Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XI *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

walus

I've gone on a sabbatical from this forum for the past 2 months and after reading the last 20 pages one would have thought that nothing has changed really. The delta variant is driving the narrative of fear and uncertainty, the government is as weak as ever, Tony in the same position to direct the living-with-covid policy, cases still used as KPI. People did not grow balls or developed brains yet - it will never happen at this point. And so the circus continues. What a sh1t show.

I think I'm going to stay out of this at this point and maybe check back in October or so. It will be the gamma variant driving the country into yet another lockdown so that we can protect whoever needs to be protected at that stage. Just in case.

gozunda

MOH wrote: »

Bizarre desperate line of argument if you're resorting to claiming that somebody never said something because they said also something different at a different time.

Looking forward to seeing how you mangle truth to claim that this is not backing up what I said

....

Lol. A truely staggering piece of mangling, dodging n diving and whataboutery there my friend..

The bit which you skipped btw was you falsely
Quoting Nolan stating that "schools are perfectly safe" - then bizarrely claiming what he said was a "lie". And btw you included inverted commas with that as a direct quote from Nolan. Complete and utter scutter.

It remains he didn't say that. But hey wtf does the truth matter when someone can go on an extended rant with a bit of faux outrage thrown in for good measure eh?

zackory

gozunda wrote: »

But hey wtf does the truth matter when someone can go on an extended rant with a bit of faux outrage thrown in for good measure eh?

I love it when you go describing yourself to perfection without realising it. Really makes me chuckle.

MOH

seamus wrote: »

So if we've 4,000 cases last week, 20% Delta, and 3,000 cases this week, 40% Delta, then we're still in a great place.

It's when the cases are rising and the proportions changing that we need to be concerned.

Must be the end of day of days, I'm actually in agreement with you on something.

"Concern about the rise in the proportion of variant X" is deliberate obfuscation to make it sound like cases are actually rising. Tony is not above using language in this way to try and communicate the need for caution. It's well-intentioned, but it's a mistake IMO.

And that's the huge problem with NPHET. Their supporters here have repeatedly been banging on about how their role is merely to advise the government, but they've repeatedly cherry-picked the statistics that best suit their purpose to try to manipulate public opinion. The intent is irrelevant.

Want to bring in level 5? Bang on for weeks that the 14-day average has to stop rising. Then when it does, insist it has to start falling, but bring in L5 anyway before it has time to do so.

Want to give the impression Level 5 was necessary and is working? Suddenly switch to talking about the 5- and 7-day average and how they're falling thus proving that your "additional measures" were effective.
Except that since you're saying this less than a week after L5 was brought in, there hasn't been time for it to have any effect on either.
But you're not actually lying, because you're actually talking about the last set of additional measures you introduced under Level 3. (Which did have an effect, with half of the overall drop in November coming before L5 had a chance to be effective).
If people assume you're talking about Level 5 from your carefully constructed misleading statement, that's on them.

Want to scare everyone into compliance? Use whichever of the 5-, 7-, or 14-day averages is going the "right" (i.e. wrong) direction.
If none of them are, use the raw daily numbers if they sound large enough, or if you can find a one-off low day last week to compare them to.
But simultaneously, if you want to e.g. claim schools are safe, use hilariously specific statistics such as "the positive rate among close contacts in schools over the past two weeks".

When it suits you, use correlations between case numbers and things you don't want to see to imply that those things are responsible, deliberately ignoring other potential contributing factors. But when it comes to schools, insist that correlation doesn't imply causation.

Claim in September that retrospective contact tracing is an "academic excercise", then claim in February that you've been pushing for it since last August. Meanwhile you'd already claimed in July that you had everything in place to quickly trace and isolate clusters (which would require retrospective tracing).


Be as intentionally misleading and manipulative as you can, but at least nobody can accuse you of lying.

TomSweeney

suicide_circus wrote: »

Wonder will lockdowns be used for reasons other than covid;

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jun/21/flu-could-be-a-bigger-problem-than-covid-in-uk-this-winter

20-30 thousand people die from flu annually in the UK - lockdown would save these lives. The precedent has been set - lockdowns are a legitimate and effective tool in a government's toolkit. Not only that, lockdowns enjoy widespread public support.

Evil, just evil.

mikekerry

suicide_circus wrote: »

Wonder will lockdowns be used for reasons other than covid;

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jun/21/flu-could-be-a-bigger-problem-than-covid-in-uk-this-winter

20-30 thousand people die from flu annually in the UK - lockdown would save these lives. The precedent has been set - lockdowns are a legitimate and effective tool in a government's toolkit. Not only that, lockdowns enjoy widespread public support.

