The social housing list in Dublin

ek motor

TomTomTim wrote: »

Exactly. Democracy is not democracy when only "accepted speech" is allowed. It's democracy in name only. We're one of the few nations in the west that goes out of their way to try and avoid even discussing the topic, never mind having an honest debate about the issues.

Why have the people of Ireland and indeed every European country not been offered a democratic vote on the mass immigration that has happened over the past 20 years? Why have people not been asked 'Are you happy or unhappy with the massive demographic change occurring in your town/village/city ?' 'Are you happy with the increased pressure on schools housing and health care? '

No one asked for mass immigration to Europe , so why has it been pushed so hard by certain quarters ?

Why does anyone who speaks out against face such vehement ostracising and character assassination for saying what most people think ?

Who are the people who promote this and why ?

Spanish Eyes

This is the reply I received from a Government TD in my constituency. I questioned the policy of granting asylum seekers own door accommodation even if their application has not been processed. Fair question these days I would have thought.

Make of it what you will. I was not that impressed with the reply. This is Dublin BTW. I don't want to identify the constituency, but it is Southside.

With regard to asylum seekers, Leo Varadkar has stated that the aim of the White Paper on Direct Provision is to ensure that applicants for International Protection are treated fairly and respectfully while applying for protection, and that their basic needs are met. But he has also acknowledged that Irish citizens and taxpayers have a right to expect an International Protection system that is efficient in both time and cost and that is not open to abuse. Scrutiny of applicants and sincerity of people seeking refuge will be a feature of the revised programme.

Under the new system, applicants who avail of State-provided accommodation will initially be accommodated in a Reception and Integration Centre for up to 4 months. If the application process for refugee status or international protection has not concluded within the four months, the applicant – single people and families – will be moved to State-provided accommodation in cities and towns. However, the aim of this revised system will be to help people live independently as soon as possible.

This programme will be run completely separate from the current social and public housing programme, both of which are ongoing. The main point is that this programme will not replace or infringe on any other commitments in the programme for government.

Many people who have come to Ireland as refugees have become citizens and are now working in many of the sectors that have proved essential during the Covid-19 pandemic, and this is the ultimate goal of the revised direct provision system.

donaghs

bubblypop wrote: »

Threads like this are designed to look at nationality, that's the whole point of the OP!
So posters can come on & talk about all the foreigners coming in and using up all our money and the poor Irish get nothing etc etc
Dividing people.

Of it was really a thread about housing supply no one would mention nationality, it would be about housing.

Ireland's population is growing (almost by half a million people in 10 years).

But yet the birth has been falling or stable. So do we just keep saying "build more houses"? Or do we ask the bigger question of how many people is the ideal and how much more concrete we want to pour?
Some actual planning.

vriesmays

There's an area in Waterford with a majority of non-nationals in the last census. It's called the Viking triangle. Imagine bemused tourists visiting there and seeing the place full of residents who are not descended from Vikings.

Cilldara_2000

donaghs wrote: »

Ireland's population is growing (almost by half a million people in 10 years).

But yet the birth has been falling or stable. So do we just keep saying "build more houses"? Or do we ask the bigger question of how many people is the ideal and how much more concrete we want to pour?
Some actual planning.

Loads more is acceptable. We still haven't reached the 1841 high and our population density is well below the European average. The more merrier IMO - particularly if they're young or have children, they'll pay for my pension.

Hamachi

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

Loads more is acceptable. We still haven't reached the 1841 high and our population density is well below the European average. The more merrier IMO - particularly if they're young or have children, they'll pay for my pension.

Are you relying on the state to provide you with a pension? Good luck with that. Perhaps if you’re over 50/55, you’ll receive a state pension.

Those of us who are significantly younger aren’t counting on that and are making our own provisions. Perhaps you should do the same?

ek motor

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

Loads more is acceptable. We still haven't reached the 1841 high and our population density is well below the European average. The more merrier IMO - particularly if they're young or have children, they'll pay for my pension.

You are economically illiterate.

EddieN75

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

Loads more is acceptable. We still haven't reached the 1841 high and our population density is well below the European average. The more merrier IMO - particularly if they're young or have children, they'll pay for my pension.

And we shall call it Fantasy Island

Hamachi

donaghs wrote: »

Ireland's population is growing (almost by half a million people in 10 years).

But yet the birth has been falling or stable. So do we just keep saying "build more houses"? Or do we ask the bigger question of how many people is the ideal and how much more concrete we want to pour?
Some actual planning.

