Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

serfboard

I had heard nothing about the new Grand Central Station in Belfast until I read about it on this thread. There's a webpage about it here. You can also see the progress on Google Maps here. According to the website:

it will be the main transport gateway to Belfast ... with rail, bus and coach connections to all parts of Northern Ireland and beyond.

Also:

work on Belfast Grand Central Station is progressing at pace with completion expected during 2025.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121796877#Comment_121796877

Yep, just to be clear, I’m not suggesting that we don’t invest in the Northern line, just that our focus and priority should be the section South of the border, which improves Dundalk, Drogheda, etc. and would likely indirectly benefit the Enterprise.

North of the border should really be financed by the UK government.

The thing about the A5, it feels okay, because we have already built a pretty excellent intercity motorway network, with just the M20 and a few other bits left to do. So giving money to NI to do the A5, specially when it improves connectivity to Donegal, feels okay.

Now imagine we were doing this before the Motorway to Cork was opened, well that wouldn’t go down well. Likewise, I don’t think financing rail projects North of the border would go down well, when so much work needs to be done on our own intercity network. 0% of our intercity network is electrified, speed restricted, sections of only single track, etc.

Fix all that first, including the southern end of the northern line and if the UK government hasn’t done the section North of the border, sure, maybe we could finance that too, though that would be a truly sad state of affairs.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121797550#Comment_121797550

There are a lot of important investments in the Irish Rail network to do before we start doing the UK's job for them. Such as track doubling, lengthening of passing loops, improving service frequency, improving line speeds, and most of all network electrification.

Maybe a bit too much emphasis on the cross-border bit: there are competing projects and priorities.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121797437#Comment_121797437

The rail element is definitely planned to open well before 2025 - Q3 2024 is the latest I’ve heard.

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121797629#Comment_121797629

Great. So you would support a motorway and railway via Sligo to stop at Bridgend, Co Donegal, at the border with Derry. Of course I'm being cynical saying this. Up here in Donegal we've had to listen to a lot of what could be called "25 County Nationalism" over the A5 and the Enterprise over the last couple of days.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121797629#Comment_121797629

and most of all network electrification

This might not be as far away as people think

The tender for the Enterprise replacement was relaunched having had no takers last time round (as far as I can see)

https://www.etenders.gov.ie/epps/cft/prepareViewCfTWS.do?resourceId=2440344

The spec reads:

This is a call to competition by IARNROD EIREANN (IE) and NORTHERN IRELAND RAILWAYS COMPANY LIMITED (NI Railways) for the establishment of an 8 Year, Single Party Framework Agreement for the procurement of new Enterprise vehicles (Enterprise Fleet Replacement Agreement) required for the replacement of the existing Enterprise Fleet (the Contract). Along with procurement of the rolling stock, the scope of the procurement process will also include a maintenance contract in respect of technical support services and spares supply in relation to the new rolling stock (Maintenance Contract). IE and NI Railways (the Contracting Entity) now wish to initially procure 8 new trainsets up to a maximum of 200m in length to operate an hourly service between Dublin and Belfast. It is planned to have the entire new fleet in service in 2028 to 2029 and to deliver the end to end journey sub 2 hours or better on the existing infrastructure. Initial traction power will be Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) Battery Electric (using the existing 1.5 kV DC OHLE) with the train designed to transition to a net zero carbon operation during its life by the removal of the diesel power generation for replacement with dual OHLE power supply equipment. The trains will operate on 1600mm track gauge, will operate in full length formation of a maximum of 200m in length and will be required to meet other gauging requirements of the Irish Rail - NI Railways network.

Couple of take aways, the contract is to start with DC OHLE and a Diesel Motors / Batteries and eventually migrate to either full OHLE or OHLE / Batteries within the 8 year contract.

The only issue I can see with this is that Irish rail want trainsets as opposed to locomotive + passenger coaches. This is going to be a problem as I don't think anyone really makes them with multiple traction power options/combinations.

It also says replacement with "dual OHLE power supply equipment" so one would assume the new supply will be AC, that tightens up options even more.

I think the only company that offers a locomotive that ticks all those boxes is Stadler (EURO9000) but its a bit long 24m, which will impact the 200M limit for the train.

I think Irish rail will come to the realisation that the OHLE will need to be installed and running first (Which could expedite this even faster) before they can purchase new rolling stock, as the battery/ICE/AC/DC combo on a trainset is far to complicated and niche for any manufacturer to invest in given we just want 8 sets.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121798096#Comment_121798096

Calm down: I was referring to the R of I paying for rail improvements north of Newry. The A5 is another matter.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121798366#Comment_121798366

Unfortunately I suspect they will start out as Bimode Diesel + 1.5kv DC (under the Dart line). Something like the Hitachi Class 800’s in the UK, though say 7 car set to come in under 200m. Once the AC is in place between Drogheda and Belfast, swap the Diesel units out for 25kv AC/1.5kv DC bimode.

Pretty much all the major manufacturers have train sets like this, Hitachi, Stadler, Alstom, CAF.

Also check out the Class 745, 12 car FLIRTS, they are a very flexible trainsets.

cgcsb

Did the tender specify a maximum speed for the trainsets?

I see that the wicklow/rosslare capacity enhancement project is to kick off soon.

It would be great if we could get the 4North project and electrifying Drogheda to Newry off the ground ASAP, perhaps teams that worked on the earlier stages of DART+ can be redistributed now that those projects are moving to a construction stage stoon.

I wouldn't be all too fussed about north of Newry at that stage, let them change trains in Newry even and just buy electric trains to serve Newry-Dublin if it saves a layer of complexity.

KrisW1001

It's hard to buy inter-city trains that can't do 200km/h these days. I suspect IÉ will have an eye on using this procurement as a trial for replacing the 201-hauled trainsets for passenger service.

One perennial bugbear with Enterprise was the need for special trains with special signalling. Is NIR adopting the same system (ETCS) that we're going with down here? That alone would make it much easier to keep service levels up: while I know the reasons why, it's still madness that a Cork-Dublin trainset cannot fill in on the Dublin-Belfast route

goingnowhere

Spec required is 180kph

While 200kph is easy enough these days two problems

1. Crash structure requirement add weight and take up space, bear in mind we are stuck with UK regs
2. For the same installed power a train geared for 180kph will accelerate faster than one geared for 200kph

Given the nature of the route, which is full of corners 200kph doesn't seem sensible

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121802893#Comment_121802893

But the all Ireland rail review calls for about 60% of the route to be built on a new alignment from scratch by 2040 so not catering for 200kmh would be short sighted.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803001#Comment_121803001

I feel there are many elements of the AIRR that sound more like a wish list and have very little chance of happening this side of the next 50 years!

There are definitely parts of the review that are completely sensible and likely to happen, but then there are more then a few items that seem way out there.

Personally I take it more of a high level strategy that might happen over the next 50 years at best, rather then the next 20.

180km/h should easily allow for a 1h30m journey time, which seems very reasonable to me.

serfboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803001#Comment_121803001

An awful lot of our railways could do with being built on new alignments, or at least having their alignments straightened out.

When we built the motorway network we built on new alignments - can't see why we couldn't do the same for some of the railway lines.

goingnowhere

The AIRR is a shopping list and unless there is a dramatic change in politics in this country, and I don't mean the parties involved but an end the parish focus grandstanding against large scale infrastructure projects are going nowhere quickly...

The new straight alignment at Banbridge would change the game entirely, shorter and higher speed

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121802893#Comment_121802893

It’s somewhat nuts that NIR isn’t able to decide its own standards for this kind of thing: it’s already an non-interoperable rail network with the rest of the UK due to the break of gauge. If the signalling issue is being fixed for new stock, then the sensible thing would be to develop a common set of requirements between NIR and IÉ so that both operators would save on procurement (let alone allowing stock to cover services on each others’ networks) - NIR would be the big beneficiary of this, but it would also help down South.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121803713#Comment_121803713

Irish Rail is going over to ECTS as a train protection system. Stands to reason the NIR should do so as well. I suppose some Brexit ideologue nutters will find reasons to object however.

KrisW1001

Logically, they should, but "Logic" and "Northern Ireland" don't meet often.

