Teenagers with no value for life and no care for repercussions - **Read OP**

Antares35

Mad_maxx wrote: »

apples and oranges , Sweden sets the bar extremely low for the crime of rape

How? Not being smart but it's either rape or it isn't surely?

Edit sorry just saw that it's defined differently there, and includes use of coercion etc. But here, is that aggravated rape? Where accompanied by particular aggravating factors like violence, threat etc. I need to brush up on law!

Mad_maxx

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/davidhall75/status/1389295260011008000

Seems like common sense. Deduct dole payments/wages. I reckon if this was introduced you'd be amazed just how many 'parents' would discover parenting quick fast when they have less for the booze and the cigarettes.

The problem is no consequences at the end of the day.

first time ive ever agreed with anything David Hall has said

Cilldara_2000

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

I can't sit back and not jump in on this , it's a topic that does drive me up the wall.

Lived in Dublin most of my life and I agree it's not a nice place at all. **** thugs running the streets, luas , trains etc it's in most of Dublin. There doesn't seem to be much of a quiet place in Dublin anymore without hiding up a hill in killiney which isn't anywhere near possible for most people.

I've personally seen it and been close to it myself through work etc in Dublin where young scrotes will shout in your face, spit at you and try to mug you in broad daylight.

Around Dublin city I've seen strung out junkies all over the streets, scumbags shouting up and down O'Connell street looking for gear etc. I've witnessed stabbings , fights, people taking drugs, including needles use and so on. And of course we see the gardai fighting a uphill battle trying to get the place cleaned up. But they just don't have the power or the right court system behind them leading to people getting off the hook etc.

Nobody should really feel unsafe in their home county / town / city but yet here we are.

I've been living in a major city in North America for a while now, and the difference is black and white. I laugh now when people go on about guns etc but realistically I've never felt more safe walking down a street in peace.

Naturally enough being one of the few Irish in the company and so new here a 30 min meeting turns into an hour and a half talking crap but it's been interesting to hear what they had to say about Ireland (the few that were there)

A young couple went a few years ago for a visit to Dublin and they told me how they were harassed on the street, witnessed hoodlums steal the wheels of a car in broad daylight and also witnessed a stabbing. In his words it really ****ed them up and they didn't have much of an opinion of Dublin afterwards and were quite looking forward to going home.

Unfortunately thanks to these scumbags that's the image thats getting out, when they returned from their "vacation" of course their friends / family etc will ask and they will tell.

I've said this before in another thread but there needs to be a sweep, a fresh start to the court system and the gardai and what then can do and I think the only way is to come down really hard on it all.

On top of that I think they should not be rewarded for being long term unemployed and having kids, I think things need to be cut rather than increased. A system that was designed to help you get by if you're stuck for a few weeks is a lifestyle to these people and it's wrong. You shouldn't be able to get by like that.

I'll leave it there and say yes I'd be ashamed of Dublin coming from there, such a shame the place and more places around Ireland too have become like that, Ireland had the potential to be a wonderful green friendly tourist country but they screwed that up for everyone and now here we are.

On the flip side, I've been walking around Dublin for years and never once have I felt unsafe or been threatened.

I can't recall witnessing any problems either but that could just be that I wasn't paying attention to see people shooting up etc.

bmc58

punisher5112 wrote: »

Absolutely shocking but not surprised there are some serious amount of evil bastardos among us .

Dublin city is a cess pool, we need to see Garda presence, rare if none at all on the beat and young gang's everywhere.

Most of the big towns are the same.Packs of untouchable teenagers terrorising neighbourhoods as they see fit.

Mad_maxx

Deleted User wrote: »

well... Considering what we know about indoctrination and social programming, along with the various aspects of psychology, I wonder why we can't simply take these teens and indoctrinate them into being better members of society?

For those who are squeamish about applying physical punishment, would the application of techniques for indoctrination/brainwashing be more acceptable? (Assuming that it could be done without the physical punishments)

I often think that society today doesn't really want to solve such issues because every way to deal with them is considered to be wrong.. and those that remain are ineffective. I understand that there is the fear of opening Pandora's box, slippery slope and all that, but surely at some point we have to say enough is enough and use what we have to reduce the chance of this kind of behavior from continuing.

the west is decadent , we will eventually get taken over by cultures with more traditional approaches

piplip87

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm curious what the city councils now being allowed to refuse social housing on the basis of anti social behaviour will be, as far as I'm aware it extends to anti social behaviour by the applicants children too. It seems as if the councils hands have been tied in this respect for the last few years but are now actually able to enforce it (whether or not they will is anyones guess) and apparently also evict people because of anti social behaviour

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/anti-social-behaviour-crackdown-planned-for-dublin-city-social-housing-1.4519296

Wexford has already started with this traveller family being refused a place on the housing list because of the Father having two public order convictions https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/traveller-family-challenges-their-suspension-from-housing-list-1098980.html

I think if the councils actually take a firm hand in this it could have a major impact on crime

In theory its good. Then on the other hand you will have Moany Lou Mcdonald and Paul the Goatstown Martyr Murphy outraged that their key demographic won't be housed.

