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EU Digital/paper! Certs, the Megathread - threadbans in OP
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There is already certificates used for lots of things, driving license, qualifications to do a job, welfare card, actual passports, age cards. The vaccine cert will be no less or more "dangerous" than any of those things, nipping a health measure in the bud during a pandemic because it might cause 1984 is pretty dumb.
Considering all the things most people take for granted like using the google, using smart phones or bank cards for online shopping, or actual passports to travel between countries, it’s pretty incredible that they would draw the line at covid vaccines.
“Bill Gates is going to use covid vaccines to track your behaviour. I learned that while using Facebook on my smartphone”.0 -
There is already certificates used for lots of things, driving license, qualifications to do a job, welfare card, actual passports, age cards. The vaccine cert will be no less or more "dangerous" than any of those things, nipping a health measure in the bud during a pandemic because it might cause 1984 is pretty dumb.
none of them remove you from society.
all the ones you listed are to obtain specific services - nearly all are state services and most are merely proof of who you are.
You mention a qualification but that is something earned - a standard - not a commentary of who you inherently are. Current proposals on vaccine passports are markedly different unless you are claiming it marks you as a different standard of human being. Are you?:eek:
What is proposed is a reduction in quality of life for those who refuse - taking away aspects of their life previously enjoyed. The people who take the vaccine aren't getting anything new or better just what they had (and in fairness should never have been removed)
Should you allow government to grant you rights that should be intrinsically yours anyway? I guess that's a wider debate beyond this thread but it is relevant.0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »Considering all the things most people take for granted like using the google, using smart phones or bank cards for online shopping, or actual passports to travel between countries, it’s pretty incredible that they would draw the line at covid vaccines.
“Bill Gates is going to use covid vaccines to track your behaviour. I learned that while using Facebook on my smartphone”.
Just another rehash of the ‘5G, Bill Gates, George Soros, John Waters conspiracy’ argument. There are genuine reasons to oppose such things that are not conspiracy theories.
I mean where are we going to draw the line? Big brother style cameras will be in our homes to make sure we aren’t mixing households by the time most people would kick up a fuss it seems.0 -
A vaccine passport for an experimental vaccine is completely wrong - all the vaccines have currently only been regulated for emergency use and do not have full approval
Wrong, EMA approval is CMA with the manufacturer liable for any issues found with the vaccine- no way should anyone be forced to participate is what is essentially a giant vaccine travel...
Even if they were fully approved - why do we need a vaccine passport for normal domestic life..it is wrong to suggest that someone who chooses to get a vaccine can go to a restaurant and someone who chooses not to get a vaccine can't..it is a very dangerous precedent to set...will it be the same for flu injections every year..
The same will not be required for flu injections every year, the flu, while an issue for the health system, is nowhere near as dangerous as the SARS-COV2 virus.Most people in Ireland now seem to be advocates for abortion as they state - its her body her choice, but why would this not apply for vaccines - my body, my choice?
Not the same, but you can refuse a vaccine, just don't expect to be able to do everything vaccinated people can do, mostly participate in international travel. Getting or not getting an abortion does not entitle you to do or not do anything, why you would even bring this scenario up is weird.I have a roughly 1 in 100,000 of dying from Covid (Good calculator here - https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/news/coronavirus-and-your-health/how-to-find-out-your-risk-when-it-comes-to-coronavirus). why should i be essentially forced to take a vaccine which comes with its own risks to prevent an illness which is not particularly dangerous?
Because you're protecting others who are more vulnerable than you, and some for who vaccines will be ineffective, for whatever reason. If enough people follow this, then either we're in lockdown forever, or the hospitals get overwhelmed and many more people die.PS - I am not saying i won't get it, just why should i be forced to get it?
You should get it, you won't be forced, but if you don't get it, don't expect to have the same privileges as people who do get it (again, mostly international travel).Going to down a route of requiring vaccines to access normal functions of society, means limiting access to society to those who can't be vaccinated for whatever reason - pregnancy, allergic reactions, medical conditions etc, unless they consent to sharing this information - We should not consent to the potential to have to reveal any element of private medical business to a bouncer etc or to work colleagues who are having christmas dinner, that unvaccinated can't attend etc..what about people who don't carry a smartphone, or who's phone is lost or broken or the battery dies on they way to an event..