Just to pick up on this. Ireland’s population is growing naturally by 25-30K annually. In fact, it was growing by as much as ~40K as recently as 5/6 years ago. Natural population growth of ~300K is to be expected over a decade.

It’s a good thing that we have a relatively youthful population with the tempo effect generating future momentum. It also belies this oft repeated fallacy that we need ‘loads’ of indiscriminate immigration to pay for pensions.

Cilldara_2000

Hamachi wrote: »

Are you relying on the state to provide you with a pension? Good luck with that. Perhaps if you’re over 50/55, you’ll receive a state pension.

Those of us who are significantly younger aren’t counting on that and are making our own provisions. Perhaps you should do the same?

Who says I'm counting on it? It would be nice to get it in addition to the private pension after paying PRSI for a lifetime.

ek motor wrote: »

You are economically illiterate.

There have been oodles of studies done on the economic benefits of immigration. Perhaps go read some of them before throwing insults around.

EddieN75 wrote: »

And we shall call it Fantasy Island

See above. As we stand in Ireland, 73% of non-nationals over the age of 15 are participants in the workforce. Only 59% of Irish nationals are. 62% of the total non-nationals in Ireland are gainfully employed, 52% of Irish nationals are.

donaghs

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

Loads more is acceptable. We still haven't reached the 1841 high and our population density is well below the European average. The more merrier IMO - particularly if they're young or have children, they'll pay for my pension.

Not good for our environment, in my opinion.

We can go back to a situation with most of the population living off the land in small huts and small holdings.

And people should plan for their own retirement.

If you want people to pay for you pension - Who'll pay for their pensions? And the pensions of the those etc etc. its not sustainable.

Hamachi

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

Who says I'm counting on it? It would be nice to get it in addition to the private pension after paying PRSI for a lifetime.



There have been oodles of studies done on the economic benefits of immigration. Perhaps go read some of them before throwing insults around.



See above. As we stand in Ireland, 73% of non-nationals over the age of 15 are participants in the workforce. Only 59% of Irish nationals are. 62% of the total non-nationals in Ireland are gainfully employed, 52% of Irish nationals are.

There has been ‘oodles’ of studies that confirm that certain immigrants are net contributors whilst others are detractors to the state coffers.

Given your fixation on somebody providing you with a pension, I’m sure you’ll agree that it’s prudent to target migrants who are likely to contribute, right?

Hamachi

donaghs wrote: »

And people should plan for their own retirement.

If you want people to pay for you pension - Who'll pay for their pensions? And the pensions of the those etc etc. its not sustainable.

Indeed. Some people don’t seem to understand that immigrants will also age and will require future pension provision. It’s like enacting a giant pyramid scheme.

It’s also incredibly selfish, short-sighted thinking. Namely, I don’t care about the future as long as there is somebody there to deliver a state pension to me. Make your own pension provisions.

Cilldara_2000

donaghs wrote: »

Not good for our environment, in my opinion.

We can go back to a situation with most of the population living off the land in small huts and small holdings.

And people should plan for their own retirement.

If you want people to pay for you pension - Who'll pay for their pensions? And the pensions of the those etc etc. its not sustainable.

Do all the other European countries with higher population density than Ireland have people living in small huts and trying to make a living from small holdings?

Hamachi wrote: »

There has been ‘oodles’ of studies that confirm that certain immigrants are net contributors whilst others are detractors to the state coffers.

Given your fixation on somebody providing you with a pension, I’m sure you’ll agree that it’s prudent to target migrants who are likely to contribute, right?

That's exactly what we do.

Hamachi

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

That's exactly what we do.

Which explains the inordinately high % of immigrants on the social housing list in Dublin.

I live in Fingal. It would be interesting if Fingal CC were transparent with their data..

donaghs

Hamachi wrote: »

Just to pick up on this. Ireland’s population is growing naturally by 25-30K annually. In fact, it was growing by as much as ~40K as recently as 5/6 years ago. Natural population growth of ~300K is to be expected over a decade.

It’s a good thing that we have a relatively youthful population with the tempo effect generating future momentum. It also belies this oft repeated fallacy that we need ‘loads’ of indiscriminate immigration to pay for pensions.

In an era of birth control, not sure what you mean by "natural population growth"? If you look definitions, a natural population increase means more people being born each year than are dying. Immigration/emigration is not taken into account.

If you look at the birth figures for Ireland, you can see the decrease in birth rate, and actual birth figures. Here's births from the CSO
2016: 63897
2017: 62053
2018: 61016
2019: 59796
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-vsys/vitalstatisticsyearlysummary2019/, https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-vsys/vitalstatisticsyearlysummary2017/ ,etc

Cilldara_2000

Hamachi wrote: »

Which explains the inordinately high % of immigrants on the social housing list in Dublin.

