Another mass shooting in the USA - 10 killed

Snickers Man

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

The way Americans view guns is the same way the Irish view drink. Guns are endemic in American culture just the same way drink is here.

Timmy O Toole wrote: »

Irelands drinking culture is a myth. Go to Eastern Europe to see a proper drinking culture

Or watch some Scandinavians on holiday! Doing abroad what they can't do at home.

They're like the Brits or Irish on a stag in Amsterdam. (mutatis mutandis)

Tell me how

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

What's paranoid about it?
The US system is the most successful democracy in history and the model for modern democracies around the world.
It has only been in existence since the 18th century.
However it is made up of human beings and the default political system throughout history has been monarchy and tyranny and serfdom and slavery.
The founding fathers of the US knew this and this is why the 2A was written.

The population of the US was 130 times smaller when the founding fathers wrote the constitution. Electricity had yet to be harnessed and women didn't have a vote.

If they were so good, why did they need to amend the constitution just 4 years after the wrote it, and why shouldn't it be further amended given the changes in society and weapons technology since their time.

SexBobomb

GreeBo wrote: »

Is he not white? Is he not American?

You can do it Greebo !! You can find a way to blame white people for a Syrian immigrant killing white people !! I believe in you !!

The Nal

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

The US system is the most successful democracy in history and the model for modern democracies around the world.
It has only been in existence since the 18th century.

It has only been in existence since the mid 60s. Most southern black people couldn't really vote until then. Millions of people.

So America as a successful democracy have only elected 9 out of 46 presidents.

Samsonsmasher

Tell me how wrote: »

Lol.

It's true. The French Revolution and Irish Revolution were influenced by the American Revolution the first democracy of it's kind since ancient Greece and Rome.

Snickers Man

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

The threat to individual liberty never goes away. Some feared Trump or Obama would be a tyrant. There is no reason why America could not become a tyranny just as the Roman Republic did. The greatest insurance policy against that happening is the 2A.

About a thousand people SHOT DEAD by American Law enforcement every year.
About 50 American police "feloniously killed" in the course of their duty every year.

How's that freedom from government tyranny working for you? 20/1 kill ratio in favour of state agents. And that's only comparing fatal shootings by the state agents with ALL "felonious killings" of police by civilian miscreants. So we are not taking into account knees on necks (George Floyd), over exuberant choke holds (Eric Garner) or Rodney King style kickings that may result in death but are not filmed on viral videos.

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

The comma in the 2A is overlooked by gun control advocates.

The people are clearly delineated from the militia and a correct reading is that the people have the right to bear arms to prevent a tyrannical government from using the militia to take away all their other rights.

Yeah. It's all about commas. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The Nal

The 2nd amendment was created in the 1700s.

Also, this wasn't the case in the 1700s.

Percent of persons using at least one prescription drug in the past 30 days: 48.6%
Percent of persons using three or more prescription drugs in the past 30 days: 24%
Percent of persons using five or more prescription drugs in the past 30 days: 12.8%

Snickers Man

Snickers Man wrote: »

Yeah. It's all about commas. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Eats shoots and leaves

Samsonsmasher

The Nal wrote: »

It has only been in existence since the mid 60s. Most southern black people couldn't really vote until then. Millions of people.

So America as a successful democracy have only elected 9 out of 46 presidents.

The American system has been reforming since it's inception as has ours which only legalized abortion in 2018.
The political parties and media are bought and paid for by the rich and powerful in Ireland as they are in every country.
Some would say we are democracy in name only.
However American democracy and the western deomcracies flawed as they are better than any other system.
They are always vulnerable to reverting to tyranny - if WW2 doesn't teach you anything it is how readily Hitler found collaborators across occupied Europe.
There's no reason why someone would not try to destroy democracy again.
That is why the 2A was and is such a wise amendment.

Snickers Man

Underground wrote: »

Oopsie daisy.

America is such a kip, why do we try to import and adopt their cultural issues?

Well to be fair, we are quite selective about which aspects of American culture we import.

We seem to love their music, of all genres,
their TV,
movies,
technology,
dress sense (smart casual),
fast food style,
business methods,
many of their values, especially wrt free press, independent judiciary, democracy etc, none of which they invented but which they champion.

But we are discerningly impervious to much of what doesn't sit well with us.
We turn our noses up at:
their food production methods (give us McDonalds and KFC but not your homone fed beef or chlorinated chicken)
Sport (yeah ok, superbowl night is a bit of fun but how many Europeans could name 10 famous baseball players? Or NASCAR drivers?)
Their electoral process (primaries? only two choices of party at ALL levels? Electoral colleges? WTF are they all about?)
and of course
their gun culture and laws.

