Teenagers with no value for life and no care for repercussions - **Read OP**

EddieN75

11112 wrote: »

This is how I handled it with the guards. First I went straight to the guards, confessed everything and apologised. Because of this and no past offences the guard was willing to give me a caution. The mother wouldn't accept this and the guard said we have to take a long statement and send it to the DPP with a recommendation of a caution, I agreed to this.

Then the other side refused to come in and give their statement, they kept making appointments and not showing up. They basically wound down the clock to save themselves. The guard knew this and at the end of the 6 months limit he had the option of calling me in and giving me the caution or just letting it slip. He let it slip

The Garda knew you were in the right. Probably would have done the same thing himself.
And did anything happen to them for hitting you in the face with stones?

11112

EddieN75 wrote: »

The Garda knew you were in the right. Probably would have done the same thing himself.
And did anything happen to them for hitting you in the face with stones?

Nothing happened , the girl even avoided making a statement to the gardai. They kept making appointments and not turning up. The mother said it was an "accident" on the radio, a detached vitreous and 6 months failing to give a Garda statement says it wasn't an accident.

ThunbergsAreGo

KeepItLight wrote: »

While there are definitely some generational issues, there's also plenty of cases where its just some inherently nasty little thug, who would be that way regardless. I know several lovely families with a black sheep scrote amongst them & it isn't the parents fault.

They could not let them out?

They could try being aware of where their kids are

ThunbergsAreGo

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Yeah but when people start going on about deducting their dole, I'd wager those train kids are from Donaghmede or Kilbarrack or somewhere around here and everyone seems to work in these areas.
It's not always down to bad parenting it's just this culture of mad-bastardism and general gurrier carry on that we seem to be fond of in Ireland.

I work with a woman from Donaghmede, she's says on her street, only two families work. Bag eggs/areas everywhere though

EddieN75

11112 wrote: »

Nothing happened , the girl even avoided making a statement to the gardai. They kept making appointments and not turning up. The mother said it was an "accident" on the radio, a detached vitreous and 6 months failing to give a Garda statement says it wasn't an accident.

That's shocking. Imagine what sort of dirt bag goes around throwing stones at children in a playground.

These yokes should be living in tents on a camp with high steel fences. Away from normal society.
Sterilise them all too

KeepItLight

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

They could not let them out?

They could try being aware of where their kids are

you're assuming these kids listen to their parents. a single mom isn't going to be able to stop a 6ft 16-year lad

don't get me wrong, I'm all for harsh punitive measures. But not for parents, just the actual criminals themselves.

11112

EddieN75 wrote: »

That's shocking. Imagine what sort of dirt bag goes around throwing stones at children in a playground.

These yokes should be living in tents on a camp with high steel fences. Away from normal society.
Sterilise them all too

They were up on a 8 ft platform firing the stones downwards. The extra height gave them more speed. They though they had some protection too as the only way up was a rope ladder that only kids can climb. An adult can't climb it as when you put your feet on it they both go forward.

thegetawaycar

11112 wrote: »

Nothing happened , the girl even avoided making a statement to the gardai. They kept making appointments and not turning up. The mother said it was an "accident" on the radio, a detached vitreous and 6 months failing to give a Garda statement says it wasn't an accident.

Was that story covered in the media? Nearly sure I read/heard it before.

This here does show the issue and solutions.
The parents going to bat for their scum kids, I've seen this happen in Garda stations, going in screaming to get little scrote out of the station, claiming brutality, camera phones out, the guards should be given permission to open up the baton on anyone acting like that in the station.

The kid got a few slaps and won't be going back acting the scrote as they now see consequences. This is why they usually are in big groups, catch one on their own and they'll **** themselves, in big groups they see no consequences. I've already seen in my area that local parents approached scrote kids and got abuse thrown at them. 2 weeks later a large group of parents went to the same scrote kids got numerous apologies, promises to cop on etc...

The gards have no power and if they even can do anything the judiciary let them off with a slap on the wrist. This will lead to vigilantism and then things will get worse.

kapisko1PL

Nothing is ever going to change and as a foreigner it hurts me to say this. I came here in 2006 and a lot of people would probably tell me to f*ck off since this is not my country and not to get involved but as a foreigner who cannot see any other options beyond Ireland it's really something which would have to be tackled very soon or this is going to grow worse.

