Sinn Fein cancels bomber commemoration

JimCore

handlemaster wrote: »

Imagine a commemoration for an ISIS bomber in ireland. Same things. Tragic a main political party thinks this is a good idea.

in your opinion why did a bomber like him come into existence?

FileNotFound

[Deleted User] wrote: »

i dont think they should.....them lads died fighting oppression,same as people centuries before them.....

shinners are glad to push and highlight whats happening in palestine,i dont think they should jettison commerating their own members,who fought oppression



Tom clarke,commerated annualy by the state as a 1916 hero(was its main architect),was arrested as part of a fenian dynamite campaign in london.....what is substabcially different to this young lad?



Theres people in ireland,whom are happy to spend day and night highlighting the ira past of sinn fein,this is hardly news to anyone.......this type coverage is going nowhere,so they may embrace it and face down the hypocrites,while continuing to push for social and econmic reform

By the laws of our land, as laid out by those who fought for our freedoms and leaders since.

This lad was a criminal.

End of really. The Republic of Ireland does not recognise him as anything else. If they want to run our country they should agree with our laws.

Don't see the issue with that. Or maybe we have Trumpy McDonald over Sinn Fein now.

castletownman

I know the family, particularly the father, who I'd have had a pint with many a time. Big GAA man (loves jeering me about my allegiences), and obviously Shinner (to the extent that he canvassed for Mythen at the last GE) but have never got the impression he in any way condones terrorism.

Interestingly, his son was caught up in controversy last year when a fellow member of the Sinn Fein branch he is chairman of was stung giving a prominent local business man, among others, absolute vile abuse online under an assumed name. But the fella in question would be at the 'extreme, RA-head' of the spectrum among SF supporters.

I choose to believe their claims that they didn't know he was in the IRA, but I am opposed to their political beliefs. A family have the right to remember their son.

CrazyFather1

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

They've captured and energised a hugely disenfranchised generation and resulted in widespread, hitherto unseen, political engagement among that generation. It's not really about individual results but about trends. It's also fairly widely recognised that SF would have been the biggest party in the current Dáil had they realised their electoral potential before the deadline for declaring candidates, particularly in several of the Dublin constituencies.

They definitely are flying high at the moment and all I'm saying is that sh!te like this is probably the only thing that can bring them down, ergo even if they refuse to see the inherent immorality in commemorating atrocities committed against civilians, it baffles my mind that they can't at least see how it's a stupid move politically speaking.

Most of their newfound young support is in spite of, not because of, their links to historical terrorism. Continually publicising this sh!te is one way to cause at least some of those voters to back off and vote for PBP instead.

As someone who hopes to see an SF-led coalition without either FF or FG's involvement after the next election (again, in spite of, rather than because of, The Troubles) I just wish they'd realise how bad the optics are in this kind of sh!te and back off a bit. In the same way as Cullinane's "up the ra" comment on election results night caused me to facepalm in a massive way.

I also think it's quite amusing that some will surely accuse me of being some kind of hypocrite or double-speaker for this. The idea that one can support a party in general while condemning specific policy positions or cultural aspects of that party is one of the very, very toxic aspects of Irish politics - much like the three line whip, this "all in or all out" thing is utterly f*cking asinine.

Take the whole North and troubles etc out of it.

Less than 12 months earlier to the last election Mary Lou nearly got the sack because of the terrible results in the Local elections. This was because of how terrible the party was.
People seem to ignore that some people, not all, just voted because they didn't want to vote for FF/FG and it was a revolt vote.

People normally vote on policies, not just to piss off the other parties. Some of course will vote XYZ and always vote XYZ. In the next election will people still just vote for a party to piss off the others? What happens if they decide this time to just vote for independents?

In a direct competition is the policies of SF better to those form the other parties?will they stand up to interrogation?

I think that is the main discussion, probably not for this thread. Normally when someone has brought up these points instead of answers they get abuse, not from FF/FG supporters but from SF supporters. This alone would suggest they are aware the policies are pants

Eric Cartman

handlemaster wrote: »

Imagine a commemoration for an ISIS bomber in ireland. Same things. Tragic a main political party thinks this is a good idea.

To be honest, with michael D eulogising dictators and our government & medias complete blinkers towards the toxic elements of islam, that isnt that shocking or far fetched an idea

Bobeagleburger

Eric Cartman wrote: »

To be honest, with michael D eulogising dictators and our government & medias complete blinkers towards the toxic elements of islam, that isnt that shocking or far fetched an idea

Far fetched for 99.99% of the population.

