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Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information


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Nightvision law/license/legality

2

Comments

  • #32
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Obviously not when you don't realise the difference in licensing between a hand held unit capable of being mounted to a firearm and dedicated scope. One requires no authorisation/authorisation the other a license application.
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  • #33
    Richard308
    Registered Users Posts: 1,150 ✭✭✭Richard308


    Cass wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, have you already got one [NV scope], or are you buying for one for this exercise?

    Borrowing a night vision from my friend. Going to say I just want it to check livestock


  • #34
    cookimonster
    Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    Firstly did I waste my time putting up stuff like this -

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=117014652&postcount=4

    The section in the above post re legal information is not makey uppy stuff ...this is direct paste and clip from various legitimate sources that are stakeholders in the system.

    On a point that is being argued here re - authorised / authorisation, please read the back of your firearms certificate, in fact read the your firearm certificate grant notice and even the accompanying document that holds your firearm certificate.... there is no mention of license.

    I qoute (again no makey uppy excrement here).....

    'You are hereby authorised'

    The point being is that your firaearm is authorised, as is your moderator, in this case with the addition of 's' on your certificate. The break down here is that the proof of authorisation for telescopic sights ( which by now every dog in the street knows, mean NV scopes) is not included on your firearms certificate even though like your firearm or moderator requires authorisation.

    So if any of you do want to apply for authorisation for a 'telescopic sight' (Commissioner’s Guidelines 2018) I would like to remind you of the current procedures -
    A subsequent application for a silencer or telescopic sight will require the applicant to re-apply on a new application form FCA 1 and will require the full €80 fee if the application is successful.
    (Commissioner’s Guidelines 2018)

    Re hand held viewers, monocoulrs etc these do not need authorization no matter what the blurb says in the pamphlet or website as they are not telescopic sights by any stretch of the imagination. However something like a Pard nv007 is designed primarily as an add on to exsisting scopes to give a day scope NV capability but has the added advantage of being able to be used as a handheld unit. On the other hand the various NV telescopic sights on sale are primarily manufactured for mounting on firearms. The design, ergonomics and practical application and purpose are for firearms mounting. The use of dedicated NV scopes as hand held scanners is about as practical as gaffa taping a hand held thermal imager to a rifle receiver.


  • #35
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Rows Grower wrote: »
    Please stop, just stop with this ridiculous carry on.
    You're the one that started this.
    It was you who stated in this thread that you are not familiar with the various models of Thermal/NV/IR scopes.
    The brands, makes and models.
    You've now gone from stating they all need a licence
    Thats a lie.
    to some need a licence application.
    Just one type.
    You're all over the place,
    As i said above you seem to not be able to understand the difference between the two types of authorisation/license.
    it's hard enough trying to follow stuff that you have edited,
    Only editing was to fix improperly quoted posts. Its in the reason for editing tab.
    moved around or just completely changed without this carry on.
    Are you accusing me of altering posts to suit my view point?
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  • #36
    reniwren
    Registered Users Posts: 341 ✭✭reniwren


    Aren't laws different for night vision in UK anyway so Amazon would be free to sell away.

    This thread is reminding me of the time I walked into a dealers and the guy at the counter was asking if the scope came pre zeroed


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  • #37
    kirving
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭kirving


    Just as side note the main discussion, which I hope some might find interesting.

    I work in camera manufacturing, and occasionally deal with projects which involve the latest NIR and MWIR (thermal) sensors, so I was keeping half an eye on this topic as I'm involved in very similar stuff.

    There are very strict regulations around both the supply of the MWIR sensors within Europe, and also the hardware itself, to ensure that they can only be used with the original screen supplied by the manufacturer, in that the sensors cannot be repurposed by people, organisation or countries without a license for them.

    Sending European manufactured sensors to the likes of China I believe can cause big logistical issue. Just thought it was an interesting point.


