EU Digital/paper! Certs, the Megathread - threadbans in OP

bfa1509

hmmm wrote: »

No more foreign trips for anti-vaxers, I could live with that in these extraordinary times.

This post didn't age too well. I think this Astra Zeneca issue will highlight that it's not a binary system of pro-vax and anti-vaxers

astrofool

trixi001 wrote: »

I live in the North, approved under emergency use here, and in the EU, the EMA have approved it under CMA which is subject to far less scrutiny than normal EMA approvals as per their own information.

In the south we went by the EMA and not emergency approval, the EMA standard was and is higher than that used by the MHRA, and they deemed the vaccines they approved safe. All the data that has come in since then from 100's of millions of vaccines given confirms that safety.

trixi001 wrote: »

And AZ guidelines updated re: blodclots etc, many more issues may still come to light too, its not an unreasonable position to not want to take a vaccine which is still new to the market and still has unknown side effects especially if COVID doesn't pose much risk to you (or others around you - most people have enough common sense to know not to get too close to vulnerable people anyway if they are sick..)

The guidelines around the use of AZ will be updated for this, the chances of it happening are small.

trixi001 wrote: »

Most countries are are already opening up without a 2 tier system, some have chosen a 2 tier system, but i doubt most will..and i am sure it will be legally challenged in countries that do go down a 2 tier system

Travel will likely remain a 2 tier system for a long time, domestic use of covid vaccine certs will be short lived, if it all.

trixi001 wrote: »

What do you not understand, making it so that someone can't go out for a meal, or go the cinema etc, or even go to work..means not taking the vaccine isn't really a viable choice for most people - it is essentially making it mandatory...
People shouldn't have to live with such extreme draconian consequences of not taking a vaccine.
Such extreme consequences mean it is not a choice..

It is a choice, all choices have consequences, sorry that you don't like some of the consequences, but meh.

trixi001 wrote: »

Ireland has the most stringent and longest lockdown in Europe, so no, most other countries are not just as locked down as Ireland, and the HSE is also extremely inefficient and costs more per person, than far better health systems around the world..

Why is it - there is alternatives to lockdowns, eg:testing...
Lockdowns should be a last resort due to collateral damage, not the default position..
Also we were open a lot more last summer without the vaccines..no reason we can't open up the same now and soon...
Its seems a crazy position that this summer might be even more restrictive than last year, despite the fact we now know much more about COVID, how to treat it, how to prevent it, etc, and that over 1m vaccines have now been used...

We've also kept our hospitals operating and rate of death low, agree that the HSE needs reform, it's a very costly operation where throwing money at the problem hasn't caused any improvement and needs to be changed from the ground up which is unlikely to happen (opposition parties want to throw more money into the black hole).

trixi001 wrote: »

Cocooning is not, and never has been, mandatory, so if someone high risk who can't take the vaccine, want to go out for a meal, they should be able to too.

I really sincerely hope that no domestic passport or certification is used in Ireland or the UK, but if there really has to be one, people who cannot have the vaccine, or those who have a condition making it more riskier than the average person, must be given the passport as well...

I have no issue with the vaccines and am happy people are choosing to do what is right for them, but the important word in all this has to be choice, Ireland (North or South) has never restricted access to normal functions of society on the basis of someones medical history..we have a long history of vaccines, and most people here are not anti-vax, we don't restrict peoples access to a bar if they haven't gotten a Tetanus jab, we don't stop children going to school if they haven't got the MMR - it shouldn't even be up for discussion that we are going to stop people doing certain activities in their own country on the basis of what vaccinations they have or haven't got..

I actually cannot believe there are people supporting a 2 tier society

UK is already planning for a 2 tier system and trial events with COVID certificates, if they are successful, other countries will follow suit.

And again, everyone is free to choose, but have to be aware that choices have consequences. No one has an absolute right to go to a restaurant or an event, we all can't do that right now. Those who are vaccinated will return to normal faster, those who choose not to get vaccinated will return to normal slower.

astrofool

astrofool wrote: »

The guidelines around the use of AZ will be updated for this, the chances of it happening are small.

The issue is that had you expressed ANY safety concern about ANY of these vaccines a few weeks ago, none of which have a long-term safety profile to speak of, you’d have been shouted down as an idiot anti-vaxxer and people directing you to “science” as though they were speaking about some all-powerful deity rather than a process that is literally dependent on flaw-finding to advance.

And then when it turns out the vaccine has a small chance of killing people with blood clots, it’s “oh, well the guidelines will change”.