Sure, you don't have to present any information, just don't go to those events. Presuming you won't be presenting your age card as well, or your ticket with your name on it.
If someone needs their phone to get into an event and their battery dies, that's on them for not charging their phone. If their phone is lost or broken, they should probably be more concerned with their phone than the event. They can of course choose to carry a non digital form of the certificate.0 -
paw patrol wrote: »You mention a qualification but that is something earned - a standard - not a commentary of who you inherently are. Current proposals on vaccine passports are markedly different unless you are claiming it marks you as a different standard of human being. Are you?:eek:
Elaborate on what you mean here, be specific.0 -
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Going to down a route of requiring vaccines to access normal functions of society, means limiting access to society to those who can't be vaccinated for whatever reason - pregnancy, allergic reactions, medical conditions etc, unless they consent to sharing this information - We should not consent to the potential to have to reveal any element of private medical business to a bouncer etc or to work colleagues who are having christmas dinner, that unvaccinated can't attend etc..what about people who don't carry a smartphone, or who's phone is lost or broken or the battery dies on they way to an event..
read on a Dutch board people who cant be vaccinated because of the reasons you mentioned will get a free green pass
Don't know if the Irish government is doing the same with those who cant get a vaccine on those reasons
I'm one of then who want it but cant get it on medical grounds so if they wont do anything about that i wouldn't be allowed anywhere from now on0 -
Parachutes wrote: »Just another rehash of the ‘5G, Bill Gates, George Soros, John Waters conspiracy’ argument. There are genuine reasons to oppose such things that are not conspiracy theories.
I mean where are we going to draw the line? Big brother style cameras will be in our homes to make sure we aren’t mixing households by the time most people would kick up a fuss it seems.
How about we draw the line after a certificate that validates a person has been vaccinated against a virus that has caused the entire world to lockdown, that sounds OK doesn't it?
It's like the CT forum in here, slippery slopes and lines not being drawn, but no way to get from COVID vaccine cert to 1984.0 -
How about we draw the line after a certificate that validates a person has been vaccinated against a virus that has caused the entire world to lockdown, that sounds OK doesn't it?
It's like the CT forum in here, slippery slopes and lines not being drawn, but no way to get from COVID vaccine cert to 1984.
I mean if you can’t see any problem with any of this at this stage there’s probably no hope for you.0 -
Parachutes wrote: »I mean if you can’t see any problem with any of this at this stage there’s probably no hope for you.
Why is there no hope? We may have to use a COVID cert for a while, then we'll stop. If you can outline the next steps, then we can see if there is something to be worried about and we'll know what to watch out for.0 -
There is already certificates used for lots of things, driving license, qualifications to do a job, welfare card, actual passports, age cards. The vaccine cert will be no less or more "dangerous" than any of those things, nipping a health measure in the bud during a pandemic because it might cause 1984 is pretty dumb.
I got vaccinated when I went to Thailand, for my own safety. I wasn't asked for it, nor prevented from entering when I arrived. It was for my safety. As another poster said, these Vaccines are 100% still on trial due to the world having to accept them conditionally through lack of anything else. What your seeing now is real world outcomes, maybe those clots happened to people on a certain statin, with a certain blood type, metabolic disorder and so on. The trials were carried out on very healthy individuals id wager who were young, we know this because of the row over the over 65's started by Germany. This is when there simply was not enough of the over 65 Cohort in the Trials.yes the very Cohort we try to protect. There's not a doctor in the land who'll tell you naturally acquired immunity is trumped by a vaccine..yes the former is riskier as in the mumps say but once you've been exposed and through it id say the burden of proof is on the state to tell a person they're carrying Zero antibodies.
Bashing anyone with the george Orwell baton is getting a bit blunt to be honest.0 -
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Why is there no hope? We may have to use a COVID cert for a while, then we'll stop. If you can outline the next steps, then we can see if there is something to be worried about and we'll know what to watch out for.
I mean when do these things ever just ‘stop’ it’s setting a precedent that will never go away. People said the same thing about airport security after 9/11 but here we are 20 years later and you still can’t go through with a bottle of water.