Where I am from you would never see his sort of behaviour from the youth. You'd never see the youth intimidating the Gardai or tell them to f*ck off. There's somewhat a different attitude towards the authority there. Not so much of respect but more of a judiciary fear and consequences. As much as I'd hate Ireland become a police state I'd very much welcome a modern approach to policing and a complete judiciary reform in this country.

micah537

Vasectomy and tubal ligation should be offered for free along with €20,000 for taking up the option. Offer it to everyone regardless of their income, provided they have less the two kids.



This will possibly have a slight effect on reducing the population which is becoming unsustainable, and in the long term reduce potentially bad parents from having kids.


Current children's allowance is €140 I think per month which is over €30,000 in 18 years not taking any future raises into account.



Sure it won't solve any short term problems but in 10-15years we should see a positive out come. I could see plenty of people taking up this option.



Unfortunately the smarter and more affluent people have less children than people in hardship, leading to more children born who will not have the advantages of higher education or self believe and end up like their parents. (I know that's a major generalisation that won't always be true).

FileNotFound

I would say education and opportunity are the best things to reduce family size.

All the so called posh south dublin will be majority 2 child families, the reason given is generally because more than 2 is unnaffordable. When people say they cannot afford more than 2 they are not thinking babies but long term, childcare, schools, university, standard of living, ensuring children get the best they can.

This mindset seems non existant in the larger families in disadvantaged areas, not the lack of caring for their kids but the overall reality that having 3 or 4 means you can only give less to each.


Now driving education and opportunity is a right conundrum, we already have free education, grants so on and so on.

Strumms

mrslancaster wrote: »

Unfortunately a lot of young thugs have a lot of role models in their communities. Older thugs, drug dealers, those involved in robbery & fraud who they see getting away with crimes & no consequences.

Edit...or worse, actually profiting from crime.

If it’s demonstrated to a young certain type of person, that they can profit from crime, without consequences, without deterrent... they may follow the lead that is set.

On the other hand, if they see their say cousin, commits robbery, assaults etc. but is apprehended, charged, convicted... jailed can’t get a job on release, low life.... justice system is being successful..

Justice system stops that role model tag...

KeepItLight

family size has zero correlation with propensity for crime

FileNotFound

KeepItLight wrote: »

family size has zero correlation with propensity for crime

I suppose crime is more prevalent in disadvantaged areas and larger family size is also more prevalent in these areas no?

I know its not a simple big family makes criminals but in urban areas they do coincide, then again there may be increased broken families, less opportunity, poorer education, greater negative influences etc. etc.

Jeremy Sproket

Mandatory national service for boys and girls to be performed when they turn 18.

Bring in mandatory sentencing whereby if you are found guilty of a certain crime you must serve a specific sentence. No leniency for rubbish like "hard upbringing" or the usual reduction in punishment for female offenders.

micah537

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

Mandatory national service for boys and girls to be performed when they turn 18.

Plenty of us are doing fine without wasting a year or two in National Service. Not all off the lads I went to secondary school with who joined the FCA back then are upstanding citizens these days, so what advantage is the National Service going to be?



It's up to parents to parent not the army.

KeepItLight

FileNotFound wrote: »

I suppose crime is more prevalent in disadvantaged areas and larger family size is also more prevalent in these areas no?

I know its not a simple big family makes criminals but in urban areas they do coincide, then again there may be increased broken families, less opportunity, poorer education, greater negative influences etc. etc.

Correlation was the wrong term to have used, causation is what was meant, and large families definitely do not cause a higher chance of criminal behaviour. Just look back at previous generations when families were much larger on average.

piplip87

Time to start taking kids of bad parents. Too much of this scumbaggery is handed down from generation to generation.

XVII

kapisko1PL wrote: »

Where I am from you would never see his sort of behaviour from the youth. You'd never see the youth intimidating the Gardai or tell them to f*ck off. There's somewhat a different attitude towards the authority there. Not so much of respect but more of a judiciary fear and consequences. As much as I'd hate Ireland become a police state I'd very much welcome a modern approach to policing and a complete judiciary reform in this country.

so much this.

it's especially so wild when you are coming from abroad and see this. It's actually unbelievable how bad it is over here.

wicklowstevo

biko wrote: »

It's tricky.