Well, sure they will. But that doesn’t change the fact that the people who expressed concerns were completely and demonstrably correct to have done so, and the people who declared with certainty that the vaccines were safe were wrong.

Mr. Karate

astrofool wrote: »

The remaining ardent anti-vaxxers are idiots, and I can confidently say that the rest of society, whether vaccinated or not, are more intelligent than they are (but I would not say they are "better" people, because we are all human).

If people don't get vaccinated its because the Govt and Health services [because this is going on in other Countries besides Ireland] are constantly talking about needing lockdowns, masks and social distancing for years to come if not permanently. What's the point of getting it then?

The whole praying for the Caste system to return under the guise of Health Care shows what a religion this has turned into for some people. The irony is that the Covidologists that follow the dogma of Holohan are the ones who mock Christians and other religious people for following the dogma of their Bibles, Qurans, Torahs,etc.

Mr. Karate

Mr. Karate wrote: »

If people don't get vaccinated its because the Govt and Health services [because this is going on in other Countries besides Ireland] are constantly talking about needing lockdowns, masks and social distancing for years to come if not permanently. What's the point of getting it then?

The whole praying for the Caste system to return under the guise of Health Care shows what a religion this has turned into for some people. The irony is that the Covidologists that follow the dogma of Holohan are the ones who mock Christians and other religious people for following the dogma of their Bibles, Qurans, Torahs,etc.

Exactly. Does this 'semblance of normality' or 'degree of normality' we keep hearing about include the mask and social distancing?

And do people seriously think all these countries are going to spend billions on the passports to introduce them temporarily for a few months?

astrofool

Deleted User wrote: »

The issue is that had you expressed ANY safety concern about ANY of these vaccines a few weeks ago, none of which have a long-term safety profile to speak of, you’d have been shouted down as an idiot anti-vaxxer and people directing you to “science” as though they were speaking about some all-powerful deity rather than a process that is literally dependent on flaw-finding to advance.

And then when it turns out the vaccine has a small chance of killing people with blood clots, it’s “oh, well the guidelines will change”.

Well, sure they will. But that doesn’t change the fact that the people who expressed concerns were completely and demonstrably correct to have done so, and the people who declared with certainty that the vaccines were safe were wrong.

I did, please check my posting history, I supported the pause while data was gathered, now that the data is gathered, the guidelines can be updated. I also supported not giving it to over 70's, again, while the data was gathered.

What I didn't say was over exaggerate the chances as everybody seems to be doing at the moment (people are really really bad at calculating risk in general).

Mr. Karate wrote: »

If people don't get vaccinated its because the Govt and Health services [because this is going on in other Countries besides Ireland] are constantly talking about needing lockdowns, masks and social distancing for years to come if not permanently. What's the point of getting it then?

The whole praying for the Caste system to return under the guise of Health Care shows what a religion this has turned into for some people. The irony is that the Covidologists that follow the dogma of Holohan are the ones who mock Christians and other religious people for following the dogma of their Bibles, Qurans, Torahs,etc.

There is no caste system (and what do you mean by returning, it never existed in Ireland) that will be in place, if we get to herd immunity, and if there is no immune escape by variants, then mask wearing and distancing will cease.

Deleted User wrote: »

And do people seriously think all these countries are going to spend billions on the passports to introduce them temporarily for a few months?

Billions will not be spent on COVID certificates.

astrofool

astrofool wrote: »

I did, please check my posting history, I supported the pause while data was gathered, now that the data is gathered, the guidelines can be updated. I also supported not giving it to over 70's, again, while the data was gathered.

What I didn't say was over exaggerate the chances as everybody seems to be doing at the moment (people are really really bad at calculating risk in general).

Supporting a pause after the fact is not the same as being concerned about absent long-term safety data before the fact. And being concerned about long-term safety in the absence of long-term safety data is not the same thing as exaggerating the chances of a single now-known short-term side-effect.

In any case, I do not support vaccine passports, because they set a precedent.

“We have to have vaccine passports since they will stop the spread and therefore stop the healthcare system from becoming overwhelmed” is really not a very big logical leap from “we have to monitor people’s weight and exclude people who are overweight from certain activities to encourage them to be healthier so that heart disease admissions free up our health service and it won’t get overwhelmed every winter” for example.

In addition, I don’t think that my health status is anything to do with anyone but me and my doctor. Nobody ever cared if I had a flu shot (I did), which is generally a bigger health threat in the demographics I am mostly in contact with.

