Vaccine Megathread - See OP for threadbans

Responder XY

The only way this decision makes sense is if either - they have so many alternative doses available that this makes no difference to the objective of having 80% of adults with at least 1 dose done by end June or the risk to covid from under 60s is less than the 1 in a million risk from the vaccine.

Neither seem likely - so this seems like a very bad decision. 

Strazdas

ACitizenErased wrote: »

All AZ clinics cancelled tomorrow. That's the 180k this week out the window.
https://twitter.com/RobOHanrahan/status/1381690755614392323?s=20

That actually makes a lot of sense. They need time to regroup and reschedule everything - it shouldn't take long though for AZ vaccinations to recommence.

CptMackey

funnydoggy wrote: »

Is Parc Ui Chaoimh using any other vaccine other than AZ atm does anyone know?

They have used Astra for the last few weeks. Not sure if they changed in the last few days

Doctor Jimbob

Strazdas wrote: »

The good news for you is that the level of immunity is very high even after a single dose of AZ and your risk of being hospitalised with Covid is now extremely low.

Rather than stretching the second dose to 16 weeks, could we consider one dose of AZ to be fully vaccinated?

ACitizenErased

If you took the vaccine yesterday, get it as normal in 12 weeks.
But do not take it tomorrow!
That's essentially the advice

stephenjmcd

180-190k this week and next to start with don't stand a chance now.

HSE going to need a few days to work all this out logistically.

ACitizenErased

ACitizenErased wrote: »

NIAC has nothing to do with the supply. Glynn just said that it's up to the HSE to decide and they're working on it now.

I'm not suggesting that they manage the supply. But they have made it clear that the availability of other vaccines influenced their decision. They know the make up of our supply, and that AZ accounts for one fifth of it. If they only had AZ, the decision would have been different (and Dr. Glynn has said exactly this just now).

Jim Gazebo

Indestructable wrote: »

From now. Not being administered tomorrow.

My point is, will the appointment be cancelled or a different one be administered

Indestructable

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Rather than stretching the second dose to 16 weeks, could we consider one dose of AZ to be fully vaccinated?

They are hoping studies come in with mixing vaccines, most likely the second dose will be Pfizer now. There are ongoing studies with mixing the vaccines and it looks like doing so will be safe and effective.

I get the distinct impression that they would pull AstraZeneca altogether now if they could.

Strazdas

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Rather than stretching the second dose to 16 weeks, could we consider one dose of AZ to be fully vaccinated?

I've seen stats that show that after a few weeks of the first AZ dose, a person's chances of contracting Covid are extremely low - but it would certainly be wise to get the second dose just to be on the safe side and to it by the book.

ACitizenErased

Flying Fox wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that they manage the supply. But they have made it clear that the availability of other vaccines influenced their decision. They know the make up of our supply, and that AZ accounts for one fifth of it. If they only had AZ, the decision would have been different (and Dr. Glynn has said exactly this just now).

She may have said that but it has nothing to do with them. I'm watching it, Glynn said they don't know yet what the HSE will do, they may swap cohorts, they may re-allocate, etc. It can't have 'influenced their decision' if the HSE haven't even decided.

lbj666

I gotta say looking at those bar charts other than the under 30s, those margins of caution are very very wide.

But I haven't heard any mention of specific cases in particular demographics is women under 50 or whatever, hasn't come into their final analysis at all it seems, probably from lack of data.

Now in truth we'll only have the UK to rely on for more data if even.

Tyrone212

My Uncle is his 60s was due to have his vaccine tomorrow. Oxford AstraZeneca one, he got a text in this past hour stating it was cancelled due to national review. His age group was unaffected by todays announcement so he's disappointed not to be getting it tomorrow.

namloc1980

funnydoggy wrote: »

Is Parc Ui Chaoimh using any other vaccine other than AZ atm does anyone know?

They only have AZ as far as I know.

vienne86

Hmmm. I get the feeling that this could all change again in the next week or so.

funnydoggy

Beanybabog

Icantthinkof1 wrote: »

What an absolute sh!tshow was due to get my 2nd AZ dose early next month (12weeks)
Are they recommending people wait until the 16weeks as that brings us to June- aren’t the U.K. results out then from the case studies they did with the mixed dosing?
As a hcw with a high risk medical condition this announcement is so upsetting but my condition is manageable I cannot imagine how others in cohort 4 feel hearing this news this evening
These people who are extremely vulnerable to the effects of Covid and who have been cocooning for the best part of a year now won’t even be fully vaccinated until July if even at all now

I think you can get it as scheduled? Very high risk and high risk under 60s get dose 2 it as planned was my understanding?