In Sweden (referenced above in thread) a 16yo and his mates were harassing a 68yo woman and eventually burned her house down and killed her.
The 16yo says it was unintentional to start such a big fire, and perhaps it was.

Should he be charged with murder and have that over his head the rest of his life?

He needs to pay, and pay dearly, but how?

it should hang over him the rest of his life regardless , that is a normal human reaction.
not not being so is part of the issue , lack of responsibility or even the expectation of responsibility

Thelonious Monk

XVII wrote: »

so much this.

it's especially so wild when you are coming from abroad and see this. It's actually unbelievable how bad it is over here.

Apparently it's the same everywhere in Europe, according to people in this thread, but I've never seen kids like we have anywhere else, maybe in the UK as I lived in a pretty dodge area. My brother used to go out with a Brazilian girl who lived in inner city Dublin and she couldn't get over how horrible the local kids were, they're a different breed.

AllForIt

1. Witholding identity of juvenile criminals and their parents/guardians reduced to 10yo.
2. Hefty fines or social welfare cuts* to parents in the case of anti-social/intimidation incidents.
3. Youth prisions from 12yo upwards. Structred in exactly the same way as adult prisions.

4. Get rid of politians who blame youth crime on disadvanged areas - deprevation - inequaity


*most people who are already in social houseing could live on have the dole they get. Penalties could range from the amount cut, to the duration, to permanant.

5. A drastic reduction in child allowance from 2 children upwards. Just wear hand-me-downs like I had to and stop throwing your used child buggy into the canal just cuz want a new one every year.

Ronaldinho

FileNotFound wrote: »

A truly hard and horrible beating would soon teach some manners...

I am at the point where I feel pain is the only true teacher that will work for some of these, pain and if they don't learn even more pain.

You think that, but in reality it would just turn them into worse ***k ups

Oranage2

I'm not sure cutting the dole would work, usually these little scumbags have no respect for their mothers anyway, and even at the ages of 11-12 they're too old to start respecting their mother who probably all her life also made bad choices.

Oranage2

Oranage2 wrote: »

I'm not sure cutting the dole would work, usually these little scumbags have no respect for their mothers anyway, and even at the ages of 11-12 they're too old to start respecting their mother who probably all her life also made bad choices.

Theres no evidence at all that these guys were all from deprived areas, particularly the Malahide incident which could have been locals.

They were chasing a guy after all, but did they do that across Dublin?

biko wrote: »

Should he be charged with murder and have that over his head the rest of his life?

He needs to pay, and pay dearly, but how?

Yes, if he killed her. Life sentence. 16 is old enough.

RulesOfNature

AllForIt wrote: »

1. Witholding identity of juvenile criminals and their parents/guardians reduced to 10yo.
2. Hefty fines or social welfare cuts* to parents in the case of anti-social/intimidation incidents.
3. Youth prisions from 12yo upwards. Structred in exactly the same way as adult prisions.

4. Get rid of politians who blame youth crime on disadvanged areas - deprevation - inequaity


*most people who are already in social houseing could live on have the dole they get. Penalties could range from the amount cut, to the duration, to permanant.

5. A drastic reduction in child allowance from 2 children upwards. Just wear hand-me-downs like I had to and stop throwing your used child buggy into the canal just cuz want a new one every year.

In countries like Italy, Spain and Germany the police (and private citizens) have the implicit authority to pull youths aside and beat them for misbehaving. No paper work, no charges, just a few cracks to set them straight. A sudden and painful repercussion is more effective than these abstract legislations.

biko

It takes a village to raise a child.

If you see something, say something.

Antares35

biko wrote: »

It takes a village to raise a child.

If you see something, say something.

And risk getting your head bashed in? I got assaulted on the Luas (by a woman, albeit a feral one), for politely asking her to stop digging her elbow into my rib as everyone tried to cram on. Once bitten etc. I'd never say anything to anyone out and about again.

TheBoyConor

It all boil down to this....