Eric Cartman

JimCore wrote: »

in your opinion why did a bomber like him come into existence?

A vulnerable man with a heroin addiction was conned by sinn fein into fighting a fake war making bombs to hurt innocent civilians

Now dont get me wrong, the guy was an absolute abomination and should never be celebrated, but SF had a big hand in making him an abomination

tipptom

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Good. This was a f*cking stupid idea, and wrong. SF badly need to drop the historical support for IRA activities which targeted innocent civilians in England, they're flying high on the basis of modern day economic and social ideology and they really, really don't need this sh!te which can only alienate the legion of young voters they've been courting.

Fair play to them for dropping the commemoration, IMO they should do a lot more than this an issue an official statement from party HQ condemning it as incendiary and inflammatory.

I disagree with you there Patrick
It would be shocking if they try to hide away former IRA members who died in action.
It would be devastating and very fractious for the party and this is why FG/FF jump on stuff like this because they think it could lead to a split which would benifit them to keep them in power

The IRA had to fight a guerilla campaign in their own country against one of the biggest and most hated terrorist machines in the world with a handful of men and women in comparison
The British didnt give a sh*t about deaths in NI and i could understand that there would be a plan to take it to Britain in an attempt to tell the British goverment that you cant sit comfortably from afar anymore.
I personaly didnt agree with a lot of it but i could see how their reasoning behind it
The British attempted the same with the Dublin/Monaghan bombings except the IRA bombings did not have the Irish government approval and expertise supplied

Everthing was tried in the last election by the FG/FF/irish media in the last election to bring up stuff like this and it just helped SF as far as votes were concerned imo

It was when the IRA started bombing strategic and financial districts in Britain that the British goverment started to try and put wrongs to right for the Catholic population in NI not because it was the right thing to do but because they could see that it was going to have devastating consequences for Britain and there was not much they could do about it if the IRA succeded with just 1 in 5

I dont agree with some of the things the IRA done,dont agree with some of SFs policys,think MLM is a poor leader and debater,agree GAs was in the IRA and didnt mind people calling SF SF/IRA when the IRA were in existance and i think they need to take a more robust approach in pushing back against it.

Why would they apologise if they are commerating someone among themselves just because the Irish media atarts shouting about it and publicising it on behalf of FF/FG.
They are not demanding anybody else commemorate him

tipptom

Eric Cartman wrote: »

A vulnerable man with a heroin addiction was conned by sinn fein into fighting a fake war making bombs to hurt innocent civilians

Now dont get me wrong, the guy was an absolute abomination and should never be celebrated, but SF had a big hand in making him an abomination

Who had a heroin addiction?

CrazyFather1

Deleted User wrote: »

you wouldnt think,the carryon at drumcree the previous summer and the north going to the brink of civil war.....would motivate,even the most peace loving person to no longer stand by,and do nothing??

So what did you do?

Natterjack from Kerry

tipptom wrote: »

I disagree with you there Patrick
It would be shocking if they try to hide away former IRA members who died in action.

The IRA had to fight a guerilla campaign in their own country against one of the biggest and most hated terrorist machines in the world with a handful of men and women in comparison

They IRA didnt have to fight a terrorist campaign. They could have chosen not to - but being despicable people without moral compass or much semblance of civilsation about them, did murder and maim. It was a free choice to do so by those who did, and good people didnt, bad people did.

It would be shocking - as they are as bad a people as the IRA members who died, so one should expect no better.

Scratchly

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

They IRA didnt have to fight a terrorist campaign. They could have chosen not to - but being despicable people without moral compass or much semblance of civilsation about them, did murder and maim. It was a free choice to do so by those who did, and good people didnt, bad people did.

It would be shocking - as they are as bad a people as the IRA members who died, so one should expect no better.

Hence why they kept the organised crime going. They were never heroes fighting a war. They were thugs and scumbags looking for opportunities to act like thugs and scumbags. Once one avenue for scumbaggery was closed they found others.

And this is another example of the fact those thugs and scumbags aren't gone away. Still celebrating scumbags as heroes.

joe40

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

They IRA didnt have to fight a terrorist campaign. They could have chosen not to - but being despicable people without moral compass or much semblance of civilsation about them, did murder and maim. It was a free choice to do so by those who did, and good people didnt, bad people did.

It would be shocking - as they are as bad a people as the IRA members who died, so one should expect no better.