If they are threatening reopening now what will it be like in winter when cases will go up as would be expected to.
they will go into complete panic mode.
It's hard to see them not locking down again.
They literally have only 1 "solution" and it's lockdown

daydorunrun

seamus wrote: »

It's why they have two of the lowest body counts in the world.

It's an approach they can afford to take.

And as heartless as it can seem at times, it's when you make exceptions that the infection manages to get a foothold in the country.

Such an approach would be insane for us at our current vaccination levels, but Oz and NZ are nowhere near protected, so they have to continue like it's June 2020, regardless of the vaccination or PCR status of the person travelling.

Many, many, many, many people across the world have had family die and no way to go back and see them. It's a sh1t state of affairs, but it's a pandemic. Sob stories like this one are no justification for making exceptions. Their circumstances are heart breaking, but not special.

Fcuk off with your 'Sob stories'. This is not some staged, frivolous 'woe is me' story. They were granted an exemption and then got a call to say it was rescinded as their plane took off for Australia!
They wanted to pay for hazmat suits and wear tracking devices but were denied 4 times and now they are sitting in a hotel just miles away from where his fathers grip on life is slowly slipping away.

TomSweeney

It's depressing, how are they going to justify lockdown this winter when almost 100% adults will be vaccinated, what is the f*cking point n me even going for my 2nd dose ???

mikekerry

mikekerry wrote: »

If they are threatening reopening now what will it be like in winter when cases will go up as would be expected to.
they will go into complete panic mode.
It's hard to see them not locking down again.
They literally have only 1 "solution" and it's lockdown

But there is no appetite for any more lockdowns, there is simply no money, can’t see it happening, if it does the ct people will start looking right. All of Europe is opening we’re just backwards and docile people. No one would stand for another lockdown, would be unbearable.

seamus

TomSweeney wrote: »

It's depressing, how are they going to justify lockdown this winter when almost 100% adults will be vaccinated, what is the f*cking point n me even going for my 2nd dose ???

What lockdown?

Why are you inventing something and then getting upset about it?

Whatsisname

seamus wrote: »

It's why they have two of the lowest body counts in the world.

It's an approach they can afford to take.

And as heartless as it can seem at times, it's when you make exceptions that the infection manages to get a foothold in the country.

Such an approach would be insane for us at our current vaccination levels, but Oz and NZ are nowhere near protected, so they have to continue like it's June 2020, regardless of the vaccination or PCR status of the person travelling.

Many, many, many, many people across the world have had family die and no way to go back and see them. It's a sh1t state of affairs, but it's a pandemic. Sob stories like this one are no justification for making exceptions. Their circumstances are heart breaking, but not special.

Regardless of vaccination or PCR status of the person travelling, whats the point of either so if they don't seem to matter?

I don't buy into this whole "it's a pandemic, so **** everything else" mindset. It seems the people most in favour of restrictions like this to "save lives" are some of the most callous people I've ever come across and seem to take great disdain in other peoples lives ironically enough. Especially as human rights abuses simply pass as "sob stories" now.

mikekerry

gansi wrote: »

But there is no appetite for any more lockdowns, there is simply no money, can’t see it happening, if it does the ct people will start looking right. All of Europe is opening we’re just backwards and docile people. No one would stand for another lockdown, would be unbearable.

There may not be an appetite for it but people have complied all the way through for the past 15 months.
ee are not a nation that protests, we just shrug our shoulders and comply.
Around a million people protested in london a few weeks ago and another protest planned for this weekend they are expecting a huge turnout.

TomSweeney

seamus wrote: »

What lockdown?

Why are you inventing something and then getting upset about it?

If you can't see whats happening right in front of you , nothing I can really do.


They are already laying the ground work for extending restrictions due to the new scariants.


What do you think it will be like in Winter when this really kicks into season ??

facehugger99

TomSweeney wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-australia-57563852

Insanity , utter insanity, fully vaccinated and 3 negative PCRs ....

Australia has lost the plot ...

The ease with which fascism can take root in a country is very troubling and make no mistake, this is fascism pure and simple.

We are not far behind them. Widespread removal of civil liberties and democratic freedoms so that some Covid Hysteria-junkies can feel 'safe'.

Ballynally

MOH wrote: »

Must be the end of day of days, I'm actually in agreement with you on something.



And that's the huge problem with NPHET. Their supporters here have repeatedly been banging on about how their role is merely to advise the government, but they've repeatedly cherry-picked the statistics that best suit their purpose to try to manipulate public opinion. The intent is irrelevant.