If you want stiff punishment for crimes, you have to build more prisons and get more prison staff.
New prisons, staff, and pensions are very very expensive. You'll have the likes of BAM tendering for them remember.
If we want all that we will have to pay for it which means more tax and less money for other things.
There are no votes to be had for more taxes and prisons, because it doesn't fill potholes and doesn't deliver any local benefits to the vast majority of constituencies. Also, no-body wants to have a prison built near them.
No political party will advocate for prisons because of the above reasons.
Therefore there will be no prisons, and no way to significantly tackle juvenile crime.

And sure, we are not the only ones so it is not an irish problem. The fins have it too and they are scandanavian.
I think it is just part of living in a big urban area. It goes with the territory.

The only thing that kept young fellas in check years ago was the fear.
The fear of ending up in an industrial or reformatory school run by sadistic christian brothers.
the fear of getting a your jaw broken by a clout from a big tough Guard like Lugs Brannigan when he'd catch you
the fear of being beaten asunder by your alcoholic father when he got home from the pub penniless to find out you did something.

All those things are gone now. So there is no control on young fellas who are disposed towards trouble.

I'm curious what the city councils now being allowed to refuse social housing on the basis of anti social behaviour will be, as far as I'm aware it extends to anti social behaviour by the applicants children too. It seems as if the councils hands have been tied in this respect for the last few years but are now actually able to enforce it (whether or not they will is anyones guess) and apparently also evict people because of anti social behaviour

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/anti-social-behaviour-crackdown-planned-for-dublin-city-social-housing-1.4519296

Wexford has already started with this traveller family being refused a place on the housing list because of the Father having two public order convictions https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/traveller-family-challenges-their-suspension-from-housing-list-1098980.html

I think if the councils actually take a firm hand in this it could have a major impact on crime

Mimon

biko wrote: »

It takes a village to raise a child.

If you see something, say something.

Nice in theory but say something to a gang of these yokes and you will get laughed at or attacked.

All comes down to zero consequences as mentioned plenty of times in this thread.

Judges should live half the year in the roughest parts of the country so they know what the normal man and woman on the street have to put up with from the feral youth.

Mullaghteelin

fvp4 wrote: »

Theres no evidence at all that these guys were all from deprived areas, particularly the Malahide incident which could have been locals.
.

There has been trouble for years now from groups of teenagers hopping on and off Darts, usually getting on in Clongriffin or Kilbarrack and ending up anywhere from Malahide to Raheny. It's not a new problem.
If I was a betting man, Ild wager that's where they came from.

Cilldara_2000

fvp4 wrote: »

Theres no evidence at all that these guys were all from deprived areas, particularly the Malahide incident which could have been locals.

They were chasing a guy after all, but did they do that across Dublin?



Yes, if he killed her. Life sentence. 16 is old enough.

There's certain parts of Dublin which are rife with marauding hoards of teenage thugs. For example, here are the parts of Dublin that Deliveroo couriers rank as high danger, knowing that to go into these parts is to risk life and limb, and livelihood.

https://ibb.co/cYnpBQ4

mrslancaster

Mimon wrote: »

Nice in theory but say something to a gang of these yokes and you will get laughed at or attacked....

Or mooned
This happened a neighbour last year when she was out for her daily walk and asked 3 young lads to be careful cycling on the footpath. She said they were about 12 and laughed and called her a stupid aul granny - she's in her 40's.

RulesOfNature

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

There's certain parts of Dublin which are rife with marauding hoards of teenage thugs. For example, here are the parts of Dublin that Deliveroo couriers rank as high danger, knowing that to go into these parts is to risk life and limb, and livelihood.

https://ibb.co/cYnpBQ4

What does the black borders mean?

biko

Well, if no one puts their foot down then the bullies have won.

Use the majority. If you live in an estate, start a neighbourhood watch group.
Care for your neighbours.
Be the good in the world.

If you see someone in trouble; help out. If you can't do that - ring the police, video the assault and hand video over to Garda.

Cilldara_2000

RulesOfNature wrote: »

What does the black borders mean?

High risk area.

There was an article on Wired about it: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/deliveroo-couriers-dublin-assault

kapisko1PL

biko wrote: »

Well, if no one puts their foot down then the bullies have won.