Mad_maxx

TheBoyConor wrote: »

It all boil down to this....

If you want stiff punishment for crimes, you have to build more prisons and get more prison staff.
New prisons, staff, and pensions are very very expensive. You'll have the likes of BAM tendering for them remember.
If we want all that we will have to pay for it which means more tax and less money for other things.
There are no votes to be had for more taxes and prisons, because it doesn't fill potholes and doesn't deliver any local benefits to the vast majority of constituencies. Also, no-body wants to have a prison built near them.
No political party will advocate for prisons because of the above reasons.
Therefore there will be no prisons, and no way to significantly tackle juvenile crime.

And sure, we are not the only ones so it is not an irish problem. The fins have it too and they are scandanavian.
I think it is just part of living in a big urban area. It goes with the territory.

The only thing that kept young fellas in check years ago was the fear.
The fear of ending up in an industrial or reformatory school run by sadistic christian brothers.
the fear of getting a your jaw broken by a clout from a big tough Guard like Lugs Brannigan when he'd catch you
the fear of being beaten asunder by your alcoholic father when he got home from the pub penniless to find out you did something.

All those things are gone now. So there is no control on young fellas who are disposed towards trouble.

the money to build prisons can easily be found

1. reduce welfare and especially child benefit after a certain number

2. cut the NGO budget , the NGO,s along with the media are enablers of this culture of delinquency , they make endless excuses for thugs

thomil

klaz wrote: »

well... Considering what we know about indoctrination and social programming, along with the various aspects of psychology, I wonder why we can't simply take these teens and indoctrinate them into being better members of society?

As far as I'm concerned, that's what rehabilitation should be. Reeducation, giving them the tools to control themselves and teaching them what's acceptable in a modern society should be the primary focus for anyone who ends up behind bars.

klaz wrote: »

For those who are squeamish about applying physical punishment, would the application of techniques for indoctrination/brainwashing be more acceptable? (Assuming that it could be done without the physical punishments)

That depends on what techniques you're looking at. I'm honestly curious about that.
On a more general note, I think it is more important to get any offenders away from their previous environment, from any "friends" or gangs they may have been involved with. Any reeducation can be overcome by enough peer pressure, and for now, I don't know how that separation can be achieved and maintained after release, especially for minors.

klaz wrote: »

I often think that society today doesn't really want to solve such issues because every way to deal with them is considered to be wrong.. and those that remain are ineffective. I understand that there is the fear of opening Pandora's box, slippery slope and all that, but surely at some point we have to say enough is enough and use what we have to reduce the chance of this kind of behavior from continuing.

It's not so much that society doesn't want to deal with it, it's more that society doesn't want to pay for it. Well-designed penal & rehabilitation systems work, but they require a lot of time, effort, manpower and resources both to set up and to operate, while at the same time not providing a cast-iron guarantee that they'll actually work 100% of the time. As such, politicians are loathe to touch the subject, or they'll drop it at the first sign of outrage. It's easier to form a new police "task force", invest in new intimidating patrol cars or spout some tough talk on prime-time television about being "tough on crime", rather than doing the legwork.

KeepItLight

Mad_maxx wrote: »

the money to build prisons can easily be found

1. reduce welfare and especially child benefit after a certain number

2. cut the NGO budget , the NGO,s along with the media are enablers of this culture of delinquency , they make endless excuses for thugs

NGOs are one of the core poisons that is killing this country, and are a wedge separating the government from the people its supposed to represent. If it were up to me I'd ban them from operating in this country if they were in receipt of any foreign funding.