  • #38
    Paddyviking
    Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭Paddyviking


    Hi All
    Has anyone got any documentation/authorisation to have/use for example a Digex or Thermion in this country.
    Just asking for a friend

    PV


  • #39
    Richard308
    Registered Users Posts: 1,150 ✭✭✭Richard308


    cookimonster wrote: »
    Firstly did I waste my time putting up stuff like this -

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=117014652&postcount=4

    The section in the above post re legal information is not makey uppy stuff ...this is direct paste and clip from various legitimate sources that are stakeholders in the system.

    On a point that is being argued here re - authorised / authorisation, please read the back of your firearms certificate, in fact read the your firearm certificate grant notice and even the accompanying document that holds your firearm certificate.... there is no mention of license.

    I qoute (again no makey uppy excrement here).....

    'You are hereby authorised'

    The point being is that your firaearm is authorised, as is your moderator, in this case with the addition of 's' on your certificate. The break down here is that the proof of authorisation for telescopic sights ( which by now every dog in the street knows, mean NV scopes) is not included on your firearms certificate even though like your firearm or moderator requires authorisation.

    So if any of you do want to apply for authorisation for a 'telescopic sight' (Commissioner’s Guidelines 2018) I would like to remind you of the current procedures -



    Re hand held viewers, monocoulrs etc these do not need authorization no matter what the blurb says in the pamphlet or website as they are not telescopic sights by any stretch of the imagination. However something like a Pard nv007 is designed primarily as an add on to exsisting scopes to give a day scope NV capability but has the added advantage of being able to be used as a handheld unit. On the other hand the various NV telescopic sights on sale are primarily manufactured for mounting on firearms. The design, ergonomics and practical application and purpose are for firearms mounting. The use of dedicated NV scopes as hand held scanners is about as practical as gaffa taping a hand held thermal imager to a rifle receiver.

    Thank you for clearing that up. About the authorization as opposed to license. Saved me the awkward conversation


  • #40
    cookimonster
    Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    Just a quick point here -

    The Pard NV008P as seen in the Amazon site page makes scant reference to this being a telescopic sight -
    https://go.skimresources.com/?id=61111X1383796&isjs=1&jv=15.1.0-stackpath&sref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boards.ie%2Fvbulletin%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D2058184520%26page%3D4&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.co.uk%2FPard-NV008P-Digital-Night-Binoculars%2Fdp%2FB08L85RXVF%2Fref%3Dmp_s_a_1_3%3Fdchild%3D1%26keywords%3Dpard%26qid%3D1620569185%26sr%3D8-3&xguid=01EDV8AQG42QSJR14ZXYBD6ST2&xs=1&xtz=-60&xuuid=b3d02bdf7252d1fc0789ad9708227d82&xjsf=other_click__contextmenu%20%5B0%5D

    Yet if you do a google search for the same item nine (9) web sites list it as a scope / rifle scope with only Amazon skirting around it's true design -
    'Pard NV008 Digital Infrared Night Vision 200m 1080P Night Vision Infrared IR Camera HD Digital Night Vision Equipment for Hunting Safety'

    'It is suitable for hunting and exploring wild, safety and surveillance, camping fun, exploring caves, night navigation, night fishing and boating, observation of wildlife, search and rescue, night watching, bird watching, landscape.'


    'You can put it on for target shooting, etc.'



  • #41
    cookimonster
    Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    Richard308 wrote: »
    Thank you for clearing that up. About the authorization as opposed to license. Saved me the awkward conversation

    Don't twist my words - you need authorisation for all three items - rifles, moderators and telescopic sights. If individuals wish to use the words license or authorization, its semantics. In this case they mean one and the same.

    'He says you need a license for NV rifle scope' ... yes that's correct, you do need authorisation for a NV rifle scope.

    'He says you need authorisation for NV rifle scope' ... yes that's correct, you do need a license for a NV rifle scope.

    The above statements are one and the same.

    The fact is and I refer back to my post you quoted there are no licenses, there are only firearm certificates. The authorisation is what makes it legal. If your authorisation is revoked or modified that little yellow card means nothing regardless of the expiry date.