Use the majority. If you live in an estate, start a neighbourhood watch group.
Care for your neighbours.
Be the good in the world.

If you see someone in trouble; help out. If you can't do that - ring the police, video the assault and hand video over to Garda.

I think the majority of the problem is around the public areas such as Dart stations, city centres, shops etc.

As good as your theory sounds in practice, Gardai will arrest and charge youths (if they think it's worth their time), courts will basically give them a slap on the wrist and the cycle will repeat.

Also, I would not risk getting involved in a fight and getting injured. You step in to break the fight, they will start fighting you instead, you will kick fight them back and you will be in trouble. God forbid you bring a hurley or any other object into this.

Floppybits

AllForIt wrote: »

1. Witholding identity of juvenile criminals and their parents/guardians reduced to 10yo.
2. Hefty fines or social welfare cuts* to parents in the case of anti-social/intimidation incidents.
3. Youth prisions from 12yo upwards. Structred in exactly the same way as adult prisions.

4. Get rid of politians who blame youth crime on disadvanged areas - deprevation - inequaity


*most people who are already in social houseing could live on have the dole they get. Penalties could range from the amount cut, to the duration, to permanant.

5. A drastic reduction in child allowance from 2 children upwards. Just wear hand-me-downs like I had to and stop throwing your used child buggy into the canal just cuz want a new one every year.

Everytime they are caught they should be made do community service. They should be made were bright orange overalls so they stand out and made clean grafftti or clean the streets. This scrotes don't fear anything and most of them are looking for a confrontation but what they don't like is being humiliated so maybe a bit of visible community service where they are visible of everyone to see and a bit of back breaking work might make them think twice.

KeepItLight

TheBoyConor wrote: »

It all boil down to this....

If you want stiff punishment for crimes, you have to build more prisons and get more prison staff.
New prisons, staff, and pensions are very very expensive. You'll have the likes of BAM tendering for them remember.
If we want all that we will have to pay for it which means more tax and less money for other things.
There are no votes to be had for more taxes and prisons, because it doesn't fill potholes and doesn't deliver any local benefits to the vast majority of constituencies. Also, no-body wants to have a prison built near them.
No political party will advocate for prisons because of the above reasons.
Therefore there will be no prisons, and no way to significantly tackle juvenile crime.

mainstream parties won't, but you can vote for minor parties and independents if its an important issue for you.

additional funding for prisons can come from cuts elsewhere. even if there was an additional cost to the taxpayer, I'm most wouldn't mind paying for it if they felt it was actually going towards something like this

Witcher

Floppybits wrote: »

Everytime they are caught they should be made do community service. They should be made were bright orange overalls so they stand out and made clean grafftti or clean the streets. This scrotes don't fear anything and most of them are looking for a confrontation but what they don't like is being humiliated so maybe a bit of visible community service where they are visible of everyone to see and a bit of back breaking work might make them think twice.

and when they point blank refuse to do it...what then? Imprison them? There are no prison spaces that's why alternatives are being suggested in the first place.

thomil

RulesOfNature wrote: »

In countries like Italy, Spain and Germany the police (and private citizens) have the implicit authority to pull youths aside and beat them for misbehaving. No paper work, no charges, just a few cracks to set them straight. A sudden and painful repercussion is more effective than these abstract legislations.

Source for that German "authority", please? More precisely, where in the StGB (German Crimincal Code) or StPO (German Criminal Proceedings Code) is that laid out? I'm German myself, have worked in the security industry over there, and am certified as per Paragraph 34a GewO (German Commercial business Code) and am even certified to bear firearms as per Paragraph 7 WaffG (German Firearms Code), and I've never heard of any of this.
While German police forces are decentralised, they are all subject to stringent oversight, and any such event that comes out will have significant consequences for the police officers involved. Law enforcement does most definitely NOT have carte blanche in Germany.

