Gordon Elliott

Robson99

Hoboo wrote: »

That's the difference between some punters/horse racing fans, and lovers of horses. They don't get it because the love and respect for the animal isn't there. If someone can't see what he did was gross misconduct at best, you just don't get it.

I'm with Ruby. Indefensible. Proper horse man, not some gob****e who hits an animal with Wavin beacause he hasn't the skills or intelligence.

You obviously have never worked with animals other than possibly a cat or a budgie . I suggest you work on a farm for a day or two.

tipptom

Hoboo wrote: »

That's the difference between some punters/horse racing fans, and lovers of horses. They don't get it because the love and respect for the animal isn't there. If someone can't see what he did was gross misconduct at best, you just don't get it.

I'm with Ruby. Indefensible. Proper horse man, not some gob****e who hits an animal with Wavin beacause he hasn't the skills or intelligence.

Who is defending what he done?

I dont know anyone in racing who has not said what he done was wrong.

tipptom

Shemale wrote: »

I havent seen any pictures of zooloigists sitting on dead zebras

I dont see pet dogs or grannies housed with the Zebras in the zoo

Horses are bred for racing,they are not domestic pets,whats a Zebra doing in Dublin?

tipptom

naughto wrote: »

I support Charlotte I mean Gordon

Is there a reason why you wont just come out and say it?

Okay,who is this Charlotte and why do you support her?

Anniepowaaa

Hoboo wrote: »

That's the difference between some punters/horse racing fans, and lovers of horses. They don't get it because the love and respect for the animal isn't there. If someone can't see what he did was gross misconduct at best, you just don't get it.

I'm with Ruby. Indefensible. Proper horse man, not some gob****e who hits an animal with Wavin beacause he hasn't the skills or intelligence.

There will be no horses to love if not for racing , horses are next to useless in the modern world

Dr. Bre

Anniepowaaa wrote: »

There will be no horses to love if not for racing , horses are next to useless in the modern world

True. Horses would have been used in wars a long time ago. Nobody goes into war on horseback now

Coneygree

tipptom wrote: »

Is there a reason why you wont just come out and say it?

Okay,who is this Charlotte and why do you support her?

.

The Tetrarch

MOD note to partyguinness

Please be respectful when posting.

partyguinness wrote: »

Simple question: Are studs alowed to mate 'naturally' when they feel like it or are the forcibly made to mount (while restrained and sometimes hooded) while a bunch of lads stand around gawping with $$ twirling around in their eyes?

I pointed out in a previous point that Thoroughbreds are not a natural breed. They are not found in the wild.
It follows from that that there are no natural herds of mares running with stallions and breeding naturally - the term is "loose covering".
Occasionally mares are hobbled or wear boots to prevent damage from kicking.
You comment "a bunch of lads stand around gawping with $$ twirling around in their eyes" is written to provoke a reaction (flaming).

Please follow the rules when posting.
If you do not know the rules then read the rules, or do not post.

partyguinness

Robson99 wrote: »

You obviously have never worked with animals other than possibly a cat or a budgie . I suggest you work on a farm for a day or two.

It reminds me of an apt description of the series "Countryfile" on BBC 1 every Sunday night

"It's how City folk imagine how Country folk live." i.e. utterly sterilised and unrealistic.

All warm and cutesy where lambs dance with gay abandonment and blue birds sing all day on flowers. Cows horses and ponies peacefully and happily graze on healthy green pastures and live out their days in tranquil harmony.

Where I grew up (in rural Ireland) a farmer put it to me in stark terms: animals are for working or eating. Back in the mid-80s when we hung around after school, I saw plenty of rotting sheep and cow carcasses dumped by famers and thrown into rivers.

Farming, horse racing, hell even show jumping, is an industry. I am not saying right wrong or indifferent- it is an industry and a pure money-making exercise and we all play our part in it.

CFlat

Hopefully the IRHB see this for what it is, total nonsense. He should be fined a few grand for that photograph which was a incredibly stupid thing for him to do and make him donate it to one of those horse charities. You know the ones that look after horses that were left in fields with no feed or hayledge and gone to skin and bone. The horses that are genuinely miss treated that no one ever gets prosecuted for? Can you see where I'm going with this?