ACitizenErased

ACitizenErased wrote: »

She may have said that but it has nothing to do with them. I'm watching it, Glynn said they don't know yet what the HSE will do, they may swap cohorts, they may re-allocate, etc. It can't have 'influenced their decision' if the HSE haven't even decided.

Glynn has literally just said that the numbers of orders placed fed into the decision.

He said the HSE is working now on reallocating it, which of course they have to do following this recommendation. There's no 'may' about it.

Turtwig

stephenjmcd wrote: »

180-190k this week and next to start with don't stand a chance now.

HSE going to need a few days to work all this out logistically.

I would be optimistic though that we could catch up quite quickly. To date supply has being the constraint. If this means AZ is held back a few days we should have no real problem in catching up.

My biggest concern here is what happens if J & J produces the risk outcome as AZ? We're reliant on that single dose vaccine to do a lot of heavy lifting for our later summer targets. If that one get's age restricted things could get very awkward.

Heaven forbid the supply of the mRNA vaccines gets disrupted.

lbj666

Whatever about the adverse impact this will have on rollout or lack of, each time something this happens we lose a contingency plan.

I will keep banging the broaden the Pfizer dosing interval drum til my arm falls off.

Jim Gazebo

What vaccine is the city hall in cork doing?

HBC08

Icantthinkof1 wrote: »

What an absolute sh!tshow was due to get my 2nd AZ dose early next month (12weeks)
Are they recommending people wait until the 16weeks as that brings us to June- aren’t the U.K. results out then from the case studies they did with the mixed dosing?
As a hcw with a high risk medical condition this announcement is so upsetting but my condition is manageable I cannot imagine how others in cohort 4 feel hearing this news this evening
These people who are extremely vulnerable to the effects of Covid and who have been cocooning for the best part of a year now won’t even be fully vaccinated until July if even at all now

Im in the same boat in that im a HCW and was due my 2nd jab in 3 weeks.
However if im reading it right then you should have your second still on the 12 week mark as you say you have a high risk medical condition?

Turtwig

Icantthinkof1 wrote: »

What an absolute sh!tshow was due to get my 2nd AZ dose early next month (12weeks)
Are they recommending people wait until the 16weeks as that brings us to June- aren’t the U.K. results out then from the case studies they did with the mixed dosing?
As a hcw with a high risk medical condition this announcement is so upsetting but my condition is manageable I cannot imagine how others in cohort 4 feel hearing this news this evening
These people who are extremely vulnerable to the effects of Covid and who have been cocooning for the best part of a year now won’t even be fully vaccinated until July if even at all now

Their guidance at them moment is that if you've got a high risk medical condition and are under 60 you get the second dose per the normal 12 week schedule. Only those under 60 without high risk medical conditions are on the extended 16 week hiatus.

funnydoggy

Dr. Lorraine Nolan looked kinda offended answering the vaccine choice question

Qrt

Won't CureVac likely be introduced during the summer months? Lads, we'll be grand like.

JTMan

Someone I know is under 60, already received their first dose of AZ, got the dose because they are a healthcare worker BUT also has a high-risk medical condition.

She was due to get their second dose in around 2 weeks time (12 weeks) but will probably now get pushed to 16 weeks.

She was not registered under "high risk medical condition", she was are registered under "healthcare worker". i.e. the HSE do not have a record of the condition.

Who does one contact, in these circumstances, to ensure they do not get moved from 12 weeks to 16 weeks?

Thanks.

Beasty

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Rather than stretching the second dose to 16 weeks, could we consider one dose of AZ to be fully vaccinated?

There are 2 angles to this

Your 1st dose provides 80% or so protection. Hence there remains a residual risk that the 2nd dose covers (and we know none will be 100% effective, but getting to say 95% on illness and as near as dammit to 100% on preventing death is a pretty robust position)

However does pushing out the 2nd dose actually provide more cover overall? Does it act as a "booster" and give you an additional 12 weeks (versus a 4 week 2nd dose) of "protection"? I do not know the answers but getting to that 80% or so quite quickly and hopefully nearly 100% 4 months later with a longer lasting protection is not necessarily a bad outcome

funnydoggy

Qrt wrote: »

Won't CureVac likely be introduced during the summer months? Lads, we'll be grand like.

We need to get the country back up and running as soon as possible. I know we'll be fine in the end but this stuff is just a complete pain in the hole.

Qrt

funnydoggy wrote: »

We need to get the country back up and running as soon as possible. I know we'll be fine in the end but this stuff is just a complete pain in the hole.

Oh well aware, imo everything should be open by June, bar offices and other stuff that can be done from home. The idea that non-essential retail and hospitality has to remain closed until everybody is vaccinated is stupid. Once the over 50s are done, open on up!

stephenjmcd

JTMan wrote: »

Someone I know is under 60, already received their first dose of AZ, got the dose because they are a healthcare worker BUT also has a high-risk medical condition.