Want to bring in level 5? Bang on for weeks that the 14-day average has to stop rising. Then when it does, insist it has to start falling, but bring in L5 anyway before it has time to do so.

Want to give the impression Level 5 was necessary and is working? Suddenly switch to talking about the 5- and 7-day average and how they're falling thus proving that your "additional measures" were effective.
Except that since you're saying this less than a week after L5 was brought in, there hasn't been time for it to have any effect on either.
But you're not actually lying, because you're actually talking about the last set of additional measures you introduced under Level 3. (Which did have an effect, with half of the overall drop in November coming before L5 had a chance to be effective).
If people assume you're talking about Level 5 from your carefully constructed misleading statement, that's on them.

Want to scare everyone into compliance? Use whichever of the 5-, 7-, or 14-day averages is going the "right" (i.e. wrong) direction.
If none of them are, use the raw daily numbers if they sound large enough, or if you can find a one-off low day last week to compare them to.
But simultaneously, if you want to e.g. claim schools are safe, use hilariously specific statistics such as "the positive rate among close contacts in schools over the past two weeks".

When it suits you, use correlations between case numbers and things you don't want to see to imply that those things are responsible, deliberately ignoring other potential contributing factors. But when it comes to schools, insist that correlation doesn't imply causation.

Claim in September that retrospective contact tracing is an "academic excercise", then claim in February that you've been pushing for it since last August. Meanwhile you'd already claimed in July that you had everything in place to quickly trace and isolate clusters (which would require retrospective tracing).


Be as intentionally misleading and manipulative as you can, but at least nobody can accuse you of lying.

I see you have done your homework.
Not good for your mental health, though.
Maybe switch off for a while. Try to relax.
Too much reality rots the brain.
Just lower your expectations a tad if you can.
And stay off social media..

facehugger99

seamus wrote: »

It's why they have two of the lowest body counts in the world.

It's an approach they can afford to take.

And as heartless as it can seem at times, it's when you make exceptions that the infection manages to get a foothold in the country.

Such an approach would be insane for us at our current vaccination levels, but Oz and NZ are nowhere near protected, so they have to continue like it's June 2020, regardless of the vaccination or PCR status of the person travelling.

Many, many, many, many people across the world have had family die and no way to go back and see them. It's a sh1t state of affairs, but it's a pandemic. Sob stories like this one are no justification for making exceptions. Their circumstances are heart breaking, but not special.

People in their 70's, 80's and 90's stopped dying in Australia over the last year?

Wow, how did they manage that?

Micky 32

TomSweeney wrote: »

It's depressing, how are they going to justify lockdown this winter when almost 100% adults will be vaccinated, what is the f*cking point n me even going for my 2nd dose ???

It’s highly unlikely there will be winter lockdowns.

seamus

Whatsisname wrote: »

Regardless of vaccination or PCR status of the person travelling, whats the point of either so if they don't seem to matter?

So you think vaccinations and testing is pointless if you can't travel to another country? Right.

Especially as human rights abuses simply pass as "sob stories" now.

There is no blanket human right to enter a country without restrictions.

Sometimes it is necessary to temporarily yield some of our basic humanities in order to protect society as a whole.

What these people have to do is no different to all the families who've had to have closed coffins, forgo wakes, restrict funerals to a tiny fraction of their families, say goodbye to dying parents or children over zoom, and all the thousands of other small humanities we've had to sacrifice.

Why are this couple getting special treatment?

Because it's a sob story; A human interest story specially selected to tug at the heartstrings for clicks and likes, not to start a serious debate.

zackory

seamus wrote: »

What lockdown?

Why are you inventing something and then getting upset about it?

If we kick back to July 19th for indoor from July 5th then a few weeks later schools will be getting ready to go back then

BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM

Our schools are our priority so hospitality can wait.

Look in the mirror and ask yourself how many times have you been told "The next 2 weeks are crucial" and lapped it up each and every time?

gozunda

bear1 wrote: »

The government is like a flag. Waving back and forth.
Delay variant, omega variant, alpha variant. It's like a stupid resident evil saga.
For a country with so little cases I'm amazed they are considering this at all.
Meanwhile in Italy, from the 28th you don't need a mask outside and from the 1st of July no PCR tests to travel if you're vaccinated.
Bunch of cowboys we have.

I'm gobsmacked - are you saying the only government worldwide keeping an eye on variants of concern is Ireland? :eek:

You'll be delighted to know we don't require people to wear masks outdoors here either!