If there's any suspension of his licence it will be a travesty of justice for him and his yard and the 80 people that work there.

naughto

tipptom wrote: »

Is there a reason why you wont just come out and say it?

Okay,who is this Charlotte and why do you support her?

If you dont no then your not in the know charlotte I mean
Gordon is the dude that sat on a dead horse

th hen

I think the biggest lesson gordon needs to learn from it all is to act more professional.

He's a public figure in the sporting world and needs to run his yard with a bit more professionalism . It's a working yard , if rumours of bar are true he needs to close it while in a lockdown like every other public house. He needs to treat his staff in a professional manner and he needs to appreciate the horses he has and the owners. In short he needs to become more humble.

I think a lot of the public outcry stems moreso from the rumours and whatapps circulating about what's going on inside his yard than his actual crime. I think he's suffered enough media hatred now. Ihrb need to give there punishment , he needs to employ a serious pr person to work with him for next 2 years to help repair his reputation. If he gets winners people will move on. Minds are fickle.

partyguinness

The Tetrarch wrote: »

MOD note to partyguinness

Please be respectful when posting.

I pointed out in a previous point that Thoroughbreds are not a natural breed. They are not found in the wild.
It follows from that that there are no natural herds of mares running with stallions and breeding naturally - the term is "loose covering".
Occasionally mares are hobbled or wear boots to prevent damage from kicking.
You comment "a bunch of lads stand around gawping with $$ twirling around in their eyes" is written to provoke a reaction (flaming).

Please follow the rules when posting.
If you do not know the rules then read the rules, or do not post.

I appreciate why and how it is done and I have no particular opinion on it good bad or indifferent. My point is that horses are subjected to various practices against their will and this is generally accepted and 'approved' but a clown sits on a dead horse (which again was wrong) and everyone loses their freakin minds as if it that is way beyond the pale compared to what living horses are subjected to.

I just think we are all hypocrites.

Breeding and stud farms are vast money making enterprises and it is done for profit. Lads standing around waiting for the stallion to mount and hoping the investment will pay off i.e. make money in the future is not a contentious scene to paint. That may be an uncomfortable grubby picture for some but that is the reality and a picture anyone in the industry will recognise. I have stood there myself and watched it in the flesh.

I says

Silly Gilly wrote: »

There are nice characters here on the Racing forum. Blame everyone else but the perpetrator of the act. Throw in a little xenophobia from Tom and top it off with an admitting of animal cruelty from Robbo.

Some boys!

Read back my previous posts regarding what Elliot did and how I feel about it. It was wrong on so many levels and beyond the pale. The pitchfork brigade who you appear to take umbrage to my remark are the the very people preaching mental health and be kind virtue signalling, are the ones tearing strips of Elliot. He has messed up on so many levels it’s ultimately him in the cold light of day that’ll have to reflect on that episode for the rest of his life.

Shemale

tipptom wrote: »

I dont see pet dogs or grannies housed with the Zebras in the zoo

Horses are bred for racing,they are not domestic pets,whats a Zebra doing in Dublin?

Bred for the purpose of making money, like a race horse

The Tetrarch

partyguinness wrote: »

Breeding and stud farms are vast money making enterprises and it is done for profit. Lads standing around waiting for the stallion to mount and hoping the investment will pay off i.e. make money in the future is not a contentious scene to paint. That may be an uncomfortable grubby picture for some but that is the reality and a picture anyone in the industry will recognise. I have stood there myself and watched it in the flesh.

Again you are painting a picture that is not reality.
I am a small scale breeder with two mares, and a yearling.
If you read my earlier post I said I spent about 60k on breeding and received 2k.
And I gave details of 450+ yearlings bought at auction where the average loss per horse was about 45k.
That is the usual financial outcome for owners - constant expenses.

The bigger stallion stud farms make money from stallion fees.
The stud farms that board mares for owners make a little money (I can not put my three thoroughbreds in my back garden so they are boarded out in Co Tipperary).
I have never gone to watch a mare of mine being covered by a stallion.
Two of my mares went to France about ten days ago, one was covered yesterday, the other not yet covered.
Why would I want to go to France to see my mares covered?
Last year one mare was in France for almost three months, visited the sire a few times, and did not get pregnant.