She was due to get their second dose in around 2 weeks time (12 weeks) but will probably now get pushed to 16 weeks.

She was not registered under "high risk medical condition", she was are registered under "healthcare worker". i.e. the HSE do not have a record of the condition.

Who does one contact, in these circumstances, to ensure they do not get moved from 12 weeks to 16 weeks?

Thanks.

Nobody I think. The HSE will contact people regarding scheduling

Bridge93

What’s the likelihood we get a roadmap reboot. Start vaccinating under 60s with the supply of other vaccines now and continue the over 60s with AZ. Otherwise by the time we reach the under 60s we’ll have used a whole heap of Pfizer etc and still have a mountain of AZ on hand

Miike

JTMan wrote: »

Someone I know is under 60, already received their first dose of AZ, got the dose because they are a healthcare worker BUT also has a high-risk medical condition.

She was due to get their second dose in around 2 weeks time (12 weeks) but will probably now get pushed to 16 weeks.

She was not registered under "high risk medical condition", she was are registered under "healthcare worker". i.e. the HSE do not have a record of the condition.

Who does one contact, in these circumstances, to ensure they do not get moved from 12 weeks to 16 weeks?

Thanks.

If HSE; contact line manager who will inform the local vaccination coordinator who will advise further on what actions need to be taken. I would imagine she will need a doctor letter stating she fits under the at-risk category.

ddarcy

Beasty wrote: »

There are 2 angles to this

Your 1st dose provides 80% or so protection. Hence there remains a residual risk that the 2nd dose covers (and we know none will be 100% effective, but getting to say 95% on illness and as near as dammit to 100% on preventing death is a pretty robust position)

However does pushing out the 2nd dose actually provide more cover overall? Does it act as a "booster" and give you an additional 12 weeks (versus a 4 week 2nd dose) of "protection"? I do not know the answers but getting to that 80% or so quite quickly and hopefully nearly 100% 4 months later with a longer lasting protection is not necessarily a bad outcome

Ok need some correction to this. When AZ actually did a competent/ rigorous trial, two doses had 76% efficacy (btw that is still dropping as the US finds more things wrong with the data). From what I’ve read one/two doses don’t have a major difference at all in efficacy. You’re looking high 60’s% for one and potentially up to 76% (and falling) for 2 doses. The US is no longer going to use it going forward as well. Albeit they have loads of Pfizer and Moderna.

Miike

ddarcy wrote: »

Ok need some correction to this. When AZ actually did a competent/ rigorous trial, two doses had 76% efficacy (btw that is still dropping as the US finds more things wrong with the data). From what I’ve read one/two doses don’t have a major difference at all in efficacy. You’re looking high 60’s% for one and potentially up to 76% (and falling) for 2 doses. The US is no longer going to use it going forward as well. Albeit they have loads of Pfizer and Moderna.

It's worth noting the dominant variants during each of the clinical trials also and where they were conducted, and how this effects the efficacy values. As much as I detest VOX please watch the following video which is extremely succinct in explaining this, far better than I could even try.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3odScka55A

Kivaro

Beasty wrote: »

There are 2 angles to this

Your 1st dose provides 80% or so protection. Hence there remains a residual risk that the 2nd dose covers (and we know none will be 100% effective, but getting to say 95% on illness and as near as dammit to 100% on preventing death is a pretty robust position)

However does pushing out the 2nd dose actually provide more cover overall? Does it act as a "booster" and give you an additional 12 weeks (versus a 4 week 2nd dose) of "protection"? I do not know the answers but getting to that 80% or so quite quickly and hopefully nearly 100% 4 months later with a longer lasting protection is not necessarily a bad outcome

I think that was the HSE game plan all along. I posted a couple of weeks ago that there would be a disruption in the Astrazeneca vaccination rollout due to the clotting issues; it was inevitable, and the HSE knew that this day was coming. But still they kept pushing it out because of the protection that the first dose provides. It is probably another reason why they went with 2 full doses rather than a partial and then full dose, which produced better results in clinical trials. They wanted that 80% or so protection. It's all a numbers game, but I understand why, as it brings us closer to the goal of herd immunity/community protection.

Turtwig

Miike wrote: »

It's worth noting the dominant variants during each of the clinical trials also and where they were conducted, and how this effects the efficacy values. As much as I detest VOX please watch the following video which is extremely succinct in explaining this, far better than I could even try.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3odScka55A

Completely off topic but why do you detest Vox?

ACitizenErased

Worth noting the HPRA just confirmed at the conference that they haven't actually fully established what type of clot the case in Ireland was. Paul Cullen asked about this and the HPRA said they're still investigating and it's still 'a case of special interest'

funnydoggy

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Worth noting the HPRA just confirmed at the conference that they haven't actually fully established what type of clot the case in Ireland was. Paul Cullen asked about this and the HPRA said they're still investigating and it's still 'a case of special interest'

So it might not have been that super dangerous one?