Kind of like how the lockdown precedent was set. We acquiesced once and now governments seem to think they can put us in and out of lockdown willy nilly as much as they please even though the WHO don’t recommend it anymore.0 -
Elaborate on what you mean here, be specific.
Not sure what you mean but I'll try.
There is talk - see Leo / Boris et al utterings in the media and here too although our rantings on boards don't have the same gravitas admittedly,
That those will vaccines (and proof) will be allowed do things that non-proof of vaccine people cannot do. Things that were normal pre covid for everybody.
See leo in todays examiner.
Admittedly they haven't ironed our specifics although Boris has suggested access to pubs/shops etc...but it's all vague.
I think leo mentioned concerts.
But we see a version of it in Israel already - which has a very defined multi tiered society based on who is vaccinated and who is not.
but that type of two tier segregated society marks out people as "better" (insert any similar word) than others. Tjose with the pass can access a society forbidden to others. That's my point.
Sure the details aren't ironed out but it needs to be rejected now.0 -
Parachutes wrote: »I mean when do these things ever just ‘stop’ it’s setting a precedent that will never go away. People said the same thing about airport security after 9/11 but here we are 20 years later and you still can’t go through with a bottle of water.
Kind of like how the lockdown precedent was set. We acquiesced once and now governments seem to think they can put us in and out of lockdown willy nilly as much as they please even though the WHO don’t recommend it anymore.
Nobody in the know was saying that about airport security, a lot of countries already had rules about carrying liquids onto a plane before 9/11.
The goal is to get out of lockdown the government is actively trying to stop them occurring, it sounds like you're saying you're OK with a covid vaccine cert if it stops the lockdowns occurring? (again, their domestic use will likely be small and temporary but international travel will need them until the world is vaccinated sometime in 2022-23).0 -
paw patrol wrote: »Not sure what you mean but I'll try.
There is talk - see Leo / Boris et al utterings in the media and here too although our rantings on boards don't have the same gravitas admittedly,
That those will vaccines (and proof) will be allowed do things that non-proof of vaccine people cannot do. Things that were normal pre covid for everybody.
See leo in todays examiner.
Admittedly they haven't ironed our specifics although Boris has suggested access to pubs/shops etc...but it's all vague.
I think leo mentioned concerts.
But we see a version of it in Israel already - which has a very defined multi tiered society based on who is vaccinated and who is not.
but that type of two tier segregated society marks out people as "better" (insert any similar word) than others. Tjose with the pass can access a society forbidden to others. That's my point.
Sure the details aren't ironed out but it needs to be rejected now.
OK, so your worry is that we'll fall into some sort of 2 tier society.
In which case, don't worry, COVID vaccine certificates will only be needed to get out of the pandemic, there will not be a 2 tier society as a result of COVID vaccine certificates.
I also don't see currently vaccinated elderly and healthcare workers (maybe the teachers in St. Gerards, but they're a different problem) going about lording it up about how they're better than everyone else, when I get vaccinated, I won't be thinking I'm better than my children. Sure, some people have genuine worries about medicine, but 90% of the time, talking to a doctor eases those concerns and they end up getting the medicine.
The remaining ardent anti-vaxxers are idiots, and I can confidently say that the rest of society, whether vaccinated or not, are more intelligent than they are (but I would not say they are "better" people, because we are all human).0 -
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Wrong, EMA approval is CMA with the manufacturer liable for any issues found with the vaccine
Conditional Marketing Authorisation (https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/glossary/conditional-marketing-authorisation)
The approval of a medicine that addresses unmet medical needs of patients on the basis of less comprehensive data than normally required. The available data must indicate that the medicine’s benefits outweigh its risks and the applicant should be in a position to provide the comprehensive clinical data in the future.The same will not be required for flu injections every year, the flu, while an issue for the health system, is nowhere near as dangerous as the SARS-COV2 virus.
I don't consider a one in a 100,000 chance of dying as being dangerous...the vaccine has a 1 in 100,000 or causing a severe allergenic reaction and the EMA describe this as rare...Not the same, but you can refuse a vaccine, just don't expect to be able to do everything vaccinated people can do, mostly participate in international travel.
International travel is one aspect and every country (well most unless part of a bigger group - ie EU) has a right to decide who can and can't enter the country - but limiting a citizens right to and participate in society in their own country based on vaccine status is completely different..