You say "Lads standing around waiting for the stallion to mount and hoping the investment will pay off i.e. make money in the future is not a contentious scene to paint. That may be an uncomfortable grubby picture for some but that is the reality ".
It is not the reality. If you like I will check with the stud where my mares are boarded and ask do the other mare owners travel to see their mare covered by the stallion.
It did not happen pre-Covid 19, and with the travel restrictions in place during Covid-19 owners would be breaking travel restrictions.

The Tetrarch

A little more detail about my non-attendance at my mares being covered by stallions. In three years it was about 13 or 14 coverings (one mare failed to get pregnant for two years). My attendance was 0.

Muahahaha

The Tetrarch wrote: »

A little more detail about my non-attendance at my mares being covered by stallions. In three years it was about 13 or 14 coverings (one mare failed to get pregnant for two years). My attendance was 0.

Just out of interest how does a breeder know if the mare has been covered by the stallion that was advertised. Like is it the norm in breeding that when the foal arrives you then get DNA tests to make sure or are breeders just putting all their trust in the stud? Has there ever been cases where the a different stallion was used and it came out later?

partyguinness

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Again you are painting a picture that is not reality.
I am a small scale breeder with two mares, and a yearling.
If you read my earlier post I said I spent about 60k on breeding and received 2k.
And I gave details of 450+ yearlings bought at auction where the average loss per horse was about 45k.
That is the usual financial outcome for owners - constant expenses.

The bigger stallion stud farms make money from stallion fees.
The stud farms that board mares for owners make a little money (I can not put my three thoroughbreds in my back garden so they are boarded out in Co Tipperary).
I have never gone to watch a mare of mine being covered by a stallion.
Two of my mares went to France about ten days ago, one was covered yesterday, the other not yet covered.
Why would I want to go to France to see my mares covered?
Last year one mare was in France for almost three months, visited the sire a few times, and did not get pregnant.

You say "Lads standing around waiting for the stallion to mount and hoping the investment will pay off i.e. make money in the future is not a contentious scene to paint. That may be an uncomfortable grubby picture for some but that is the reality ".
It is not the reality. If you like I will check with the stud where my mares are boarded and ask do the other mare owners travel to see their mare covered by the stallion.
It did not happen pre-Covid 19, and with the travel restrictions in place during Covid-19 owners would be breaking travel restrictions.

It is a reality. It may not be your reality but it does happen. I have seen it with my own two eyes. I am not picking an arguement here just saying that breeding is big business. Not for everyone granted but it is still a business/industry.

As you said you are a small breeder which is perhaps not overly appropriate when we are taking about the world the likes of Elliott reside (yes I know he is not a breeder himself but you get the drift).

The Tetrarch

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Again you are painting a picture that is not reality.
I am a small scale breeder with two mares, and a yearling.
If you read my earlier post I said I spent about 60k on breeding and received 2k.
And I gave details of 450+ yearlings bought at auction where the average loss per horse was about 45k.
That is the usual financial outcome for owners - constant expenses.

The bigger stallion stud farms make money from stallion fees.
The stud farms that board mares for owners make a little money (I can not put my three thoroughbreds in my back garden so they are boarded out in Co Tipperary).
I have never gone to watch a mare of mine being covered by a stallion.
Two of my mares went to France about ten days ago, one was covered yesterday, the other not yet covered.
Why would I want to go to France to see my mares covered?
Last year one mare was in France for almost three months, visited the sire a few times, and did not get pregnant.

You say "Lads standing around waiting for the stallion to mount and hoping the investment will pay off i.e. make money in the future is not a contentious scene to paint. That may be an uncomfortable grubby picture for some but that is the reality ".
It is not the reality. If you like I will check with the stud where my mares are boarded and ask do the other mare owners travel to see their mare covered by the stallion.
It did not happen pre-Covid 19, and with the travel restrictions in place during Covid-19 owners would be breaking travel restrictions.

I do not agree with the other posters perspective, but does arguing that people don't even make money from it not make it worse?

The Tetrarch

Muahahaha wrote: »

Just out of interest how does a breeder know if the mare has been covered by the stallion that was advertised. Like is it the norm in breeding that when the foal arrives you then get DNA tests to make sure or are breeders just putting all their trust in the stud? Has there ever been cases where the a different stallion was used and it came out later?

Good question, and I'll admit I did not know the answer.