The war of independence was a terrorist campaign.
Like previous posters there are a lot of acts committed by the IRA which are indefensible. However the conflict was complex and was a direct result of partition.
The 26 counties fought a bitter campaign, and then a bitter civil war.
We have no problem celebrating and commemorating that part of our history.

tipptom

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

They IRA didnt have to fight a terrorist campaign. They could have chosen not to - but being despicable people without moral compass or much semblance of civilsation about them, did murder and maim. It was a free choice to do so by those who did, and good people didnt, bad people did.

It would be shocking - as they are as bad a people as the IRA members who died, so one should expect no better.

Easy for you to say from the comfort and safety of the arse hole of Kerry where they que up in court to shake the hand of a rapist after he is convicted so dont talk to me about a moral compass

smurgen

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

They IRA didnt have to fight a terrorist campaign. They could have chosen not to - but being despicable people without moral compass or much semblance of civilsation about them, did murder and maim. It was a free choice to do so by those who did, and good people didnt, bad people did.

It would be shocking - as they are as bad a people as the IRA members who died, so one should expect no better.

Not really you see the British essential created the need for the IRA. They were a malignant hostile foreign invader in our land and no amount of whitewashing will get over that. You have to remember how bad they are really. There's amnesia in circles about the atrocities carried out by the British such as the Mau Mau uprising. So I'd look there first before you talk of dispicable people and in my opinion the poppy wearing should come with a big disclaimer. Supporting the military means supporting those that carried out rape,murder and war crimes. The British if you look it up literally ran concentration camps in Kenya in the 50's and 60's.

Scratchly

tipptom wrote: »

Easy for you to say from the comfort and safety of the arse hole of Kerry

Unlike O'Brien growing up in occupied Gorey? He had **** all to do with anything. He chose to get involved to go plant bombs because he was a deluded scumbag.

CrazyFather1

smurgen wrote: »

Not really you see the British essential created the need for the IRA. They were a malignant hostile foreign invader in our land and no amount of whitewashing will get over that. You have to remember how bad they are really. There's amnesia in circles about the atrocities carried out by the British such as the Mau Mau uprising. So I'd look there first before you talk of dispicable people and in my opinion the poppy wearing should come with a big disclaimer. Supporting the military means supporting those that carried out rape,murder and war crimes. The British if you look it up literally ran concentration camps in Kenya in the 50's and 60's.

What has any of that to do with Northern Ireland?

CrazyFather1

tipptom wrote: »

Easy for you to say from the comfort and safety of the arse hole of Kerry where they que up in court to shake the hand of a rapist after he is convicted so dont talk to me about a moral compass

What?

smurgen

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

What has any of that to do with Northern Ireland?

There's plenty of human rights abuses. Murder and terrorism by the British there also. It's a pity they inflicted such terrorism on us this destabilizing the entire region.

runawaybishop

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Imo he did



Used he not give warnings,when planting the bomb....bit of an illogical mismomer there in that case to say he wanted on kill innocents imo



Youd be happy for your children to stand by and done nating,when brits blaggarding and terrorising people in ireland....each to their own i guess

Who on that bus was he protecting me from? He was a terrorist scumbag and nothing he did was on my behalf. Serves him right, pity others got injured.

Holding a commemoration for a fool who tried to murder innocents. I don't care how bad the other parties get, I will never vote for SF due to this carry on.

walshb

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Good. This was a f*cking stupid idea, and wrong. SF badly need to drop the historical support for IRA activities which targeted innocent civilians in England, .

This is exactly my point and issue

It's 2021 now, not the 1980s...

SF seem to have not at all progressed, moved on, healed and changed...as regards death and violence and armed struggle

SF during the troubles were the main reason we got peace. I absolutely commend them for that, and applaud them for it

But today is not then. They have to try and move away from this hanging on and glorifying a time when many people suffered so terrible...

People today want to move on and try and continue to build peace and harmony, and this glorifying attitude that SF cannot seem to drop, is wrong,m and is rightly being called out.

I do not want a party in my country, that may be in charge, on this up the RA nonsense.....

The IRA served their time and purpose, as bad as some may see that, without the IRA/SF, we would not have been given the chance for peace

BUT, we need to drop it now.......

No harm in not forgetting, but actively remembering needs careful consideration....there are too many sensitivities here on all sides

People don't need so called democratic and peaceful people/parties commemorating so publicly acts of violence, where people suffered terrible, not matter why the acts were carried out.

