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Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    It is funding the operating cost.

    The additional rolling stock for this timetable increase will be a mix of ICRs released as a result of the set reformations happening with the introduction of the 41 intermediate ICR coaches, and CAF units from NI.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,441 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    Agreed. The cryptic phrase "The additional resourcing will allow for increased capacity for Iarnród Éireann and Translink NI with their respective fleet networks" doesn't sound like "New train-sets being bought"; much more a case of stretch what you already have a bit further. Anyway 2 x €12.5m wouldn't get you a lot in terms of carriages etc.

    To be honest, reading the press release both Taoiseach and Tánaiste wax lyrical on the €600m going on the A5 and on the Carlingford Narrow Water Bridge. The bit about ramping up the Enterprise to an hourly service has the feel of crumbs from the table to give the green third wheel something to point to. Which is a pity as an hourly Belfast-Dublin service is very welcome. Now all they need to do to make it really useful is it to speed it up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Any new Enterprise rolling stock is years away.

    They haven’t even gone to tender yet.

    This is a timetable enhancement using existing rolling stock that is becoming available.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,142 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Still pending the ministerial order, RWO require a SI to be signed and recent history shows the minister is very slow to sign off on anything



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    I remember reading about hourly frequencies and line speed improvements for Enterprise since the late nineties ...I'll believe this when I see it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Given that they have more trains as a result of the recent ICR fleet deliveries, it is now possible to deliver the hourly service.

    It wasn’t possible beforehand.

    The fact that the Taoiseach is announcing that they are committed to providing the necessary money to fund it this year tells me that this is going to happen.

    Any previous statements have been aspirational.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,441 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    I was wondering about this. Presumably it needs PSC Decision Gate 3 sign-off from DPER before the commencement order (SI) can be signed ?



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,851 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    That's going to be a higgledly piggedly mess of sets - will the ICRs be the few AWS-equipped ones with Premier (and if so, which services are losing Premier as a result - Waterford where it runs unclassified I presume) and have any catering in this case? 3000s certainly won't.

    The last southbound Enterprise is a miserable experience compared to the daytime ones already.

    Going to lead to a lengthy description on Seat61 anyway!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,638 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Hourly Enterprise? What about the already congested Dublin-Drogheda section? Its a fair bet that most of the passengers, especially south of the border, will be relatively local/commuter .



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I would think that they will be ICR premier sets yes.

    As for the mixed stock, well until new Enterprise stock is ordered, it's the best that they can do if they want the increased frequency.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The DART+ North project seems to suggest 1 Enterprise per hour + 2 Commuters per hour are doable, along with 9 DART's per hour (from Howth Junction in). I'd assume once the project is complete of course.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    It's not that congested for this not to be possible, but there won't be accelerated journey times.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,097 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    If you're going to be stuck in a noisy cramped railcar with no food options, what is the point of taking the train at all, vs. a coach?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    There will presumably still be a trolley service on the CAF operated departures.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    Where I live it’s still the fastest way into Dublin. The only bus near me is the 101 which is the slowest by far.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,790 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    they may have stock available, but do they have drivers? Any request for increased services in the timetable consultation seems to be met with the response "we don't have enough drivers". If they do have drivers, what exactly are they doing currently?



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Isn't the train already slightly faster, depending on where you are going? The train seems to be between 2h5m and 2h15m, while Dublin Express is 2h 20m to 2h 30m.

    I think it is a great first step to get frequency up to hourly. It seems doable for a relatively low cost and that is good news.

    Other bigger, long term projects are likely to bring speed improvements over time. DART+ North to start with, but beyond that electrification, 200km/h running, new trains, perhaps triple/quad tracking, etc.

    Of course non of that is going to happen over night, but what I do like about it is there is a plan for rolling projects and upgrades that will improve it over time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    The Belfast terminus is moving from lanyon place to the new central station, that will likely take about 5 mins off the trip. Making it an even 2hrs, with hourly departures. These are good improvements for now without spending serious money.

    What it really needs long term is a new Newry to Belfast alignment, new dedicated tracks between Drogheda and Dublin, electrification, rolling stock capable of 200kmh and half hour frequency. Pretty much what is proposed in the review. In my view this is much more important than the A5. The same money could have gone an awful long way towards providing the above



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Yes, but there are new drivers constantly being trained up, and every timetable change sees incremental service enhancements as a result of that.

    This won’t be happening until much later in the year when all of the rolling stock has entered service and by then you’ll have more drivers available to drive them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,844 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    The A5 is a critical safety concern. Also it is much closer to actually needing the funding than any Newry-Belfast realignment.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Safety requirements can be met with smaller schemes without increasing the road capacity significantly. Improving the Dublin Belfast rail service is much more critical if we've to have realistic chance of reducing road journeys and meeting the 2030 targets



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,844 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    The improved Dublin-Belfast service north of the border cannot be funded by ROI right now. There is nothing to throw funding at other than what has already been funded.

    You frame it as if there is an opportunity cost here, whereby funding the A5 means less funding for Dub-Bel line. This is completely false. Any works to improve the alignment (or lay new alignment) between Belfast and the border is ultimately a matter for NI's DFI. Until they progress it enough, it cannot be funded by us.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    That doesn't make any sense, if we can fund the A5 there's no reason why not also fund rail projects.

    Even still the same money could be used to build new track between Dublin and Drogheda which would be an improvement to the Dublin Belfast service entirely within the republic and much more important than dualling the A5 in terms of reducing emissions. Safety requirements can be met locally with much less expenditure.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The Northern Line is already the subject of an EU funded feasibility study looking at possible capacity enhancements.

    Any investment in the railway line will follow from that.

    The A5 is a project that has been put back time and time again, and with 52 deaths since 2006 needs addressing in the here and now.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,851 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The idea that patchwork quilts of unspecified safety upgrades are an option for roads like the A5 doesn't wash either.

    Multiple planning processes, procurement processes and construction timelines just make an expensive mess that delivers only part of what a full scheme could; often at the same or higher cost.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Plus if we are funding the A5, shouldn't the British really pull the finger out and fund line upgrades between Belfast and the border.

    Funding the A5 makes sense for us as it improves connectivity to Donegal, that is the real justification for that project, from our perspective, it improves connectivity between two parts of our country, even if it passes through a different jurisdiction.

    For the rail line, there isn't quiet the same justification. North of the border should really be financed by NI/UK government, we have enough to do to take care of the sections south of the Border.

    Plus perhaps selfishly as I'm a Corkonian, 2 hours already sounds pretty great for intercity travel. Sure 1h 30min would be even better, but you probably don't want to push much further then that or some folks might start thinking of commuting daily between the cities, which would be a very bad outcome.

    If there is money going, I'd rather see it being pumped into improving the Cork line. Get it down to 2 hours too, which of course would also benefit Galway, Limerick, Kerry, etc. You know, all places actually in Ireland rather then a city in another state!



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Any capacity improvements in the Northern Line will improve journey times to outer suburban stations and Drogheda and Dundalk, so they are important.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Would I be right in thinking that the extra services (hourly) can only be accommodated by the new Grand Central station? Lanyon seems pretty restricted as a through-station for terminal intercity services. Any ETA on when the new station is due to open?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭Glaceon




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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer




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