I live in Fingal. It would be interesting if Fingal CC were transparent with their data..

As I said above and nobody bother replying to, the breakdown of the waiting list is irrelevant. It does not state who actually received the housing. There's every chance that this particular system is working fine and the reason that there's so many non-nationals on this waiting list is because Irish nationals are prioritised. The most recent census data does not indicate a disproportionate number of non-nationals in terms of actual allocation of social housing.

Cilldara_2000

donaghs wrote: »

In an era of birth control, not sure what you mean by "natural population growth"? If you look definitions, a natural population increase means more people being born each year than are dying. Immigration/emigration is not taken into account.

If you look at the birth figures for Ireland, you can see the decrease in birth rate, and actual birth figures. Here's births from the CSO
2016: 63897
2017: 62053
2018: 61016
2019: 59796
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-vsys/vitalstatisticsyearlysummary2019/, https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-vsys/vitalstatisticsyearlysummary2017/ ,etc

These figures also include births of children to immigrants. The first link states that 77% of births were to Irish mothers. Above I quoted that Irish nationals make up 88% of the population. Take them out of it, the natural population increase doesn't look near as hot.

Hamachi

donaghs wrote: »

In an era of birth control, not sure what you mean by "natural population growth"? If you look definitions, a natural population increase means more people being born each year than are dying. Immigration/emigration is not taken into account.

If you look at the birth figures for Ireland, you can see the decrease in birth rate, and actual birth figures. Here's births from the CSO
2016: 63897
2017: 62053
2018: 61016
2019: 59796
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-vsys/vitalstatisticsyearlysummary2019/, https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-vsys/vitalstatisticsyearlysummary2017/ ,etc

Natural population growth is Births - Deaths. Ireland has a fairly youthful population, which means the death rate is also low. Hence, the ~30K natural increase.

Also, the birth rate was extraordinarily high between 2005-2015. We’ll reap the demographic dividend of that in the next 20 years as those children mature into adulthood. Our demographic future is pretty healthy and is not dependent on ‘loads’ of immigration.

Hamachi

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

As I said above and nobody bother replying to, the breakdown of the waiting list is irrelevant. It does not state who actually received the housing. There's every chance that this particular system is working fine and the reason that there's so many non-nationals on this waiting list is because Irish nationals are prioritised. The most recent census data does not indicate a disproportionate number of non-nationals in terms of actual allocation of social housing.

So basically, you have no idea who is prioritized and are throwing out your own theory. Got it. That’s allowed on a discussion forum.

Cilldara_2000

Hamachi wrote: »

So basically, you have no idea who is prioritized and are throwing out your own theory. Got it. That’s allowed on a discussion forum.

Well I can at least point to who was already resident in social housing in the 2016 census. What can you point to? Nothing only the waiting list.

Hamachi

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

These figures also include births of children to immigrants. The first link states that 77% of births were to Irish mothers. Above I quoted that Irish nationals make up 88% of the population. Take them out of it, the natural population increase doesn't look near as hot.

Another 3% are from the UK, presumably mostly NI. A further 10%-11% from the EU. I don’t think anybody here has issues with people migrating within the CTA or availing of the intra-EU freedom of movement.

Hamachi

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

Well I can at least point to who was already resident in social housing in the 2016 census. What can you point to? Nothing only the waiting list.

Your figures refer to Irish nationals ‘all-up’. Can you provide the % in social housing that are naturalized citizens? Now that would be an interesting metric..

tom1ie

donaghs wrote: »

Immigrants that pay taxes firstly.

Secondly, you don't see a flaw in the maths? As the populations grows you'll need ever more children or immigrants to pay ever more pensions. Mad that you still hear this nonsense spouted on the radio and tv.

From a wider climate and resources perspective, the world needs less people.
Just look at the graph.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population

Oh I don't doubt what you say at all.
Of course there's a flaw in pensions, but how do you propose we pay for the state pension in the future if we dont go down the immigration route, to get tax paying immigrants to pay for the retired people?
Unless you are proposing to get rid of pensions entirely and let people prepare for retired life themselves or just not retire.

tom1ie

Hamachi wrote: »

Natural population growth is Births - Deaths. Ireland has a fairly youthful population, which means the death rate is also low. Hence, the ~30K natural increase.