It's just bad form...and only emphasizes and keeps the image up of this anti England buzz off some people, when really, most Irish people are absolutely not anti England.

Simple: SF today SHOULD NOT BE the SF from years ago.....they just shouldn't. We have all moved on and changed.

People here seeing no issue with the up the RA, and tweets celebrating death is just obscene.

And, is there anyone in the party with any common sense and leadership? To move away from this actively hanging on to atrocities does not at all sit well with many. SF would get a lot more support if they changed here.

Phoebas

Phoebas wrote: »

I'm not sure that it has raised any questions about Sinn Fein's position in relation to past terrorism.

We know what their position is. They're in favour of it.

Sure. So maybe the other parties can move into something else?

Natterjack from Kerry

Deleted User wrote: »

Sure. So maybe the other parties can move into something else?

I thinks it a point worth raising repeatedly though, and they are right to do it. While SF members and activists are supporters of terrorism, I dont think all who vote for them are. I would guess more likely, they dont know what they are really voting for, and are unaware that they are victims of a united Ireland strategy controlled from abroad. Quote apart from being supporters of murder and violence, SF is the most devious and dishonest party going - and calling this out is the right thing to do.

Natterjack from Kerry

joe40 wrote: »

The war of independence was a terrorist campaign.
Like previous posters there are a lot of acts committed by the IRA which are indefensible. However the conflict was complex and was a direct result of partition.
The 26 counties fought a bitter campaign, and then a bitter civil war.
We have no problem celebrating and commemorating that part of our history.

Speak for yourself there. Many of us have not been brainwashed into worshiping the 'glorious' terrorists of 1916 and the war of independence, and are consistent, regarding them with equal abhorrence as we do SF and the IRA, and unionist murder gangs of more recent NI history.

Triangle

smurgen wrote: »

Not really you see the British essential created the need for the IRA. They were a malignant hostile foreign invader in our land and no amount of whitewashing will get over that. You have to remember how bad they are really. There's amnesia in circles about the atrocities carried out by the British such as the Mau Mau uprising. So I'd look there first before you talk of dispicable people and in my opinion the poppy wearing should come with a big disclaimer. Supporting the military means supporting those that carried out rape,murder and war crimes. The British if you look it up literally ran concentration camps in Kenya in the 50's and 60's.

While I agree that the British in NI created the anger that lead to the IRA. Some of the stuff the IRA did is inexcusable. Putting bombs in shops/streets was targeting civilians.
This is completely different from targeting the British armed forces.
They were not just a terrorist organisation, they were hardened criminals.

hatrickpatrick

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

Take the whole North and troubles etc out of it.

Less than 12 months earlier to the last election Mary Lou nearly got the sack because of the terrible results in the Local elections. This was because of how terrible the party was.
People seem to ignore that some people, not all, just voted because they didn't want to vote for FF/FG and it was a revolt vote.

People normally vote on policies, not just to piss off the other parties. Some of course will vote XYZ and always vote XYZ. In the next election will people still just vote for a party to piss off the others? What happens if they decide this time to just vote for independents?

In a direct competition is the policies of SF better to those form the other parties?will they stand up to interrogation?

I think that is the main discussion, probably not for this thread. Normally when someone has brought up these points instead of answers they get abuse, not from FF/FG supporters but from SF supporters. This alone would suggest they are aware the policies are pants

What changed in those twelve months, in your opinion? I witnessed the change in real time and the primary driver of it at least in my own circle was an unprecedented wave of rent inflation. Truly staggering figures particularly for some parts of Dublin - to give you one example, a friend of mine who had been paying market rate ~€1,250 for one year, for a very spacious one bedroom apartment owned by a small time landlord who had to take the flat back for her son who was coming home from college abroad, emerged into a market in which she was expected to pay €1,650 (and that was at the cheap end of the scale) for a much smaller flat in a building owned by a vulture fund who collected rent and did absolutely nothing else. This place had holes in the windows and serious condensation issues to name just a few.

Numerous other friends of mine were forced to move home in their late twenties during that same period Spring 2018 - Winter 2019, because their rents were skyrocketing to completely obscene levels and every loophole in the book was being used to circumvent RPZ legislation. Repossession for renovation or personal use only for the unchanged flat to appear on Daft or AirBnB almost immediately with an inflated price, etc. People were seriously getting screwed in ways which are extremely difficult to properly explain in a post like this, but people were really really suffering and seeing their lives backslide in their twenties because this inflation was essentially forcing them to reverse the progress they'd made in living independent lives, and forcing them back into either their family homes or into crowded accommodation where they had previously been able to afford far better conditions.