Birdnuts

There does seem to be an increasingly larger nasty element among teenagers these days. My home village in Kildare has seen a signficant rise in anti-social behavour by these types in the last few years. From destroying local beauty spots with vandelism and rubbish to the intimidation of people going about their business. Parenting standards play a big role and until they are held accountable for the actions of their spawn then its hard to see the situation improving

Mad_maxx

KeepItLight wrote: »

NGOs are one of the core poisons that is killing this country, and are a wedge separating the government from the people its supposed to represent. If it were up to me I'd ban them from operating in this country if they were in receipt of any foreign funding.

if i were dictator for a day with lasting powers , that and proscribing RTE would top of my to do list

Cilldara_2000

Incidentally, there have been a few posts about how great the Gardaí are wouldn't it all be just grand if the judges respected their work and dealt more harshly with the criminals. I'm not sure I agree.

Here's an article from 2019 outlining that "7,894 criminal offences committed by 3,489 child suspects were not progressed because of “Garda inaction” over a seven-year period."

In total in the same period it says that there were 158k referrals to the the youth diversion programme of which 55k were deemed unsuitable and and it says these should have progressed into the judicial system proper but the 8k above were just lost.

There's a report published every year entitled "Annual Report of the Committee Appointed to Monitor the Effectiveness of the Diversion Programme". The 2019 report was published on 8 April 2021 and can be found here.

Assumedly these are Garda statistics. I note that the CSO still doesn't fully trust them after the PULSE scandal.

Tony EH

FileNotFound wrote: »

A truly hard and horrible beating would soon teach some manners...

I am at the point where I feel pain is the only true teacher that will work for some of these, pain and if they don't learn even more pain.

Yeh, you see it wouldn't though.

All that would do is make them want revenge and they'll go out and get revenge on some other poor fucker who's an easy target for them and you end up perpetuating the cycle, not alleviating it.

So all that your revenge wish would achieve is to engender another revenge wish on the person who was on the receiving end.

Tony EH

EddieN75 wrote: »

Stop the handouts. If you have nothing to do all day you don't feel part of society. You have no purpose.
These youths are the children of those layabouts and have grown up living that lifestyle.

That's a long term solution. Short term more Gardai on the street and less driving around in the car playing with their phones until shift change

You solution is bollocks.

If you think that stopping welfare would suddenly make scumbags shape up and fly right, you haven't even even considered the very first pitfall.

The only thing that comes from your "solution" is a WORSE situation leading to even more robbery and violence.

Well done you.

Feisar

Western society doesn't have the stomach to deal with vermin so we are where we are. Those that cry about the doll these people get; imagine what they'd be like without the satiation.

Kermit.de.frog

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

I can't sit back and not jump in on this , it's a topic that does drive me up the wall.

Lived in Dublin most of my life and I agree it's not a nice place at all. **** thugs running the streets, luas , trains etc it's in most of Dublin. There doesn't seem to be much of a quiet place in Dublin anymore without hiding up a hill in killiney which isn't anywhere near possible for most people.

I've personally seen it and been close to it myself through work etc in Dublin where young scrotes will shout in your face, spit at you and try to mug you in broad daylight.

Around Dublin city I've seen strung out junkies all over the streets, scumbags shouting up and down O'Connell street looking for gear etc. I've witnessed stabbings , fights, people taking drugs, including needles use and so on. And of course we see the gardai fighting a uphill battle trying to get the place cleaned up. But they just don't have the power or the right court system behind them leading to people getting off the hook etc.

Nobody should really feel unsafe in their home county / town / city but yet here we are.

I've been living in a major city in North America for a while now, and the difference is black and white. I laugh now when people go on about guns etc but realistically I've never felt more safe walking down a street in peace.

Naturally enough being one of the few Irish in the company and so new here a 30 min meeting turns into an hour and a half talking crap but it's been interesting to hear what they had to say about Ireland (the few that were there)

A young couple went a few years ago for a visit to Dublin and they told me how they were harassed on the street, witnessed hoodlums steal the wheels of a car in broad daylight and also witnessed a stabbing. In his words it really ****ed them up and they didn't have much of an opinion of Dublin afterwards and were quite looking forward to going home.

Unfortunately thanks to these scumbags that's the image thats getting out, when they returned from their "vacation" of course their friends / family etc will ask and they will tell.

I've said this before in another thread but there needs to be a sweep, a fresh start to the court system and the gardai and what then can do and I think the only way is to come down really hard on it all.

On top of that I think they should not be rewarded for being long term unemployed and having kids, I think things need to be cut rather than increased. A system that was designed to help you get by if you're stuck for a few weeks is a lifestyle to these people and it's wrong. You shouldn't be able to get by like that.