- No, the people of Ireland voted that women should have the right to choose what to do with their own bodies, but now, people are suggesting, that we shouldn't have the right to choose what to do with them - ie - choose not to inject them...Getting or not getting an abortion does not entitle you to do or not do anything, why you would even bring this scenario up is weird.Because you're protecting others who are more vulnerable than you, and some for who vaccines will be ineffective, for whatever reason. If enough people follow this, then either we're in lockdown forever, or the hospitals get overwhelmed and many more people die.
Or we could also invest in the health service, train more people, upskill existing staff etc, it get overwhelmed very year...it should operate with spare capacity, and not have to enter surge capacity ever winter,....the chances of the health service being overwhelmed if the vaccine has been offered to everyone is so minimal anyway..the number of people who choose not to get will probably be quite low..so there is no need for draconian measures such as refusing access to normal parts of a functioning society to those who choose not to get vaccinated.You should get it, you won't be forced, but if you don't get it, don't expect to have the same privileges as people who do get it (again, mostly international travel).
I probably will get it, but still disagree with people not be allowed to participate in society if they don't choose to get it
International travel is one issue, domestic social restrictions based on vaccine status are completely wrong, it is mandating a vaccine, in all but name..Sure, you don't have to present any information, just don't go to those events. Presuming you won't be presenting your age card as well, or your ticket with your name on it.
So someone that can't get the vaccine, can't go to an event... or is it people who can't get it are allowed to go to events, but those that choose not to can't go - how do you prove what category you fall into - by presenting personal information to someone..ie - I can't get the vaccine, I'm pregnant, or I'm allergic to x, or i have a serious health condition..If someone needs their phone to get into an event and their battery dies, that's on them for not charging their phone. If their phone is lost or broken, they should probably be more concerned with their phone than the event. They can of course choose to carry a non digital form of the certificate.
As long a non digital form is accepted...0 -
The only people who eagerly awaits vaccine passports implementation are solicitors. They cant wait to see government attempt to introduce something like this. Then we will see discrimination cases due to medical reasons popping up.
Seriously, if someone do not want to take vaccine I do not blame them. They will acquire natural immunity eventually anyway.0 -
below is typical of the shyte Pharma companies pull every year and yet we all take them at face value...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-49795237
Our Vaccines are 90% effective...when people die after..Oh they caught the virus and died' from it just before they took the injection which can take a few weeks to kick in..
Person A dies from blood clots after they take the injection the week before..oh you guys cannot prove it, it's just bad timing and our vaccine had not kicked in and he got covid, you know the kind that gives you blood clots?? oh you didn't know..well listen up gun slingers cos covid is a panacea of diseases!!!
Person B had your vaccine and is dead..oh that will be the variants..we cannot guarantee against the every increasing populous of the variants...
talk about a licence to print money.0 -
Conditional Marketing Authorisation (https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/glossary/conditional-marketing-authorisation)
You said it was approved under emergency use, that is wrong, it was approved under CMA, and since then has been used safely in hundreds of millions of people, far more than the number that take other medicines.I don't consider a one in a 100,000 chance of dying as being dangerous...the vaccine has a 1 in 100,000 or causing a severe allergenic reaction and the EMA describe this as rare...
No deaths have occurred due to severe reaction, the allergenic reaction was highlighted at approval time and made clear, the two nurses who suffered a reaction were asked if they had allergies and said they didn't, when in fact they suffered from severe allergic reactions already, in both cases, the nurses were treated and recovered, and guidelines updated to make it even more clear.International travel is one aspect and every country (well most unless part of a bigger group - ie EU) has a right to decide who can and can't enter the country - but limiting a citizens right to and participate in society in their own country based on vaccine status is completely different..
The options are keep everything locked down till herd immunity, or open with restrictions on those who aren't vaccinated, most countries will choose the latter.- No, the people of Ireland voted that women should have the right to choose what to do with their own bodies, but now, people are suggesting, that we shouldn't have the right to choose what to do with them - ie - choose not to inject them...