Aside from that, it’s the principle of the thing. It’s a strong philosophical conviction that I’m aware many people don’t share in times of fear, but the idea that freedoms can be stripped at whim by government and then returned incrementally in whatever timeframe they fancy is absolutely terrifying. Not necessarily because the current government will abuse it (though I think they’re making a hash of it) but because once the precedent is set, it’s done, and whoever you end up with in power, whatever their aims, they have access to that same precedent and need only conjure a “crisis” to make use of it.

astrofool

There is no logical step between these two, no slippery slope, no imaginary line to be drawn, the first is a measure during a pandemic, the second is a 1984 fevre dream:

“We have to have vaccine passports since they will stop the spread and therefore stop the healthcare system from becoming overwhelmed” is really not a very big logical leap from “we have to monitor people’s weight and exclude people who are overweight from certain activities to encourage them to be healthier so that heart disease admissions free up our health service and it won’t get overwhelmed every winter” for example.

astrofool

astrofool wrote: »

There is no logical step between these two, no slippery slope, no imaginary line to be drawn, the first is a measure during a pandemic, the second is a 1984 fevre dream:

“We have to have vaccine passports since they will stop the spread and therefore stop the healthcare system from becoming overwhelmed” is really not a very big logical leap from “we have to monitor people’s weight and exclude people who are overweight from certain activities to encourage them to be healthier so that heart disease admissions free up our health service and it won’t get overwhelmed every winter” for example.

I can respect that you feel that way. I believe you are dead wrong, but I can understand where you’re coming from.

ExMachina1000

Joe Biden is against vaccine passports as people's right to privacy should not be infringed.

The "right to privacy " is never mentioned here. Just do as you are told

astrofool

Deleted User wrote: »

I can respect that you feel that way. I believe you are dead wrong, but I can understand where you’re coming from.

I'm sure the forum will be around when the COVID certs both come and go.

titan18

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40260956.html

Saying shops and hairdressers to reopen for fully vaccinated people (so anyone with AZ can feck off basically for another few months).

You'd wonder does anyone in government know places have fixed costs if they reopen so why would any place reopen for a tiny customer base compared to usual.

is_that_so

titan18 wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40260956.html

Saying shops and hairdressers to reopen for fully vaccinated people (so anyone with AZ can feck off basically for another few months).

You'd wonder does anyone in government know places have fixed costs if they reopen so why would any place reopen for a tiny customer base compared to usual.

Sounds like complete kite flying TBH, especially as we currently have so few fully vaccinated people and most are well over 70. Such businesses have been flagged for reopening in May anyway. What business is going to turn away eager clients? If applied anywhere it'll be for large events.

ExMachina1000

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Joe Biden is against vaccine passports as people's right to privacy should not be infringed.

The "right to privacy " is never mentioned here. Just do as you are told

But there's opposition in the US. That's the difference. Opposition means pushback. There is a political party for half the US population and a political party for the other half. There's even a third political party, i.e. the Libertarian Party. In Ireland the political parties are identical. And the newspapers and RTÉ are identical. I often wonder why they're all needed when they just say the same thing.

is_that_so

Deleted User wrote: »

But there's opposition in the US. That's the difference. Opposition means pushback. There is a political party for half the US population and a political party for the other half. There's even a third political party, i.e. the Libertarian Party. In Ireland the political parties are identical. And the newspapers and RTÉ are identical. I often wonder why they're all needed when they just say the same thing.

Without dragging this into CT territory, this concept is an EU level measure to get travel and tourism up and running this summer. Their use at national level has not been defined and for now seems to be little more than a clumsy nudge for people to get vaccinated to avoid FOMO.

well it's not going down well in France nor is the Vaccine. uptake is the worse in Europe. Why?

is_that_so

is_that_so wrote: »

Without dragging this into CT territory, this concept is an EU level measure to get travel and tourism up and running this summer. Their use at national level has not been defined and for now seems to be little more than a clumsy nudge for people to get vaccinated to avoid FOMO.

There's nothing CT about it. It's a fact that there's no opposition in Ireland, be it in politics or in the media. That's why Ireland has been shut for the best part of a year, while other countries haven't. In other countries there is pressure from the media and in politics.

And it's use domestically will begin in May when shops and hairdressers will open to those who are vaccinated only: https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40260956.html

is_that_so

rusty cole wrote: »

well it's not going down well in France nor is the Vaccine. uptake is the worse in Europe. Why?