All democracies permit gun ownership and use.
Almost NONE permit the bearing of arms in public. It's that simple.

If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and it is, then the converse, the dogged refusal of so many countries around the world to adopt a policy so dear to the hearts of so many Americans must be a signal of the utmost contempt.

It is hard to put into words the condescension and disgust which most other democracies demonstrate by their DEEDS not their words on this issue. And if you could, the words would be so toxic you could only utter their initials in polite company.

Samsonsmasher

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

What's paranoid about it?
The US system is the most successful democracy in history and the model for modern democracies around the world.
It has only been in existence since the 18th century.
However it is made up of human beings and the default political system throughout history has been monarchy and tyranny and serfdom and slavery.
There's no reason why the ambition and greed of powerful wealthy individuals and fanatical mobs won't endanger this delicate democratic system.
The founding fathers of the US knew this and this is why the 2A was written.

I see. Now how long do you think a lot of fat boys with semi automatics and rifles are going to hold out against the might of the worlds most militarised police force(s), the national guard and even the biggest army if it gets involved? 2 hours or 3?

salmocab

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

What's paranoid about it?
The US system is the most successful democracy in history and the model for modern democracies around the world.
It has only been in existence since the 18th century.
However it is made up of human beings and the default political system throughout history has been monarchy and tyranny and serfdom and slavery.
There's no reason why the ambition and greed of powerful wealthy individuals and fanatical mobs won't endanger this delicate democratic system.
The founding fathers of the US knew this and this is why the 2A was written.

Most successful? What metric are you using on this? A country that doesn’t look after it’s worst off is not very successful in my book.

Robert ninja

Deleted User wrote: »

I see. Now how long do you think a lot of fat boys with semi automatics and rifles are going to hold out against the might of the worlds most militarised police force(s), the national guard and even the biggest army if it gets involved? 2 hours or 3?

Eric Swalwell joked how useless guns were and even joked about the US nuking their own citizens. Gun purchases spiked hard after those comments. The more the state tries to restrict people's guns the more people see the reasoning behind the 2A. You can't stop guns in the US. The genie is out of the bottle. And there's no good outcome in history of a people being disarmed by a tyrannical state. In fact the outcomes are usually disastrous.

salmocab

Robert ninja wrote: »

Eric Swalwell joked how useless guns were and even joked about the US nuking their own citizens. Gun purchases spiked hard after those comments. The more the state tries to restrict people's guns the more people see the reasoning behind the 2A. You can't stop guns in the US. The genie is out of the bottle. And there's no good outcome in history of a people being disarmed by a tyrannical state. In fact the outcomes are usually disastrous.

What tyrannical state though? Also it’s too far gone nothing can be done now is the weakest argument and is really just a way of saying we accept this.

GreeBo

SexBobomb wrote: »

You can do it Greebo !! You can find a way to blame white people for a Syrian immigrant killing white people !! I believe in you !!

Sorry to burst any bubble, but I'm not ascribing "blame" to anyone, just stating that everything I have seen says he is a) White, b) American.
If facts ain't your thang, then thats fine too.


Meanwhile, America blaming immigration. Lol
The Native Americans called, they want their country back.

BattleCorp

Cody montana wrote: »

Are Middle Eastern not Caucasian?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Jesus Christ was the only white Middle Eastern person. And probably Mary and Joseph too. :cool:

Robert ninja

salmocab wrote: »

just a way of saying we accept this.

Attacking guns is saying we accept it, because we all know that will go nowhere and not stop criminals.

Economic, political, social and psychological elements are where solutions may be found, if there are any solutions realistically reachable at this time.

Guns are bad therefore lets add more government regulation... is giving up. It's the laziest and most useless approach. Anyone who pursues it relentlessly does so because they have a personal issue with guns and don't actually care about finding solutions.

BattleCorp

Snickers Man wrote: »

About a thousand people SHOT DEAD by American Law enforcement every year.
About 50 American police "feloniously killed" in the course of their duty every year.

How's that freedom from government tyranny working for you? 20/1 kill ratio in favour of state agents.

I don't understand your attitude here. The vast majority of people shot dead by US police are shot for justifiable reasons.

Would you be happier if the score was closer to 50:50? Would that be fairer? Maybe more cops and less criminals killed?

Thankfully we're able to segue into gun control discourse nicely , once the narrative around the shooter suffered a bouleversement and became problematic.

salmocab

Robert ninja wrote: »

Attacking guns is saying we accept it, because we all know that will go nowhere and not stop criminals.

Economic, political, social and psychological elements are where solutions may be found, if there are any solutions realistically reachable at this time.