And for the moment you most certainly do require a pre-departure negative COVID-19 test for travel to Italy.

And afaik we're due to adopt the DCC in the 2nd week of July just two weeks after its rolled out.

But hey let's keep the level of outrage up.

mikekerry

mikekerry wrote: »

There may not be an appetite for it but people have complied all the way through for the past 15 months.
ee are not a nation that protests, we just shrug our shoulders and comply.
Around a million people protested in london a few weeks ago and another protest planned for this weekend they are expecting a huge turnout.

All true the thing is the pup has been cut back and will be cut back more and if some people find themselves on the breadline in the coming months they won’t support lockdowns.And where would the money be found to support the shuttered businesses. But yes we are completely docile and just sit back while Rome burns.

gozunda

zackory wrote: »

I love it when you go describing yourself to perfection without realising it. Really makes me chuckle.

If you bother reading the post you quoted - Its referring to the comment made.

What's with the continued personal attacks on other posters zackory?

Are you incapable of actually discussing the topic or?

Hurrache

TomSweeney wrote: »

If you can't see whats happening right in front of you , nothing I can really do.


They are already laying the ground work for extending restrictions due to the new scariants.


What do you think it will be like in Winter when this really kicks into season ??

facehugger99 wrote: »

The ease with which fascism can take root in a country is very troubling and make no mistake, this is fascism pure and simple.

We are not far behind them. Widespread removal of civil liberties and democratic freedoms so that some Covid Hysteria-junkies can feel 'safe'.

Lads, step away from the internet, you're falling apart.

daydorunrun

seamus wrote: »

So you think vaccinations and testing is pointless if you can't travel to another country? Right.

There is no blanket human right to enter a country without restrictions.

Sometimes it is necessary to temporarily yield some of our basic humanities in order to protect society as a whole.

What these people have to do is no different to all the families who've had to have closed coffins, forgo wakes, restrict funerals to a tiny fraction of their families, say goodbye to dying parents or children over zoom, and all the thousands of other small humanities we've had to sacrifice.

Why are this couple getting special treatment?

Because it's a sob story; A human interest story specially selected to tug at the heartstrings for clicks and likes, not to start a serious debate.

Click bate! Seriously? You're not going to start a serious debate but spew out this bull**** and that's OK?
You didn't even watch the clip.

Avon8

gozunda wrote: »

Yes. Add 2 plus what ever number you have in your head plus the number of cars passing T any given moment - then use that figure to prove whatever point you want.

Fairly simple really tbf Graham. You know basic stuff ....

gozunda wrote: »

Lol. A truely staggering piece of mangling, dodging n diving and whataboutery there my friend..

The bit which you skipped btw was you falsely
Quoting Nolan stating that "schools are perfectly safe" - then bizarrely claiming what he said was a "lie". And btw you included inverted commas with that as a direct quote from Nolan. Complete and utter scutter

It remains he didn't say that. But hey wtf does the truth matter when someone can go on an extended rant with a bit of faux outrage thrown in for good measure eh?

gozunda wrote: »

But hey let's keep the level of outrage up.

Have all your 17k posts ended with a sneery, sarcastic (and non funny) remark? That's just the last couple of pages. The cheek then to accuse other posters of personal attacks

TomSweeney

Hurrache wrote: »

Lads, step away from the internet, you're falling apart.

You're in complete denial if you can't see it.
Ignorance is bliss I guess ...

seamus

daydorunrun wrote: »

You didn't even watch the clip.

No, I didn't.

Because as a general rule, if the content isn't entirely contained within the written article, then it's a clickbait piece to pull at the heartstrings.

Emotion isn't as conveyable over text. The only reason the media produce videos with text teasers is because the entire purpose of the piece is to provoke emotion, not to communicate important information.

If it was important, it would be a full article with a video to be optionally watched.

gozunda

TomSweeney wrote: »

Evil, just evil.

Thats a fairly good description of the Guardian

Little better than a tabloid these days tbf.

zackory

gozunda wrote: »

If you bother reading the post you quoted - Its referring to the comment made.

What's with the continued personal attacks on other posters zackory?

Are you incapable of actually discussing the topic or?

So its ok for you to describe somebody elses contribution as

an extended rant with a bit of faux outrage thrown in

and

Complete and utter scutter.

But when your toxic and condescending comments are thrown back in your face it becomes a personal attack on you.

Well able to dish it out but can't take it obviously.

VinLieger

Hurrache wrote: »

Lads, step away from the internet, you're falling apart.

Scally and ISAG were literally yesterday calling for current travel restrictions to be extended for several years