A distrust of big pharma because of this.

https://www.france24.com/en/france/20210329-mediator-trial-french-pharma-giant-faces-verdict-on-weight-loss-drug-deaths

is_that_so

Deleted User wrote: »

There's nothing CT about it. It's a fact that there's no opposition in Ireland, be it in politics or in the media. That's why Ireland has been shut for the best part of a year, while other countries haven't. In other countries there is pressure from the media and in politics.

And it's use domestically will begin in May when shops and hairdressers will open to those who are vaccinated only: https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40260956.html

Taking a speculative article as fact is really not a good way to start the day. Most people get why we are shut, even if some dispute the approach, severity and duration of it. I'm not sure why you imagine the opposition were ever any good anyway!

lan

We’re in a pandemic. The only realistic way we get out and back to normality is through herd immunity. That can only happen if enough people either catch COVID, or get vaccinated.

I’d hope we can all agree that natural herd immunity would be a disaster. About 1% of people who catch COVID die from it, many more need hospitalisation and ICU care. Even then, approximately 10% of COVID survivors suffer from some longer term health effects (extreme fatigue, aches, brain fog, shortness of breathe) that we don’t fully understand or have effective treatments for yet.

That’s a horrible enough prospect to willing inflict on a population, but it’s also assuming we can provide adequate healthcare care for people when they catch it. The only reason our health system hasn’t been overwhelmed is due to lockdowns preventing the spread of the disease. The death rate would be far higher with uncontrolled transmission due to a lack of treatment capacity. Look at our numbers at Christmas, our cases spiked enormously as people visited their families, a x10 increase in the two weeks after, and despite going into an immediate level 5 lockdown for 4 months, we still have managed to fully get over that ‘wave’. This virus is incredibly contagious when let spread without restrictions.

So that only leaves lockdowns until herd immunity through vaccination.

The vaccine rollout is slow. Much slower than we’d all like. Assuming a high uptake, we will eventually reach herd immunity, but it’s slow going.

The question is, when you have 10%, or 20%, or 30% or 50% of the country vaccinated, does it make sense to keep them locked up when they could be safely allowed to go about their business? Probably not.

Would that be unfair on the rest of the unvaccinated people? Yes. But is it unfair on the vaccinated people to keep them locked up for no reason other than out of solidarity? Also yes.

There are no perfect answers here, clearly. The best we can hope for is the vaccine supply increases and we get to herd immunity sooner, negating the need for vaccine passports. In the absence of that, as unfair as it seems, I think allowing vaccinated people to safely congregate and work etc makes more sense, but it’s definitely an imperfect system.

All of this would only be necessary until herd immunity is achieved. How we measure that exactly is an open debate, but it’ll probably be when somewhere between 75 - 95% of people are immune.

They can (and should) start incrementally lifting restrictions for everyone, vaccinated or not, before then, but only as long as case numbers don’t start increasing out of control.

Irish Aris

titan18 wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40260956.html

Saying shops and hairdressers to reopen for fully vaccinated people (so anyone with AZ can feck off basically for another few months).

You'd wonder does anyone in government know places have fixed costs if they reopen so why would any place reopen for a tiny customer base compared to usual.

I was thinking the same this morning.
Would a shop make a profit with very limited clientele allowed? It doesn't make much sense.
If the government actually goes for this, does this mean that they can stop financially supporting businesses and employees (I mean the grants, PUP etc.)?

SnuggyBear

Irish Aris wrote: »

I was thinking the same this morning.
Would a shop make a profit with very limited clientele allowed? It doesn't make much sense.
If the government actually goes for this, does this mean that they can stop financially supporting businesses and employees (I mean the grants, PUP etc.)?

Ye there's too much to think about. I don't think the Irish government are good enough to pull this off. It will be a half arsed effort if anything where your allowed go to the beach if your vaccinated.

Russman

lan wrote: »

We’re in a pandemic. The only realistic way we get out and back to normality is through herd immunity. That can only happen if enough people either catch COVID, or get vaccinated.

I’d hope we can all agree that natural herd immunity would be a disaster. About 1% of people who catch COVID die from it, many more need hospitalisation and ICU care. Even then, approximately 10% of COVID survivors suffer from some longer term health effects (extreme fatigue, aches, brain fog, shortness of breathe) that we don’t fully understand or have effective treatments for yet.