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  • #42
    cookimonster
    Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    Paddyviking wrote: »
    Hi All
    Has anyone got any documentation/authorisation to have/use for example a Digex or Thermion in this country.
    Just asking for a friend

    PV

    These are dedicated NV scopes and therefore need appropriate authorization / licensing as posted here-

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=117014652&postcount=4

    Also they are illegal in any circumstances for uses in deer stalking


  • #43
    Richard308
    Registered Users Posts: 1,150 ✭✭✭Richard308


    cookimonster wrote: »
    Don't twist my words - you need authorisation for all three items - rifles, moderators and telescopic sights. If individuals wish to use the words license or authorization, its semantics. In this case they mean one and the same.

    'He says you need a license for NV rifle scope' ... yes that's correct, you do need authorisation for a NV rifle scope.

    'He says you need authorisation for NV rifle scope' ... yes that's correct, you do need a license for a NV rifle scope.

    The above statements are one and the same.

    The fact is and I refer back to my post you quoted there are no licenses, there are only firearm certificates. The authorisation is what makes it legal. If your authorisation is revoked or modified that little yellow card means nothing regardless of the expiry date.

    Point taken, just someone was claiming owning it without any firearm required a firearms licence and they were firearms as defined.

    My point was you needed an authorization to put it on your firearm.


  • #44
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    reniwren wrote: »
    Aren't laws different for night vision in UK anyway so Amazon would be free to sell away.

    This thread is reminding me of the time I walked into a dealers and the guy at the counter was asking if the scope came pre zeroed

    Yup, they don't make a fuss about them on a firearm for a start. As it is a weapon's sight or capable of being used as one, Amazon.uk or anyone else in the UK for that matter won't export it to the ROI either without Home office clearence.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #45
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Richard308 wrote: »
    Point taken, just someone was claiming owning it without any firearm required a firearms licence and they were firearms as defined.
    They are, contrary to your opinion.
    Richard308 wrote: »
    Indeed, it’s not classed as a firearm, .
    You use an FCA1 to apply for permission to own/possess it the same as with a firearm. It has its own box on the FCA1 under section 3.2 as described earlier.
    My point was you needed an authorization to put it on your firearm.
    Nope, that is what you changed the topic to. A matter of semantics. Your original point was they are not firearms. When i pointed out they were classed as firearms, the same as a gun or suppressor, you claimed the legislation and Commissioner's guidelines were wrong and that is was not a firearm:

    Legislation:

    Section 4(g)(i) of the 1990 offensive weapons act
    Cass wrote: »
    4.—(1) In the Firearms Acts, 1925 to 1990, “firearm” means—

    (g)(i) telescope sights with a light beam, or telescope sights with an electronic light amplification device or an infra-red device, designed to be fitted to a firearm specified in paragraph (a), (b), (c) or (e), and

    Commissioner's guidleines:
    TELESCOPIC SIGHTS
    In the Firearms Act 1925 to 2009, the definition of a firearm additionally includes: 'telescopic sights with a light beam, or telescope sights with an electronic amplification device or an infra-red device, designed to befitted to afirearm .... ' Such devices would fall into three broad categories as follows and again an applicant must satisfy the issuing person that he/she has demonstrated 'good reason' to acquire the sight:
    • (i) An Active Night Sight - this device emits an invisible light beam which illuminates objects and would assist with identification of objects.
    • (ii) A Passive Night Sight - this device does not emit any beam but amplifies any ambient light (from stars or moon) which enables objects to be distinguished and identified.
    • (iii) Thermal Image Sight - this device resolves the heat signature given offby warm objects and enables identification of objects.
    When an applicant is applying for a firearm certificate or its renewal, the application should include whether or not a silencer or telescopic sights are sought for that particular firearm. A subsequent application for a silencer or telescopic sight will require the applicant to re-apply on a new application form FCA 1 and will require the full €80 fee if the application is successful. So it is vitally important, that where applicable, new applicants or applicants applying to renew their firearm certificates ensure that their application/renewal form includes reference to a silencer/telescopic sight. All firearm certificates which include authorisation to hold a silencer, must include details of the authorisation for the silencer in respect of the firearm by inclusion of the letter'S' on the firearms card.
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  • #46
    Richard308
    Registered Users Posts: 1,150 ✭✭✭Richard308


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Yup, they don't make a fuss about them on a firearm for a start. As it is a weapon's sight or capable of being used as one, Amazon.uk or anyone else in the UK for that matter won't export it to the ROI either without Home office clearence.

    Amazon clearly do. I’ve put it in the basket to test


  • #47
    cookimonster
    Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    Richard308 wrote: »
    Point taken, just someone was claiming owning it without any firearm required a firearms licence and they were firearms as defined.

    My point was you needed an authorization to put it on your firearm.


    I will reinforce the written word -
    In the Firearms Act 1925 to 2009, the definition of a firearm additionally includes:

    ‘telescopic sights with a light beam, or telescope sights with an electronic amplification device or an infra-red device, designed to be fitted to a firearm …. ‘

    Such devices would fall into three broad categories as follows and again an applicant must satisfy the issuing person that he/she has demonstrated ‘good reason’ to acquire the sight:

    I can't make that any clearer then what it says there.

    At one stage you could buy a moderator no bother, now you need proof of authorisation. Whether or not you can purchase NV add ons or dedicated sights over the counter or via the internet is irrelevant. The fact is you are required to have authorisation for said item. It is up to the individual to be compliant and as in many sections of the law ignorance is no defense.


  • #48
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Richard308 wrote: »
    Amazon clearly do. I’ve put it in the basket to test

    Try completing the sale with an ROI address?:) Don't worry you won't be 800 quid down either...
    It even says it in the small print bottom right of the page it's not shippable to outside the UK.

    https://www.scottcountry.co.uk/news/article/Licensing-and-export-controls-thermal-nightvision/

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #49
    Richard308
    Registered Users Posts: 1,150 ✭✭✭Richard308


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Try completing the sale with an ROI address?:) Don't worry you won't be 800 quid down either...
    It even says it in the small print bottom right of the page it's not shippable to outside the UK.

    https://www.scottcountry.co.uk/news/article/Licensing-and-export-controls-thermal-nightvision/

    110% you can buy it.
    This one. Try yourself
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pard-NV008P-Digital-Night-Binoculars/dp/B08L85RXVF/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=pard&qid=1620586584&sr=8-3


  • #50
    cookimonster
    Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Try completing the sale with an ROI address?:) Don't worry you won't be 800 quid down either...
    It even says it in the small print bottom right of the page it's not shippable to outside the UK.

    https://www.scottcountry.co.uk/news/article/Licensing-and-export-controls-thermal-nightvision/

    Been there, done that (twice, once with another company) and I can absolutely, positively tell you they won't sell you a NV scope. I got as far as paying for one and got a refund.
    Tried my Northern Ireland address and that was a no go as well.

    Look at their terms and conditions they qoute international treaties (?) and even though I asked them to direct me to the relevant license as quoted by them, for export they weren't interested.


  • #51
    GolfVI
    Registered Users Posts: 182 ✭✭GolfVI


    cookimonster wrote: »
    Been there, done that (twice, once with another company) and I can absolutely, positively tell you they won't sell you a NV scope. I got as far as paying for one and got a refund.
    Tried my Northern Ireland address and that was a no go as well.

    Look at there terms and conditions the qoute international treaties (?) and even though I asked them to direct me to the relevant license for export they weren't interested.

    Just to add to this,

    A couple months ago I contacted opticwarehouse based in the UK in regards to ordering a normal scope and getting it shipped over. I was unsure if I needed an import license or end user agreement.

    The company replied stating they had no problem shipping over a normal scope, however they would not ship a NV or Thermal optic without the correct licence.


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  • #52
    Mr.Sir
    Site Banned Posts: 36 ✭Mr.Sir


    Re-reg

    Deleted.