I'll leave it there and say yes I'd be ashamed of Dublin coming from there, such a shame the place and more places around Ireland too have become like that, Ireland had the potential to be a wonderful green friendly tourist country but they screwed that up for everyone and now here we are.

This is what many people don't seem to consider. Most of us know Dublin and the city center but this city is getting a name for itself from those been and gone. Only get away with it so long before the city earns a reputation and that effects tourism and businesses, ultimately Jobs. I mean Dublin must be quite intimidating for visitors who wouldn't know the place.

This is not a safe city and the authorities, judiciary and the gardai are to blame ultimately.

It's a national embarrassment the way we go about things.

TrangiaCoffee

People need to calm down. All they did was push a bicycle in the woman's direction. They didn't push or mean for her to fall under the train which was evident from the shocked reaction of one of the teens.

Teens are not getting more our of control, it's adults getting more bidchy.

Kermit.de.frog

Tony EH wrote: »

The only thing that comes from your "solution" is a WORSE situation leading to even more robbery and violence.

So it's a hostage situation then.

Thanks for clarifying.

Tony EH

biko wrote: »

Almost all of us managed to get though childhood and teen years without killing or hurting someone.
What makes us special?
A sense of morality?
Better parents?

The possibility of a future and your actions having an impact on that future perhaps.

More often than not, these delinquents come from shitty circumstances and learn very quickly that there is no future for them. So they end up developing a "don't care" attitude, because why should they?

The formative years of their lives will have shown them, clearly, that they are the product of a contemptuous situation that will often follow them around and often the just end up not giving a damn about any consequences or anyone else either. They have no future to hope for, so why should they care for the present?

This then leads them down a completely destructive road and they become a nightmare for themselves and everyone else too, more than likely leading to drug abuse, crime, jail time and an early death.

Tony EH

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So it's a hostage situation then.

Thanks for clarifying.

I won't claim to know exactly what the answer is. But I do know that it'll require some better thinking than just hit them.

It's something that needs a scalpel and some educated thought. Not just mindless hacking with a cleaver. Because as has already been mentioned, if history has thought us anything is that that route certainly doesn't work.

TheBoyConor

Mad_maxx wrote: »

the money to build prisons can easily be found

1. reduce welfare and especially child benefit after a certain number

2. cut the NGO budget , the NGO,s along with the media are enablers of this culture of delinquency , they make endless excuses for thugs

Yeah, good luck getting any of that through the Dail. Not going to happen. ever. Too many votes to be lost by tinkering with welfare.

Mad_maxx

Tony EH wrote: »

The possibility of a future and your actions having an impact on that future perhaps.

More often than not, these delinquents come from shitty circumstances and learn very quickly that there is no future for them. So they end up developing a "don't care" attitude, because why should they?

The formative years of their lives will have shown them, clearly, that they are the product of a contemptuous situation that will often follow them around and often the just end up not giving a damn about any consequences or anyone else either. They have no future to hope for, so why should they care for the present?

This then leads them down a completely destructive road and they become a nightmare for themselves and everyone else too, more than likely leading to drug abuse, crime, jail time and an early death.

this is Dublin we are discussing , not the Favelas of San Paulo

spare us the sociology 101 cliches ,we get that kind of left wing spiel on prime time every other night of the week from some clueless do gooder

we had a fraction of the delinquency fifty years ago with multiples of the poverty level we currently have

Mad_maxx

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Yeah, good luck getting any of that through the Dail. Not going to happen. ever. Too many votes to be lost by tinkering with welfare.

politicians are far more afraid of media than they are of middle ireland , any politician who suggested welfare reform and more draconian sentencing would be labelled " far right " by the media , hopefully someone with backbone willing to tolerate liberal media demonisation will emerge , no sign yet but when they do , people will respond

Tony EH

Mad_maxx wrote: »

this is Dublin we are discussing , not the Favelas of San Paulo

spare us the sociology 101 cliches ,we get that kind of left wing spiel on prime time every other night of the week from some clueless do gooder

And your dreck is the same old mindless bollocks that hasn't ever solved anything and will only end up making things worse for everyone.

The fact of the matter is that there certain social circumstances that are almost universal in the makeup of teenage delinquency, which in turn leads to problems in adult life. By which time it's far too late to do anything.

Refusal to understand that leads us nowhere.

As a society we need to deal with the basics first. Start with the issues in the formative years of these people, so that the teenage years aren't a complete write off and there's some hope of the person in question turning out to be somebody who sees themselves with some kind of worth to society.