I understand Coolmore Stud video each cover and archive the video to prove the correct stallion was used.
At a stallion fee of 30k, 50k, 75k ,100k or whatever they do not want uncertainty.

Weatherbys Scientific Laboratory has provided animal parentage testing services since 1985 and in 1998, introduced DNA technology which superseded blood-typing and provided further opportunities to confirm pedigrees of other animal species such as cattle, sheep, dogs and cats. The Laboratory now completes over 50,000 parentage verification tests per annum across the equine, bovine, canine and ovine species. This includes all Irish bred Thoroughbreds.

Weatherbys are the keepers of the stud book.
In 1791, James Weatherby published the first volume of the General Stud Book.
Back then when a horse was sold its parentage could be questionable.
People could claim the sire of the horse for sale was a famous sire when it was by a lesser sire.
James Weatherby visited the large studs (on horseback I presume) and copied out all the details from the private stud books.
Then he produced a General Stud Book covering all the thoroughbreds in the country.
The family firm have continues the practice with a new stud book every four years.

They have their head office in Wellingborough, Northamptonshire and also have an office in Naas, Co Kildare.

Has there ever been cases where the a different stallion was used and it came out later?
Yes, but I do not have a list at present.
The most famous case was Bend Or (His name is the heraldic term for "a bend (i.e. diagonal stripe) that is golden or yellow in color (or)", and is a reference to the ancient former arms of the Grosvenor family which were adjudged against them in 1389 to the Scrope family in the most famous case ever heard before the Court of Chivalry, known as Scrope v Grosvenor.)
Bend Or won the Epsom Derby, but actually the horse than ran was Tadcaster.

Challenge to Pedigree
In the summer a challenge was lodged by the owners of Robert the Devil against Bend Or's Derby win on the grounds of him being entered under the wrong description.
It was alleged that his dam was not Rouge Rose, but a mare called Clemence.
At Eaton Stud, both Rouge Rose and Clemence had a foal by Doncaster in 1877.
It was suggested that the two foals had been mixed up and that it was the horse registered as Tadcaster (i.e. the Clemence foal) that won the Derby.
The accusation came from a former groom who formerly worked for the Duke.
During the investigation, the Eaton Stud book was produced, but was found to contain a number of errors.
The objection was overruled by the Jockey Club, but controversy still remains today.
Recent research which compared DNA of Bend Or to that of Tadcaster relatives suggested the two had indeed been switched as foals.

Dr. Mim Bower startled the racing world in 2012 when she revealed that the old rumor that Bend Or had been replaced by a ringer was indeed true.
Via DNA Dr. Bower along with a team from Royal Veterinarian College, were able to test the supposed Bend Or's skeleton mtDNA and it revealed that the horse that was thought to be Bend Or, was instead his stable mate, Tadcaster.

A very high percentage of horses descend in male line from Bend Or (or really from Tadcaster). My three fillies all do.

It has also been common practice to cover a mare by a stallion, and if she is not pregnant she is covered again a month later.
Often the second cover is by a different stallion, and in the stud book you will often see: Speedy King by Winged Prince or Quick Dawn out of Speedy Lady i.e. we do not know which of the two covering sires is the father.

A book I have on Australian and New Zealand breeding suggests that "errors" may be as high as 10% there in the past.
One case is mentioned where the stallion stud owner (three stallions) went on business to Japan, left his stallion master in charge with a list of agreed matings.
The stallion master resigned and left while the owner was away, and the wife and a stud hand were left to try to put the correct stallions to the correct mares without a list.

deeks

Does anyone know if we're expecting a verdict / punishment today or how long the hearing is expected to last?

Itziger

deeks wrote: »

Does anyone know if we're expecting a verdict / punishment today or how long the hearing is expected to last?

I know, there's only so many times a fella can hit the refresh key, FFS.

realdanbreen

deeks wrote: »

Does anyone know if we're expecting a verdict / punishment today or how long the hearing is expected to last?

If it was me sitting in I'd release the findings sometime after 9.30pm.
Why would you want it appearing on the evening news or tomorrows papers.
I would also be hoping perhaps for some big news, maybe an assassination attempt or something to occur around the same time.:cool:

deeks

realdanbreen wrote: »

If it was me sitting in I'd release the findings sometime after 9.30pm.
Why would you want it appearing on the evening news or tomorrows papers.
I would also be hoping perhaps for some big news, maybe an assassination attempt or something to occur around the same time.:cool:

Very true

partyguinness

realdanbreen wrote: »

If it was me sitting in I'd release the findings sometime after 9.30pm.
Why would you want it appearing on the evening news or tomorrows papers.
I would also be hoping perhaps for some big news, maybe an assassination attempt or something to occur around the same time.:cool:

or hope to God there is a massive breakthrough with a Covid vaccine or maybe Prince Philip dies.