Guns are bad therefore lets add more government regulation... is giving up. It's the laziest and most useless approach. Anyone who pursues it relentlessly does so because they have a personal issue with guns and don't actually care about finding solutions.

If it’s so useless why is it so successful elsewhere?

BattleCorp

Deleted User wrote: »

I see. Now how long do you think a lot of fat boys with semi automatics and rifles are going to hold out against the might of the worlds most militarised police force(s), the national guard and even the biggest army if it gets involved? 2 hours or 3?

They'd hold out a lot longer than a bunch of unarmed fat boys.

Look, they wouldn't last 5 minutes going face to face with the US army or the National Guard. But that's not what they would do. It would be a guerilla war.

Look at the might of the British Army and they couldn't get rid of the IRA in the North nor could they stop the IRA attacking them in the UK. How many were in the IRA at its peak? A couple of hundred armed civillians caused havoc. Imagine how hard it would be for a tyrannical government to deal with 100,000,000+ US citizens in revolt.

ThewhiteJesus

BattleCorp wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Jesus Christ was the only white Middle Eastern person. And probably Mary and Joseph too. :cool:

Correct

salmocab

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Thankfully we're able to segue into gun control discourse nicely , once the narrative around the shooter suffered a bouleversement and became problematic.

Read the first two posts in the thread

GreeBo

ThewhiteJesus wrote: »

Correct

Pft, you would say that!

Robert ninja

salmocab wrote: »

If it’s so useless why is it so successful elsewhere?

You think places like Finland, Russia, Israel, Switzerland etc don't have as much gang shootings or mass shootings because they somehow regulate harder? AFAIK it's an even smoother process in some of them to obtain a firearm. The US has a very unique violence problem as a first world country, not a gun problem. They also have the most serial killers - which is absolutely not caused by just being around a guns. That's a remarkably naive understanding of the human psyche.

salmocab

Robert ninja wrote: »

You think places like Finland, Russia, Israel, Switzerland etc don't have as much gang shootings or mass shootings because they somehow regulate harder? AFAIK it's an even smoother process in some of them to obtain a firearm. The US has a very unique violence problem as a first world country, not a gun problem. They also have the most serial killers - which is absolutely not caused by just being around a guns. That's a remarkably naive understanding of the human psyche.

So just in America they have these issues. Someone is naive alright here.

Jim2007

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

The American fascination with guns, and their 2nd Amendment is truly bizzare.

When you read the 2nd amendment, you realize what little respect the Justices of the Supreme court have for the law. You will regularly hear them say that you can't read a section or paragraph out of context, but decide to chop of the fist part of a sentence when it suits you, that's OK.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed

Jim2007

salmocab wrote: »

So just in America they have these issues. Someone is naive alright here.

Expecting us to believe that the problem in the US no greater that it is else where is..... oh ya, naive.

Snickers Man

BattleCorp wrote: »

I don't understand your attitude here. The vast majority of people shot dead by US police are shot for justifiable reasons.

Would you be happier if the score was closer to 50:50? Would that be fairer? Maybe more cops and less criminals killed?

How about fewer people killed overall? Could you not infer that from what I said?

If you're so fond of the US Bill of Rights, let me remind you of the Fifth one. To quote in part "No person shall be.....deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"

But in the case where you have a stressed out, poorly trained, slightly paranoid cop who may be out of his comfort zone confronting somebody who is maybe being less of a model citizen (ie somebody who is drunk, had a fight with their partner, ran a traffic light, has a faulty brake light, or is just angry at the world) the "due process" becomes how quickly the cop jumps to the conclusion that their life may be in danger.

There are plenty of videos on this board to show how quickly that jump can come to be made. And they don't all feature black suspects either.

Are you seriously telling me that 1,000 people every year, give or take, deserved to be shot dead by cops? What sort of zoo is American society, if that were the case? How come so much fewer people are shot dead in Europe by comparison? Is it because all the cops over here are wimps?

I am struck by the contrast between how fervently many Americans resist "Government interference" into such areas as, oh, the wearing of masks during a pandemic,
the need for regulation of business and the collection of taxes,
basic husbandry of the environment for the future survival of mankind but when it comes to gun rights and the inevitable effect that has on the safety of those enforcing the law they say, "Hey the cops can gun us down in our hundreds every year. That's what freedom is all about! Our Founding Fathers said so!"

Why do so many more Americans that Europeans deserve to be summarily executed by cops? What's "freedom" or "Liberty" got to do with that?

Why do you love Big Government so much?

wicklowstevo

GreeBo wrote: »

Well I dont see any evidence that he is not an American citizen or that he is not white, do you have any?

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