  • #53
    Rows Grower
    Registered Users Posts: 7,816 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    Richard308 wrote: »
    110% you can buy it.
    This one. Try yourself
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pard-NV008P-Digital-Night-Binoculars/dp/B08L85RXVF/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=pard&qid=1620586584&sr=8-3

    It's coming up 7 in stock and I can order for delivery to my registered address here in Kerry.

    Usually if an order can't be delivered to Ireland for any reason it clearly states that.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



  • #54
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    GolfVI wrote: »
    A couple months ago I contacted opticwarehouse based in the UK in regards to ordering a normal scope and getting it shipped over. I was unsure if I needed an import license or end user agreement.
    I've imported about half a dozen scopes from the UK and all that was ever needed was an end user. The guy, from Sightron, told me its because they were over 4 power as anything under that doesn't need and End User.

    Has that been changed/removed since Brexit, or did they tell you?
    The company replied stating they had no problem shipping over a normal scope, however they would not ship a NV or Thermal optic without the correct licence.
    Good info, thanks.
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  • #55
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Richard308 wrote: »
    110% you can buy it.
    This one. Try yourself
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pard-NV008P-Digital-Night-Binoculars/dp/B08L85RXVF/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=pard&qid=1620586584&sr=8-3




    Technical Details
    Sport Hunting
    Brand Pard
    Manufacturer Pard
    ASIN B08L85RXVF
    Additional Information
    Delivery information: We cannot deliver certain products outside mainland UK ( Details). We will only be able to confirm if this product can be delivered to your chosen address when you enter your delivery address at checkout.

    Tried it on three different scopes two dedicated rifle and on the previous gen Pard,same reply...Does not ship outside the UK.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #56
    Richard308
    Registered Users Posts: 1,150 ✭✭✭Richard308


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Technical Details
    Sport Hunting
    Brand Pard
    Manufacturer Pard
    ASIN B08L85RXVF
    Additional Information
    Delivery information: We cannot deliver certain products outside mainland UK ( Details). We will only be able to confirm if this product can be delivered to your chosen address when you enter your delivery address at checkout.

    Tried it on three different scopes two dedicated rifle and on the previous gen Pard,same reply...Does not ship outside the UK.

    Oh for god sake I just ordered the pard. Bloody hell, try and cancel it now. Can you explain to my wife if I can’t why I was even looking at night vision scopes, never mind buying one. 😂


  • #57
    GolfVI
    Registered Users Posts: 182 ✭✭GolfVI


    I didn’t need one, I was just ordering a normal scope so had it shipped over no problem. They just stated they don’t ship over NV or Thermal.Must have just been a reply they send to anyone asking a similar question


  • #58
    GolfVI
    Registered Users Posts: 182 ✭✭GolfVI


    Cass wrote: »
    I've imported about half a dozen scopes from the UK and all that was ever needed was an end user. The guy, from Sightron, told me its because they were over 4 power as anything under that doesn't need and End User.

    Has that been changed/removed since Brexit, or did they tell you?

    Good info, thanks.

    This was a couple months before Brexit so not sure if things changed. It was a 6-24x44 Hawke scope, ordered, shipped and delivered without any hassle.


  • #59
    tudderone
    Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Ryan air flight over, taxi to the shop and buy in person (post covid lunacy that is).


  • #60
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Rows Grower wrote: »
    If you read the text that is in red in your post that in no way says they do not ship outside the UK.

    What's happening is when I hit the link I already have a business account registered with them so they immediately warn me if the item I am looking at will not be shipped to Ireland and that Pard 008 can be at my door on 12-13th May not a bother.

    If you open an account and put in your address it will show you delivery dates.

    Well you must have some strange account with them, because when I put it in with delivery to the ROI it comes up at the prepayment details We cannot ship this to your adderss,etc,etc...

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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  • #61
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    tudderone wrote: »
    Ryan air flight over, taxi to the shop and buy in person (post covid lunacy that is).

    Just order the previous model from Amazon.de,without all the hassle about having a reticle function inbuilt into it at 300 euros cheaper,and buy a few shims and a clamp mount and carry on without red flagging yourself?:P

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



This discussion has been closed.
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