That’s a horrible enough prospect to willing inflict on a population, but it’s also assuming we can provide adequate healthcare care for people when they catch it. The only reason our health system hasn’t been overwhelmed is due to lockdowns preventing the spread of the disease. The death rate would be far higher with uncontrolled transmission due to a lack of treatment capacity. Look at our numbers at Christmas, our cases spiked enormously as people visited their families, a x10 increase in the two weeks after, and despite going into an immediate level 5 lockdown for 4 months, we still have managed to fully get over that ‘wave’. This virus is incredibly contagious when let spread without restrictions.

So that only leaves lockdowns until herd immunity through vaccination.

The vaccine rollout is slow. Much slower than we’d all like. Assuming a high uptake, we will eventually reach herd immunity, but it’s slow going.

The question is, when you have 10%, or 20%, or 30% or 50% of the country vaccinated, does it make sense to keep them locked up when they could be safely allowed to go about their business? Probably not.

Would that be unfair on the rest of the unvaccinated people? Yes. But is it unfair on the vaccinated people to keep them locked up for no reason other than out of solidarity? Also yes.

There are no perfect answers here, clearly. The best we can hope for is the vaccine supply increases and we get to herd immunity sooner, negating the need for vaccine passports. In the absence of that, as unfair as it seems, I think allowing vaccinated people to safely congregate and work etc makes more sense, but it’s definitely an imperfect system.

All of this would only be necessary until herd immunity is achieved. How we measure that exactly is an open debate, but it’ll probably be when somewhere between 75 - 95% of people are immune.

They can (and should) start incrementally lifting restrictions for everyone, vaccinated or not, before then, but only as long as case numbers don’t start increasing out of control.

Excellent post.

As you say, there are no perfect answers. This is true probably of every decision they've made since the whole thing started - no good options, just different mixes of bad ones.

bucketybuck

To me its two very simple questions.

A) It's April 2021, how long is it going to take until a vaccine is available for everybody in the country who wants one?

And , how long will it take to devise and implement a vaccine passport system?

If B takes longer than A then it is a redundant measure, by the time it works it will already be unnecessary.

Simple as that, unless there are ulterior reasons for wanting the covid passports...

Russman

bucketybuck wrote: »

To me its two very simple questions.

A) It's April 2021, how long is it going to take until a vaccine is available for everybody in the country who wants one?

And , how long will it take to devise and implement a vaccine passport system?

If B takes longer than A then it is a redundant measure, by the time it works it will already be unnecessary.

Simple as that, unless there are ulterior reasons for wanting the covid passports...

I think as someone mentioned upthread, its really about travel and getting EU tourism going again. Yeah, you'll probably need it to go into stadiums and gigs if they happen this year, but realistically we're not going to go the Israel route of passports to get into pubs etc.

francogarbanzo

Russman wrote: »

I think as someone mentioned upthread, its really about travel and getting EU tourism going again. Yeah, you'll probably need it to go into stadiums and gigs if they happen this year, but realistically we're not going to go the Israel route of passports to get into pubs etc.

What makes you say that?

Russman

Russman wrote: »

I think as someone mentioned upthread, its really about travel and getting EU tourism going again. Yeah, you'll probably need it to go into stadiums and gigs if they happen this year, but realistically we're not going to go the Israel route of passports to get into pubs etc.

Then why are shops and hairdressers set to open to vaccinated people only next month: https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40260956.html

This is going to used everywhere, in my opinion. As demonstrated in the promo video for Health Passport Ireland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFerXipG-t0

Watch from 1:19 on. The narrator explains how and where the passport could be used.

drunkmonkey

Deleted User wrote: »

And it's use domestically will begin in May when shops and hairdressers will open to those who are vaccinated only: https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40260956.html

I read that and if it happens they can shove the vaccine up their bum.
One thing taking it voluntary but it you need to be forced via arpathied screw the lot of them we owe it to future generations not to allow this to become normal.

Just off the phone to my mate in scotland, walked into a Barber and got a hair cut yesterday without any bullcrap or vaccination papers.

Fighting Tao

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Then why are shops and hairdressers set to open to vaccinated people only next month: https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40260956.html

To protect people.

Multipass

Irish Aris wrote: »

I was thinking the same this morning.
Would a shop make a profit with very limited clientele allowed? It doesn't make much sense.
If the government actually goes for this, does this mean that they can stop financially supporting businesses and employees (I mean the grants, PUP etc.)?

Shop staff won’t be interested in policing this either, there’d be a constant stream of dirty unvaccinated trying to blag their way in - I’d be one of them. Maybe standing outside trying to catch someone vaccinated to go in and buy a pair of shoes for me :pac: