Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031061#Comment_122031061

Who's fault is this? Are you complaining about unfairness?

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031627#Comment_122031627

I'm not sure. Loughman has got a good bit better since rowntree became the coach and you'd think he would be a good prop coach?

I sometimes think wycherly is a bit like clarkson where the progress is very uneven and sometimes doesn't seem to be happening but wycherly has expectations beyond his ability. He needs to be firmly third choice and playing low leverage minutes and hopefully he pops in his late mid to late twenties. In that sense, yea leinster is a way better environment at least.

edit: also the problem of long lulls in devlopment in certain positions at ulster and munster are just norms of their dev environments imo. That will happen just by chance. We need to produce elite players but we won't uniformly do so.

Dubinusa

Why don't we? Stockdale was on a CC and look what happened? Seriously, up the wages at the other provinces by 15%. As for lost revenue for Ulster, the union should have reimbursed some or most of the loss.

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031757#Comment_122031757

What loss?

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031174#Comment_122031174

True enough!

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031655#Comment_122031655

Almost every single one of these points you claim have been glossed over have been discussed and mentioned time and time and time again on the thread. I am not sure if you've just missed it or are ignoring it.

Take the first one. Leinster have way more home knockouts. Yes, because they have the best team. They have the best team because they have the most expensive team. They have the most expensive team because they get the most from the IRFU.

Again, this is an example of how the system is self perpetuating. Leinster make the most money cause they get the most money which helps them make more money which helps them get more money and so on and so on and so on and so on.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031720#Comment_122031720

"Toxic"?

I don't agree with Awec, but at this stage your posts are just coming across as hysterical and objectionable, FFF. I asked you earlier to clarify some of the language you were throwing around about other provinces, you didn't respond.

Mate, just chill. Go and rewatch the weekend's game of your rugby team utterly taking apart a lauded bogey team.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031570#Comment_122031570

The issue has always been there.

Players dont want to leave their home province, especially when the province is successful.

Look at Donnacha Ryan's career and how long he sat in 'Bucket B' before getting his chance - what sort of career he could have had if he'd moved earlier.

The problem hasn't changed, those who were perfectly fine with the status quo back then have unsurprisingly found their voice now.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031720#Comment_122031720

”IRFU won’t do anything to threaten Leinster dominance” is the most reductive argument there is so I guess there’s a pair of us in it.

Again, nobody has said this. I said the IRFU have no real motivation to change anything since they can point to the fact that Ireland are doing well and one of their clubs is dining at the top table. Again, this is totally different to what you insinuate.

It is probably worth considering why you are having to be so disingenuous when making your points.

Look at what the IRFU KPIs were for provincial teams:

1. 2 or more URC titles
2. 2 or more Euro Cups
3. Consistently reaching the knockouts

Ignoring the fact they failed to meet the 2nd point, these KPIs do nothing to push the IRFU to improve their other clubs. Reaching the euro knockouts is a particularly low bar these days. Ulster, Munster and Connacht could literally finish 14, 15 and 16th in the league and Nucifora could still mark these KPIs as green.

Number 137

While Leinster will soon have 10/13 central contracts, that was not always the case. Yes, that benefits them financially today. But there was a time when the distribution was far more even and therefore they had to spend more money on their squad. The extra money that they now have to spend is being given as a reason that they have been able to spend more on their academy, pathway structures, etc. But I think that happened first. They invested in the pathways and academy and produced more high quality players leading to more central contracts.

So they have more Central Contracts now because of the investment in that. Not the other way around. 18/23 of Leinster's squad that beat La Rochelle were academy products.

The argument also exists that if Leinster were based in the Premiership for example, that they'd be screwed by the salary cap and unable to maintain their squad as it is. Yet, is there not a system in place that allows you to increase your salary cap if you produce more England international players? If that was the case in Ireland, Leinster would still have an advantage.

Perhaps I am mistaken on the last point, but it's worth pointing out.

Dubinusa

So basically, screw Leinster and get all 4 provinces into the investec qf's, just to lose.

I understand your frustration. But laying it all on the IRFU and Leinster is really dumb. Imo. Ulster have had more coaching changes than Leinster over the years! Who can forget the Kiss/Gibbs shambles. Ulster go out and sign a marquee player, Piatau, who's not needed. They also signed Vermuellen, who to me, was a disappointment. Ulster have a history of fcuk ups. One after the other, compounding the culture.

It's not like Ulster didn't beat Leinster this year already. We're talking the same Ulster that we're nilled by Sale! The Ulster house is not in order. The academy is finally producing good forwards. Finally! The last good forward to come through Ulster's academy is Timoney! It appears that some talented lads have been poached from Leinster this year. Good. Hopefully the days of Lorcan Dow, Dunleavy, Allison etc are over.

Rant complete! I think

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031765#Comment_122031765

They have been discussed but you chose to exclude them in your 'facts' regarding Leinster finances - you have a narrative that you want to push and are refusing to accept the wider context.

The system is only self perpetuation currently because Leinster are very well managed - a few things go wrong and that won't be the case.

I've already shown you that your exact words in that example were the case with Munster in 00's and it didnt self perpetuate because they squandered it with poor decisions.

You keep running to money being a quick fix, the same mistake the other provinces have made - trying to throw money at the problem rather than the management.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031795#Comment_122031795

Oh god, sorry if you are looking at munster back then and saying leinster are just as deep as they were, i'm sorry its delusion.