Miike

Turtwig wrote: »

Completely off topic but why do you detest Vox?

I often find to be sensationalist on a lot of topics. Well, I did anyway. I haven't really given them much attention following a spate of sensationalist reporting.

ACitizenErased

funnydoggy wrote: »

So it might not have been that super dangerous one?

Theres a few dangerous ones they just don't know which

I have seen this discussed on several threads and thought it probably deserves a thread of its own.

When we have high numbers vaccinated, do you think that ALL restrictions will be removed? No masks, no distancing. Pubs, clubs, hotels buzzing. Croke Park sold out etc.

If not, why not? What else can we do once people are vaccinated? We can’t afford to keep locking down forever.

And yet, I don’t get the feeling at all that we’re coming towards the end. I’ve not heard anybody from government, NPHET, media, experts say that normality will return soon.

All I’ve really heard is talk of new variants, another 20 weeks, maybe outdoor hospitality later in summer and a “degree” of normality returning.

I remember a year ago thinking it was ridiculous to keep locking down and waiting on a vaccine. Now I’m not even so sure that vaccines will end this.

funnydoggy

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Theres a few dangerous ones they just don't know which

Ah okay.

This is all a clusterfûck. I might step away from this thread for a while

Kivaro

ddarcy wrote: »

Ok need some correction to this. When AZ actually did a competent/ rigorous trial, two doses had 76% efficacy (btw that is still dropping as the US finds more things wrong with the data). From what I’ve read one/two doses don’t have a major difference at all in efficacy. You’re looking high 60’s% for one and potentially up to 76% (and falling) for 2 doses. The US is no longer going to use it going forward as well. Albeit they have loads of Pfizer and Moderna.

I think we need to define what the 76% number actually means. This percentage is how effective it is at preventing any kind of symptomatic Covid. We need to realise that Astrazeneca remains 100% effective against severe Covid and/or death (except for side effects). This is important to remember.

hmmm

Bridge93 wrote: »

What’s the likelihood we get a roadmap reboot. Start vaccinating under 60s with the supply of other vaccines now and continue the over 60s with AZ. Otherwise by the time we reach the under 60s we’ll have used a whole heap of Pfizer etc and still have a mountain of AZ on hand

That's what I don't quite understand about those saying this won't impact on the rollout.

If we are keeping AZ for the 60-70 year old group, isn't that going to delay them getting a vaccine? Will people be happy if (say) the 50 year olds have their vaccinations finished before the 60 year olds.

And if we do use all available vaccines for the 60 year old groups, we're going to be left with deliveries of a vaccine we can't use.

ACitizenErased

hmmm wrote: »

That's what I don't quite understand about those saying this won't impact on the rollout.

If we are keeping AZ for the 60-70 year old group, isn't that going to delay them getting a vaccine? Will people be happy if (say) the 50 year olds have their vaccinations finished before the 60 year olds.

And if we do use all available vaccines for the 60 year old groups, we're going to be left with deliveries of a vaccine we can't use.

They haven't taken it into account. Going by what Glynn said it's now a HSE problem.

hmmm

ACitizenErased wrote: »

They haven't taken it into account. Going by what Glynn said it's now a HSE problem.

Slap a warning label on it and make it open access for anyone who wants it.

Turtwig

ACitizenErased wrote: »

They haven't taken it into account. Going by what Glynn said it's now a HSE problem.

Feel a bit for the HSE here. Their various helplines and contact points are going to get hammered this week with queries in relation to all these changes. All of which they won't have the answers to worked out for a while.

WoollyRedHat

From watching the conference it seems there may be provision for those under 60 to take AZ vaccine still, once they accept the risk as outlined to them individually, relative to their age group, that was my interpretation anyway. Presumably a waiver like that of which was previously alluded to in this thread would have to be devised in such an eventuality.

They also stated this decision was being made out of abundance of caution and is tied in to the current epidemiological situation i.e. if rates of Covid were higher, they would have in all likelihood have gone lower in terms of age recommendation to take AZ vaccine, weighing up the current risk of getting Covid relative to the age groups and risk of this rare severe adverse reaction to taking AZ vaccine and working off the relative data available to them currently

astrofool

I'm just hoping they adjust the rollout cohorts quickly and get started with mRNA for under 60's and have a slower pace with AZ for the over 60's (and not keep using Pfizer and Moderna on them).

ACitizenErased

Turtwig wrote: »

Feel a bit for the HSE here. Their various helplines and contact points are going to get hammered this week with queries in relation to all these changes. All of which they won't have the answers to worked out for a while.

Completely agree with you. This is going to take a while to figure out.