very disingenuous.

pixelburp

This whole thread has become a disingenuous series of goalpost shifts. So far from the topic of the thread as to be on the horizon line. I give up anyway as it's dispiriting watching someone "debate" in this fashion. It's a little unfair to have one user speak for an entire community but equally, the manner of defence is a sequence of "yeah, whatabout...", trotting out ancient sins and questionable anecdotes as absolutes.

If it ever returns to discussing ... Yah know, the NI Protocol, I'll be amazed.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970606#Comment_117970606

Diversions happen when there is nothing happening re: the Protocol.

And there is nothing happening, despite much angsting and gnashing of teeth.

What is becoming crystal clear is the bullet NI dodged with the help of Dublin. Moderate Unionism will be asking who really has their interests at heart. They may never give voice to it, but the answer is blatantly obvious.

votecounts

Going back to the topic of the protocol, you would think that the Unionist community in Ni would be delighted as it has saved them from petrol shortages, food shortages, etc but they'd rather have links with Britain rather than improve their economy. It must be the only place on earth where the economy, housing, healthcare are not primary issues for the electorate. At least some parties have their focus on the right issues. Hey continue with your marches and protests.

downcow

Identity etc is pretty important the world over as far as I see. Whether it is brits wanting brexit, Irish wanting independence, Scots wanting independence, etc, etc, etc. To think that the ira or Uvf or etc were only about healthcare etc is naive.

this thread has gone all over the place but it adds to the evidence that there is much more at play than economic well-being.

I don’t know anyone who would give up their identity for money.

protocol is much more than about the economy. I can’t speak for nationalists or all unionists but the unionists I speak to don’t like the disruption of goods moving within the Uk. Would we be happy to be a little worse off (not that I think that would be the case) to protect our full place in the union? Yes

Speedline

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970987#Comment_117970987

Its a trade deal ffs. You have been told this repeatedly.

Would I be happy to have a UI if it meant not being able to get custard creams? Absolutely.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970987#Comment_117970987

You are having to 'ate a bit of grass' as my granny would say. Nationalists/Irish identities have had to put up with far worse 'separation/disruption' in the 100 years of partition.

Unionism as a whole backs those who wanted Brexit. As you have been told again and again, on your own heads be it.

Brexit is causing the disruption not the Protocol.

As seen with shortages in Britain, the Protocol mitigates the effects of Brexit in Ireland. You are not going to be allowed to disadvantage all just so you can feel more British.