This is of course your choice, but that doesn't mean you don't have to live with the consequences of your choice which is what you seem to want (and again, parallels with abortion do not exist).Or we could also invest in the health service, train more people, upskill existing staff etc, it get overwhelmed very year...it should operate with spare capacity, and not have to enter surge capacity ever winter,....the chances of the health service being overwhelmed if the vaccine has been offered to everyone is so minimal anyway..the number of people who choose not to get will probably be quite low..so there is no need for draconian measures such as refusing access to normal parts of a functioning society to those who choose not to get vaccinated.
Countries with better and worse health systems are just as locked down as Ireland.I probably will get it,
Greatbut still disagree with people not be allowed to participate in society if they don't choose to get it. International travel is one issue, domestic social restrictions based on vaccine status are completely wrong, it is mandating a vaccine, in all but name..
It is lockdowns until herd immunity, or open up with restrictions on those not vaccinated.So someone that can't get the vaccine, can't go to an event... or is it people who can't get it are allowed to go to events, but those that choose not to can't go - how do you prove what category you fall into - by presenting personal information to someone..ie - I can't get the vaccine, I'm pregnant, or I'm allergic to x, or i have a serious health condition..
As long a non digital form is accepted...
Everyone will be offered a vaccine, those who can't get a vaccine for medical reasons (pregnant women can now get COVID vaccines) will be relying on everyone else to get vaccinated, and if they are at high risk from COVID-19, will be cocooning until herd immunity is reached and community transmission is eliminated.
I'm pretty sure that a non digital cert will be available (if they even come in), mostly for the elderly, but modern life will use of phones to make it easier for people.0 -
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This may have been posted already. This is the US attitude to this approach - No.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-566571940 -
is_that_so wrote: »This may have been posted already. This is the US attitude to this approach - No.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56657194
Yet states can set thier own rules so you may not need one in Florida but may need one in New York.0 -
International travel is one aspect and every country (well most unless part of a bigger group - ie EU) has a right to decide who can and can't enter the country - but limiting a citizens right to and participate in society in their own country based on vaccine status is completely different..
But we already limit peoples rights. You can't buy alcohol at certain times. Can't smoke inside pubs/offices etc. Speed limits on roads. Can't build a home the way you want without planning permission. Based on the public interest.0 -
Not sure that would happen though. How would they force someone from out of state to get one if they don't exist?Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »Yet states can set thier own rules so you may not need one in Florida but may need one in New York.0 -
It very much depends on how rights are limited and the possible concept here is a level of segregation not the public at large. If it comes down to basic rights it's going to be wall to wall court cases. Even a gym could find itself in trouble for changing T&Cs without customer buy-in.jimmycrackcorm wrote: »But we already limit peoples rights. You can't buy alcohol at certain times. Can't smoke inside pubs/offices etc. Speed limits on roads. Can't build a home the way you want without planning permission. Based on the public interest.0 -
is_that_so wrote: »Not sure that would happen though. How would they force someone from out of state to get one if they don't exist?
I'm no expert, but doesn't federal law trump local state laws?0 -
is_that_so wrote: »This may have been posted already. This is the US attitude to this approach - No.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56657194
I guess they are just being big babies about it. Isn't that how it works?0 -
You said it was approved under emergency use, that is wrong, it was approved under CMA, and since then has been used safely in hundreds of millions of people, far more than the number that take other medicines.
I live in the North, approved under emergency use here, and in the EU, the EMA have approved it under CMA which is subject to far less scrutiny than normal EMA approvals as per their own information.No deaths have occurred due to severe reaction, the allergenic reaction was highlighted at approval time and made clear, the two nurses who suffered a reaction were asked if they had allergies and said they didn't, when in fact they suffered from severe allergic reactions already, in both cases, the nurses were treated and recovered, and guidelines updated to make it even more clear.
And AZ guidelines updated re: blodclots etc, many more issues may still come to light too, its not an unreasonable position to not want to take a vaccine which is still new to the market and still has unknown side effects especially if COVID doesn't pose much risk to you (or others around you - most people have enough common sense to know not to get too close to vulnerable people anyway if they are sick..)The options are keep everything locked down till herd immunity, or open with restrictions on those who aren't vaccinated, most countries will choose the latter.
Most countries are are already opening up without a 2 tier system, some have chosen a 2 tier system, but i doubt most will..and i am sure it will be legally challenged in countries that do go down a 2 tier systemThis is of course your choice, but that doesn't mean you don't have to live with the consequences of your choice which is what you seem to want (and again, parallels with abortion do not exist).