The Tetrarch

partyguinness wrote: »

It is a reality. It may not be your reality but it does happen. I have seen it with my own two eyes. I am not picking an arguement here just saying that breeding is big business. Not for everyone granted but it is still a business/industry.

As you said you are a small breeder which is perhaps not overly appropriate when we are taking about the world the likes of Elliott reside (yes I know he is not a breeder himself but you get the drift).

If you are an employee at a stallion stud farm (are you?) it may appear that the person who brings the mare is the owner.
That may be the case with a farmer who has one NH mare and does everything himself.

At present a mare is driven to the stallion farm, the driver remains in the vehicle, the documentation is scanned through the window, the stallion farm employees unload the mare, bring her to the stallion, and they bring her back. There is no gawking.

It is big business for the stallion studs. The owner of the largest stallion stud in Ireland is a billionaire. He lives in Barbados most of the year.

The average race earnings in Ireland per horse per year is about 8k, but when you remember that includes big six figure prizes in the Irish Derby and Irish Champion Stakes, the real average is about 6k.

Now 6k average annual earnings per horse does not pay you to buy a horse (a very very cheap one would be 10k), pay 20k annual training fees (plus c. 7% of winnings to the trainer), pay the vet, pay the jockey (plus c. 7% of winnings).
The people who are looking at racing without knowing much, or knowing only one angle, posting opinions on boards.ie, assume every owner makes millions, a totally false view.

I am speaking to the stud where my yearling is boarding with a view to having her trained in France and raced in France next year.
How unpatriotic!
Yes, but the prize money every race there beats what is paid in Ireland by a wide margin, the race fields are much smaller, and chances are therefore greater.
Just now I looked at the second race at Deauville today: 8 runners, 7 prizes.

On top of the prizemoney in flat races, France Galop also pays a premium to owners of horses born and bred in France (or which have been assimilated) that have won prize-money in a race.
The premium varies from 64% for 2, 3 and 4-year-olds to 43% for horses aged 5 or older.

I mentioned this to Brian Kavanagh, chief executive of HRI, that the prizemoney here was atrocious, a fraction of what it costs to race a horse.
I said the French system makes owning a horse possible as their prizemoney is good, and on top of that they pay premiums.
His answer "They have a different system". My reply "Copy it". No reply from our leader.

realdanbreen

partyguinness wrote: »

or hope to God there is a massive breakthrough with a Covid vaccine or maybe Prince Philip dies.

Steady on, I'm only looking for an attempted assassination not pure old Philip to expire!

tipptom

Silly Gilly wrote: »

There are nice characters here on the Racing forum. Blame everyone else but the perpetrator of the act. Throw in a little xenophobia from Tom and top it off with an admitting of animal cruelty from Robbo.

Some boys!

Cmon,Im still waiting for your evidence that i said the BHA was so quick to go after Elliot was that HE WAS IRISH,where have i said that?

I have made it abundantly clear why i think they went to another juristiction after one day was because they were under severe pressure at home after the Panorama programme which only showed images of the sheikh on British racecourses

They refused to deal with the repeated serious criminal offences on British soil but rushed into the irish case as a diversion and made fools of themselves then by having to row back on telling owners to pull their horses out of Elliots yard for cheltenham.

Muahahaha

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Good question, and I'll admit I did not know the answer.

I understand Coolmore Stud video each cover and archive the video to prove the correct stallion was used.
At a stallion fee of 30k, 50k, 75k ,100k or whatever they do not want uncertainty.

Thanks for the detailed reply, its very interesting. And yeah given the money involved it doesnt surprise me that DNA testing is involved. But would imagine before that technology came in the system was open to being played.

Just as an aside- is there a reason behind using actual covering by a stallion rather than artificial insemination. Like is the mare always in heat or only at certain times of the year? Would breeders do some tests to check the mare is ovulating at the correct time before covering?