Mad_maxx

Tony EH wrote: »

And your dreck is the same old mindless bollocks that hasn't ever solved anything and will only end up making things worse for everyone.

The fact of the matter is that there certain social circumstances that are almost universal in the makeup of teenage delinquency, which in turn leads to problems in adult life. By which time it's far too late to do anything.

Refusal to understand that leads us nowhere.

As a society we need to deal with the basics first. Start with the issues in the formative years of these people, so that the teenage years aren't a complete write off and there's some hope of the person in question turning out to be somebody who sees themselves with some kind of worth to society.

what do you mean " it has never solved anything " ? , we havent attempted to even try it

we have had a softly softly approach to delinquency this past thirty years , be it with travellers or inner city thugs , the left cheered on this kind of carrot strategy , it has been an abject failure and yet the left still demand that their way be the only show in town and everyone else sit down and shut up.

the arrogance is staggering

KeepItLight

Tony EH wrote: »

And your dreck is the same old mindless bollocks that hasn't ever solved anything and will only end up making things worse for everyone.

The fact of the matter is that there certain social circumstances that are almost universal in the makeup of teenage delinquency, which in turn leads to problems in adult life. By which time it's far too late to do anything.

Refusal to understand that leads us nowhere.

As a society we need to deal with the basics first. Start with the issues in the formative years of these people, so that the teenage years aren't a complete write off and there's some hope of the person in question turning out to be somebody who sees themselves with some kind of worth to society.

you should read the academic paper "Carrot, Sticks & Broken Windows":
https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/425594?seq=1

It investigates whether a 'carrot' approach ie) social incentives or a 'stick' approach ie) punitive measures work better at decreasing crime rates. The paper concluded it was the latter, as demonstrated by New York City's dramatic decrease in crime rates in the mid-late 90's.

On a personal note, you have to understand that most people feel that rehabilitation is a secondary concern, and the primary concern is to get the criminal elements off the street.

Gardai can arrest all they want, but until we start building more prisons and imposing lengthy sentences once it gets into the courtroom, we can't pretend that we've tried this approach and failed, because we haven't

TheBoyConor

Bring back christian brother industrial schools, unpredictably violent alcoholic fathers, and frustrated school masters fond of the leather, and we will see how tough these teenagers really are.

Mad_maxx

Mad_maxx wrote: »

the money to build prisons can easily be found

1. reduce welfare and especially child benefit after a certain number

2. cut the NGO budget , the NGO,s along with the media are enablers of this culture of delinquency , they make endless excuses for thugs

So, your solution is to build prisons, which do not act as a deterrent, and in order to do so, you want to cut welfare, which actually increases crime?


This is the trouble with this thread. It's awash with ideas that sound good in theory and look good written down, but in practice, in actual life, are absolutely cuckoo.

Norway has the lowest recidivism rate on the planet - their solution is not "BYGG FLERE FENGSLER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Tony EH

KeepItLight wrote: »

you should read the academic paper "Carrot, Sticks & Broken Windows":
https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/425594?seq=1

It investigates whether a 'carrot' approach ie) social incentives or a 'stick' approach ie) punitive measures work better at decreasing crime rates. The paper concluded it was the latter, as demonstrated by New York City's dramatic decrease in crime rates in the mid-late 90's.

On a personal note, you have to understand that most people feel that rehabilitation is a secondary concern, and the primary concern is to get the criminal elements off the street.

Gardai can arrest all they want, but until we start building more prisons and imposing lengthy sentences once it gets into the courtroom, we can't pretend that we've tried this approach and failed, because we haven't

I'm not talking about "carrots". I'm talking about hope and instilling that hope into someone when they are very young. The formative years is when we receive the nucleus of how we perceive the world around us and if that starts with a sense of hopelessness due to delinquent parenting, then there's a pretty good chance that that kid ends up on a destructive road than no amount of sticks will alter.

If we look at a lot of these people who are on this destructive path, there are nearly always the usual problems with parenting and their home circumstances. Tackle those issues and we probably onto a better framework for dealing with the societal problems that the offspring of those homes indulge in in later life.

As I said, it requires thinking, not sticks.

There will, of course be people that are beyond any kind of redemption. But, frankly, there's not much to be done there as their sociopathy is more than likely engrained. But that's a different matter.

For others, it's what they're born into that often leads to a cycle to be perpetuated.

KeepItLight

Tony EH wrote: »

I'm not talking about "carrots". I'm talking about hope and instilling that hope into someone when they are very young. .

that is what the paper is referring to, not actual carrots.