As for the topic at hand, basically there are three issues that need to be sorted as far as I can see:

Strict but fair mandatory sentencing guidelines for violent offences. None of this "statement of character" BS or whatever it is called that I see so often, that is far too easily abused. Suspended sentences should be reserved for minor first offenders, and should be tied to draconian conditions

A much more thorough approach to resocialisation of offenders. This seems to be almost non-existent in Ireland at the moment, at least from my perspective. This is where the draconian conditions for suspended sentences should come into play, as one aspect should definitely be to remove them from their existing environment and any negative influence there. How that is carried out in practice, whether that's by transferring the offender, say from Cork to Donegal, monitoring their movement with electronic tags, restricting or monitoring all their message and communications, or maybe a combination of all of these, during the time of the suspended sentence, is above my pay grade, but it is certainly an approach that should be considered.

Finally, there's the thorny issue of repeat offenders. There will need to be long-term accommodation solutions for those, ideally separate from the prison system. In Germany, there's the concept of "Sicherungsverwahrung" or preventive detention, as outlined in Paragraph 66 of the German Criminal Code. This allows offenders who upon their release would still be a significant risk to society to be incarcerated as long as he remains a threat. This only applies to violent or sexual offenders, as well as some severe cases of drug offences and can in theory be indefinite. In Germany, this preventive detention is reserved to facilities that are separate from prisons and more suited for long-term accommodation and is also subject to regular reviews and psychological assessments, but in general, this is an approach that Ireland should consider.

One thing that will not work is either enabling police violence or somehow reducing the access to legal representation or legal aid. Equal access to the law for everyone is one of the most profound human rights overall, as this empowers citizens to stand up and fight for their rights regardless of financial resources, rather than simply being a victim and a doormat for others to trample on. I know from my own country's history what happens when this option is taking away, and as far as I'm concerned, those that agitate for the removal or restriction of free legal aid are no better than the anti-social elements that are the subject of this entire thread! They're just as determined to beat down anyone they see as inferior as a group of teenagers ganging up on a victim, they just use different tools. The aim is the same!

KeepItLight

Witcher wrote: »

and when they point blank refuse to do it...what then? Imprison them? There are no prison spaces that's why alternatives are being suggested in the first place.

unfortunately i don't think there is any workable alternative other than prison space being created. this will just get worse otherwise, which is the likely future.

Witcher

KeepItLight wrote: »

unfortunately i don't think there is any workable alternative other than prison space being created. this will just get worse otherwise, which is the likely future.

No need for that, we'll just use our magical powers to compel them to plant flowers or some other pie in the sky nonsense.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

stoneill wrote: »

Parents of underage thugs should pay the fines and do the time for the runts they brought into the world.

Pah! For the most part they learn it from their parents. In my job I deal with scum every day. I dread when travellers come in because you know it'll be the husband, the wife and the kids throwing abuse at me. The parents don't give two shìts.

TheBoyConor

KeepItLight wrote: »

mainstream parties won't, but you can vote for minor parties and independents if its an important issue for you.

additional funding for prisons can come from cuts elsewhere. even if there was an additional cost to the taxpayer, I'm most wouldn't mind paying for it if they felt it was actually going towards something like this

Fringe parties who will never hold any away in a government.
People shouldn't be eating their vote on fringe parties.

KeepItLight

Witcher wrote: »

No need for that, we'll just use our magical powers to compel them to plant flowers or some other pie in the sky nonsense.

creating social spaces and facilities might work to alleviate some of the bordeom that leads to this, but only after you reduce the amount of scrotes on the street who would just wreck it.

otherwise its just like throwing ice cubes into a volcano in an attempt to cool it down.

KeepItLight

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Fringe parties who will never hold any away in a government.
People shouldn't be eating their vote on fringe parties.

not with that attitude. I'm personally little bit more hopeful.

if my choice is between 2-3 parties who i feel are destroying a country, and working against my self-interest, i don't see an voting for an alterative party as as throwing away a vote

whisky_galore

Mimon wrote: »

Nice in theory but say something to a gang of these yokes and you will get laughed at or attacked.

All comes down to zero consequences as mentioned plenty of times in this thread.

Judges should live half the year in the roughest parts of the country so they know what the normal man and woman on the street have to put up with from the feral youth.

They don't care, it's all return business for themselves and their legal cronies. All law and little justice.

Floppybits

Witcher wrote: »

and when they point blank refuse to do it...what then? Imprison them? There are no prison spaces that's why alternatives are being suggested in the first place.

They would be in prison while doing. Bus them to where they need to be, have the guards watch them and then bus them back to prison.