Also, the birth rate was extraordinarily high between 2005-2015. We’ll reap the demographic dividend of that in the next 20 years as those children mature into adulthood. Our demographic future is pretty healthy and is not dependent on ‘loads’ of immigration.

Will there be enough Irish born people paying tax in 30 years time to pay for the state pension (adjusted for inflation etc) at the same rate it is now, for all the pensioners that are living longer?

Hamachi

tom1ie wrote: »

Will there be enough Irish born people paying tax in 30 years time to pay for the state pension (adjusted for inflation etc) at the same rate it is now, for all the pensioners that are living longer?

Yes, if we maintain a replacement or near replacement fertility rate, which can of course be supplemented by judicious immigration i.e. skilled migrants who participate in the labor force.

Conversely, we don’t need people who are likely to end up on social housing lists.

Put the conditions and supports in place for Irish people and those already living here to have kids and there’s simply no need for the pyramid scheme pension system that some foolhardy people are advocating on this thread.

tom1ie

Hamachi wrote: »

Yes, if we maintain a replacement or near replacement fertility rate, which can of course be supplemented by judicious immigration i.e. skilled migrants who participate in the labor force.

Conversely, we don’t need people who are likely to end up on social housing lists.

Put the conditions and supports in place for Irish people and those already living here to have kids and there’s simply no need for the pyramid scheme pension system that some foolhardy people are advocating on this thread.

So what do we put in place if not the state pension?

Hamachi

tom1ie wrote: »

So what do we put in place if not the state pension?

Mandatory pension contributions are coming whether we like it or not. Some countries like Germany and Austria, with a significantly older population pyramid than Ireland have already partially implemented this. It’s inevitable that this will be a feature of life across Europe- you pay for your own pension.

I feel like there’s a generational gap here. It seems like older generations of posters have the expectation that there will always be a state pension. I’m in my late 30s; I feel like people my age and younger have no such expectation and fully expect to fund their own retirement.

Another point that I believe is generational is the attitude to work. It seems like older generations can’t wait to exit the workforce at 60 or 65. On the other hand, I love my work. It’s stimulating, intellectually challenging, and pushes me out of my comfort zone every day. I have no intentions of retiring at 65, assuming I’m physically and cognitively sound. Many of my peers who work in industries like tech and finance hold similar attitudes to their work. It enhances our lives. Don’t expect that future generations are waiting for retirement at 65 with bated breath. It’s simply not the case.

tom1ie

Hamachi wrote: »

Mandatory pension contributions are coming whether we like it or not. Some countries like Germany and Austria, with a significantly older population pyramid than Ireland have already partially implemented this. It’s inevitable that this will be a feature of life across Europe- you pay for your own pension.

I feel like there’s a generational gap here. It seems like older generations of posters have the expectation that there will always be a state pension. I’m in my late 30s; I feel like people my age and younger have no such expectation and fully expect to fund their own retirement.

Another point that I believe is generational is the attitude to work. It seems like older generations can’t wait to exit the workforce at 60 or 65. On the other hand, I love my work. It’s stimulating, intellectually challenging, and pushes me out of my comfort zone every day. I have no intentions of retiring at 65, assuming I’m physically and cognitively sound. Many of my peers who work in industries like tech and finance hold similar attitudes to their work. It enhances our lives. Don’t expect that future generations are waiting for retirement at 65 with bated breath. It’s simply not the case.

I, like yourself, am in my late 30's. I have a dB pension but it has the assumption built into the pension that the state pension will contribute towards my weekly pension amount.

I fully expect to have access to the state pension I am currently paying taxes towards.

beggars_bush

Hamachi wrote: »

Mandatory pension contributions are coming whether we like it or not. Some countries like Germany and Austria, with a significantly older population pyramid than Ireland have already partially implemented this. It’s inevitable that this will be a feature of life across Europe- you pay for your own pension.

I feel like there’s a generational gap here. It seems like older generations of posters have the expectation that there will always be a state pension. I’m in my late 30s; I feel like people my age and younger have no such expectation and fully expect to fund their own retirement.

Another point that I believe is generational is the attitude to work. It seems like older generations can’t wait to exit the workforce at 60 or 65. On the other hand, I love my work. It’s stimulating, intellectually challenging, and pushes me out of my comfort zone every day. I have no intentions of retiring at 65, assuming I’m physically and cognitively sound. Many of my peers who work in industries like tech and finance hold similar attitudes to their work. It enhances our lives. Don’t expect that future generations are waiting for retirement at 65 with bated breath. It’s simply not the case.

Things change as you get older and you want life to slow down