What do you not understand, making it so that someone can't go out for a meal, or go the cinema etc, or even go to work..means not taking the vaccine isn't really a viable choice for most people - it is essentially making it mandatory...
People shouldn't have to live with such extreme draconian consequences of not taking a vaccine.
Such extreme consequences mean it is not a choice..Countries with better and worse health systems are just as locked down as Ireland.
Ireland has the most stringent and longest lockdown in Europe, so no, most other countries are not just as locked down as Ireland, and the HSE is also extremely inefficient and costs more per person, than far better health systems around the world..GreatIt is lockdowns until herd immunity, or open up with restrictions on those not vaccinated.
Why is it - there is alternatives to lockdowns, eg:testing...
Lockdowns should be a last resort due to collateral damage, not the default position..
Also we were open a lot more last summer without the vaccines..no reason we can't open up the same now and soon...
Its seems a crazy position that this summer might be even more restrictive than last year, despite the fact we now know much more about COVID, how to treat it, how to prevent it, etc, and that over 1m vaccines have now been used...Everyone will be offered a vaccine, those who can't get a vaccine for medical reasons (pregnant women can now get COVID vaccines) will be relying on everyone else to get vaccinated, and if they are at high risk from COVID-19, will be cocooning until herd immunity is reached and community transmission is eliminated.
Cocooning is not, and never has been, mandatory, so if someone high risk who can't take the vaccine, want to go out for a meal, they should be able to too.
I really sincerely hope that no domestic passport or certification is used in Ireland or the UK, but if there really has to be one, people who cannot have the vaccine, or those who have a condition making it more riskier than the average person, must be given the passport as well...I'm pretty sure that a non digital cert will be available (if they even come in), mostly for the elderly, but modern life will use of phones to make it easier for people.
I have no issue with the vaccines and am happy people are choosing to do what is right for them, but the important word in all this has to be choice, Ireland (North or South) has never restricted access to normal functions of society on the basis of someones medical history..we have a long history of vaccines, and most people here are not anti-vax, we don't restrict peoples access to a bar if they haven't gotten a Tetanus jab, we don't stop children going to school if they haven't got the MMR - it shouldn't even be up for discussion that we are going to stop people doing certain activities in their own country on the basis of what vaccinations they have or haven't got..
I actually cannot believe there are people supporting a 2 tier society0 -
Originally posted by Kaiser: doesn't federal law trump local state laws?
No quite: the US Constitution lists specific areas of Federal legal authority, for example interstate commerce, foreign relations etc. This is followed by a clause which states more or lass that all other powers are reserved for the States. Subject of course to the condition that in doing so the States do not violate the basics of the US Constitution.
(Not a lawyer, may have omitted something, but I think the above is OK in very broad terms)0 -
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I live in the North, approved under emergency use here, and in the EU, the EMA have approved it under CMA which is subject to far less scrutiny than normal EMA approvals as per their own information........
..........It shouldn't even be up for discussion that we are going to stop people doing certain activities in their own country on the basis of what vaccinations they have or haven't got..
I actually cannot believe there are people supporting a 2 tier society
You'll just have to suspend your disbelief and accept conversion to totalitarianism with a smile.
Even now,I suggest the various (Temporary) restrictions on civil liberty have no longer any merit,and have not been necessary for some months now.
I contend that they are now disproportunate,discriminatory and unnecessary and should be immediately (or within the statutory 21 days) rescinded.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2020/si/121/made/en/printa) having regard to the immediate, exceptional and manifest risk posed to human life and public health by the spread of Covid-19 and to the matters specified in subsection (2) of section 31A, andTotal Tests Completed
4,117,128
Total Positive Tests
246,849
Total Positive Rate (%)
6Healthcare Figures
Healthcare figures relate to latest available statistics from HPSC, and are a minimum two days behind current date. These figures are updated on a daily basis.
Total Cases Hospitalised
13,728
Total Cases Requiring ICU
1,443
Healthcare Worker Cases
28,183
Covid related Deaths 4,732
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/covid-19-one-of-the-lowest-causes-of-death-in-ireland-between-june-and-september-2020-1.4511871The estimated population of Ireland in April 2020 was 4,977,443.Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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