Yes, guys have always been reluctant to move. But now they are reluctant to move WAY down depth charts. I'm not interested in having a bad faith conversation about this.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031833#Comment_122031833

I agree with this honestly. The tweaks to 'fix' this are tiny and would produce results pretty quickly.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031673#Comment_122031673

That would make perfect sense but isnt what is being suggested.

What the bitters are calling for is to pull back funding from the performing business unit, hurting its success and potentially the viability of the whole company, so they can divert resources to the underperforming business units, ignoring all the clear evidence of the incompetence of their leadership teams and believing simply more money will fix things.

An utterly idiotic business decision.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031760#Comment_122031760

The investec match v La Rochelle that was moved to Dublin!

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031809#Comment_122031809

I'll say it again, all provinces have made a final under Nucifora & 3 have won trophies.

Is there another rugby nation in the world that can show that level of balanced success across their teams?

You feel like it isn't balanced only because you're refusing to accept reality.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031809#Comment_122031809

I obviously have misunderstood the word disingenuous because every time you’re challenged on something you’ve said, you simply deny having said it, but I’m the “disingenuous “ one? Every day is a school day, I guess.

It comes down to this. The issues at Ulster are so deep rooted and long standing that diverting money towards them at this point is absolute madness. If you tell me you don’t know what I’m talking about, I’m afraid I’ll have to call you disingenuous, if indeed I’m using that word correctly.

Munster seem to have turned the corner in terms of player development so fingers crossed it continues.

BTW your claim that Nucifora would meet his basic Kpis and then not give a shyte about anything after that is pure nonsense. It’s absolutely crazy and grossly unfair to the guy.

I’m just sorry that people can’t enjoy the best Ireland team possibly ever. Seems an incredibly self destructive way to look at things.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031862#Comment_122031862

Ryan was way down the depth chart for a good chunk of his career.

I pulled out stats a few months ago that showed Deegan had more game time at a similar age than Ryan did.

Dubinusa

As an aside, I am not ecstatic over the Barrett signing. Nor the Snyman. I'd prefer going with what we have. Probably not a popular opinion.

Dubinusa

Leinster have won nothing recently. Despite the advantages. I doubt that they will beat Toulouse, if both make the final. This is due to Ryan and Ringrose being out. Plus Ntamack is back along with the world's best player.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031917#Comment_122031917

Do you think the other three provinces are improving or declining? Leaving aside barbs about mismanagement (and which I certainly wouldn't disagree with), if three of the provinces are going backwards, do you think the IRFU should act? Preemptively, even?

If three of four provinces are moving further away from success, do you think the union should just castigate them for incompetence (again, not disagreeing that it was). Or do you think it should actually do something? And if so, if the imperative thing is not to inconvenience Leinster, and the budgets are a zero-sum game, what should it do?

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031953#Comment_122031953

Can Ulster fans PayPal you some money to buy some quick turnaround NIQs?

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031174#Comment_122031174

4 is incredibly marginal.

The greater time is lost for central contracted players due to being in camps and recovery - which haven't changed.

The primary goal of central contracts is to keep the top Irish players in Ireland so any changes in URC games doesn't register against that.

Feel the main goal of central contracts has been completely lost in the discussion by those who want huge change.

Real baby out with the bathwater vibes. Would happily hurt Irish rugby if it dragged Leinster off their perch.

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031960#Comment_122031960

15 months ago Ulster were flying high on top of the table, what has gone wrong for them and why is it leinsters fault? Why have most of their promising players regressed?

Rugbyf565

I really think Leinster should be poaching Scott Wilson next season, he’s exactly what we need—a good, young tighthead prospect. I think Leinster would be a great environment for his development, he would definitely prosper here, and to add to it he would have Furlong as his mentor.

theVersatile

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029844#Comment_122029844

@Foxtrol @Bogwoppit

The two of you have repeatedly mentioned how Munster squandered their success by not spending money on grassroots/development/schools etc compared to Leinster who supposedly have.

Can you please point out what investment has actually gone into that from Leinster Rugby compared to the schools own investment or outside monies. I sort of indicated towards this in the quoted message above. What did Leinster ACTUALLY supposedly invest in?

And where did Munster exactly supposedly not invest?

Dubinusa

When O'Connor was shown the door and Leo got the job, Leinster were struggling. Within a year, he got minutes into Molony, Ringrose and Byrne. That started the ball rolling.

Fantastic academy structures, talent scouting and the playing of academy players has really helped! McErlean at 20 years old has more appearances that Postlethwaite has for Ulster at the same age. Shane Jennings at 23 yrs is finally getting a look in Connacht. Andrew Osborne has played for Leinster. O'Tighearnaigh as a sub academy player, also played for Leinster. Why is that? Has Rory Telfer seen a minute at Ulster? The expectation at Leinster must be very much higher than it is elsewhere.

When Leinster were plucking lads from 'Tarf, McGrath and Dundon from the AIL, the advantages were not so problematic.

The work gone into Leinster has been amazing. Fair play to them.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031926#Comment_122031926

Well first of all, i'd put some level of priority on keeping deegan as i don't love the depth coming up beyond culhane and i wonder where he is at as well.

Anyway; which year specifically are you talkijg about for ryan? Let's compare squads.

Dubinusa

I'm also not a fan of Bleyandaal arriving. Would prefer Carolan or Payne.