Actually, I read recently that whatever entity runs the British rail network these days has also mandated ETCS, but because the service operators have had difficulty retrofitting existing trains (or, as this is modern Britain, "have been starved of the money to do it"), the policy there is that new stock will use ETCS, but the existing signalling will run alongside the new ETCS system for a longer period until those older trains are either converted or retired.

goingnowhere

Irish Rail thought it was too good for ETCS, tried to build its own solution which failed and is now back to ETCS L1

NI will likely follow GB practice due regulations and go with ETCS L2, ETCS L2 fitted trains will work fine on ETCS L1, the IE spec for L1 on train kit requires an upgrade path to L2

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121798928#Comment_121798928

Don't the FLIRTS use a Jacobs Bogie? Will they work on our railways?

I know they can be outfitted with a Diesel Generator but don't think they can have battery packs. (Could be wrong) I cannot see them being developed for just 8 sets either.

goingnowhere

Jacobs bogies/articulated trains are nothing new, in fact we had them in Dublin in the late 1930's... The new DART fleet will be articulated

Stadler are probably the only company who would bid as they seem to specialise in quirky once off bespoke trains

Could go with a FLIRT, 110mph with 2 'power pack' modules and then remove them and replace with a single seated module later giving you a dual voltage train within the length specification

I've experienced a FLIRT doing a 0-160kph in 72 seconds on dry level track under 15kV AC, its a great platform with great performance which really helps north of Drogheda where it gets hilly

KrisW1001

The tender requirement of 180 km/h running rules out the FLIRT 160 family. The 200 variant would work, though.

This is a tiny order, and the only way we'd get good pricing is if we pitch it as an opportinity for a larger fleet renewal on both sides of the border. The Rotem DMUs have legs in them yet, but the diesel locos used in the Republic are now 30 years old, and while I know almost nothing about NIR's fleet, I can't imagine it being younger than IÉ's.

As I said above, now that the signalling barrier is going away, it's in the interest of both companies to move towards purchasing interoperable stock: being able to lease trains from the other side of the border to meet medium-term shortfalls would help both companies, given that there's no other handy source of Irish-guage trainsets.

goingnowhere

The only option would be a order for Cork Dublin and Dublin Belfast to a common spec, that would get you to to 30 sets if you add on a little for Tralee and Limerick, plans is for 2 trains an hour to Cork, 30 would get interest

And funny story but Translink can lease trains to Irish Rail (and has done many times) Translink cannot lease from Irish Rail or indeed anyone else for some reason. Its handled currently as a handshake agreement we loan you something you give us something

bk

Perhaps a framework like they do for the buses might help with interest.

A framework for the option to purchase 30 sets over 20 years (or whatever), with an immediate firm order for 8 sets.

Actually now that I think of it, that is what they are doing for the new DART+ sets. It is a framework for like 750, but with a firm order for 200 or so to start with.

But in the end, we might just have to pay a bit more, just the reality of our relatively small and quirky rail network.

Pete_Cavan

Rail infrastructure here should be managed on an all island basis, as with the electricity grid.

Consonata

https://fxtwitter.com/SDLPlive/status/1762419736548143508?s=20

Very strange that SF isn't all over this, given it wants an All Ireland economy. Shame, it would be great for one of the parties to actually commit to funding the thing for as long as they are in government.

loyatemu

Fully costed implementation plan?

I'm still aghast looking at that map that they're proposing spending vast sums of money building single line non-electric railways.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823119#Comment_121823119

The AIPP is basically an outline of possible new developments. In a way it more a wish list than anything else. A commitment to fund it fully would probably leave little room for other public investments, so people need to cop on.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822201#Comment_121822201

The electricity system not all-ireland. There is one interconenctor and a second one planned. The main benefit is to facilitate trade in electricity. The management of the system is separate for RoI and NI. And there is a lot of cost-saving cooperation between Irish Rail and NIR without having a single management structure

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823323#Comment_121823323

The electricity system is all-Island. The Republic and NI operate on a single synchronous AC grid: Eirgrid. The rest of the UK is on its own separate electrical grid, the National Grid.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121823323#Comment_121823323

Given it's what has be assessed as the best projects for the national rail network to invest in, commiting to 1bn pa for it is relatively modest for the benefits achieved from it. It's not all railways to Cavan. The majority of funding is towards existing rail alignments, and new railways that have fairly decent CBAs