Fine Gael fiddled while Rome burned during the same period, and the policy of "let them eat cake" pushed by Eoghan Murphy, who told this generation that they should be "excited" and "privileged" to live in a glorified hostel for €1,400 per month while his government blocked social housing developments all over Dublin on the basis that the sell-off to the private sector wasn't big enough.

This is what has been driving the SF surge. Simple economics and mathematics. Any period of stagflation (cost of living inflation combined with stagnant take-home pay) will lead to political unrest and upheaval, but an arrogant, obnoxious, "let them ear cake" reaction from those in power will cause all-out rage and revolt.

During the same period, SF were among the most vocal in trying to stop the further privatisation of the housing system (most notably O'Devaney Gardens in Dublin) and this shone through in every one of the debates leading up to the election.

Point is, none of these issues have gone away. The cost of living to income ratio is still increasing and FFG don't appear to have literally any interest whatsoever in doing anything to solve it. Meanwhile, many of their policies actively exacerbate it. SF is riding the wave simply by promising to reverse many of these policies - it's not even necessarily about actively introducing new ones, people are terrified that FFG's policies are putting us on an irreversible road to poverty by actively encouraging cost of living inflation and intentionally throwing away the state's main tools to fight it.

SF will continue to grow in popularity as long as this remains the case - unless they alienate these newfound supporters with sh!te like this commemoration. That's why I'm saying it's a bad idea and that party HQ needs to get a handle on it.

And before anyone uses the "this isn't a party thing, it's individual members doing solo runs", well, we heard last year about how SF's leadership is happy to intervene to ask its members to reign in their social media activity when it comes to publicly criticising party policy. If they can take action on that, they can take action on sh!te like this. Simple as that.

This kind of crap just massively pisses me off as someone who desperately wants to see a left wing government put in place before it's too late to reverse the wholescale conversion of the millennial generation into cash cows for investment funds. That's the primary reason people my age are supporting SF, it's an open goal right now and to piss that opportunity away with sh!te like this is unforgivable.

Just my opinion of course.

Gatling

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

During the same period, SF were among the most vocal in trying to stop the further privatisation of the housing system (most notably O'Devaney Gardens in Dublin) and this shone through in every one of the debates leading up to the election.

O devaney should have been flattened and redeveloped into private housing years ago,SF have blocked and delayed multiple social housing projects ,but they wanted to stop the privatisation of housing yeah no ,more populist nonsense,
They won't stop rents increasing we will bring legislation of course they will but rents and taxes generated by them will have them sitting down at the table say feed us more ,
Just like during the Crash they ran with the idea they had found alternative funding to the bailout , which they voted for but every time they were asked all they could alternatives such as ehhhh ehhhhh , ehhhhh more social housing yeah ,yeah ,still no answers

smurgen

Triangle wrote: »

While I agree that the British in NI created the anger that lead to the IRA. Some of the stuff the IRA did is inexcusable. Putting bombs in shops/streets was targeting civilians.
This is completely different from targeting the British armed forces.
They were not just a terrorist organisation, they were hardened criminals.

I don't agree with terrorism at all. But I am looking at it from a different angle I'm not sure how to articulate this fully but in my eyes there seems to be a complete lack of context as to where it comes from. There also seems to be a whitewash of what colonialism is. In my opinion colonialism is just terrorism with a better publicists. People talked of isis well ago which was interesting. I would compare the UK's establishment of a prodestant majority NI to the caliphate.

joe40

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Speak for yourself there. Many of us have not been brainwashed into worshiping the 'glorious' terrorists of 1916 and the war of independence, and are consistent, regarding them with equal abhorrence as we do SF and the IRA, and unionist murder gangs of more recent NI history.

Well in fairness I can have respect for that position. Even if I don't agree at least it is consistent.

tipptom

smurgen wrote: »

I don't agree with terrorism at all. But I am looking at it from a different angle I'm not sure how to articulate this fully but in my eyes there seems to be a complete lack of context as to where it comes from. There also seems to be a whitewash of what colonialism is. In my opinion colonialism is just terrorism with a better publicists. People talked of isis well ago which was interesting. I would compare the UK's establishment of a prodestant majority NI to the caliphate.

What amazes me is that the British PR machine can convince Irishmen that the people who fought back against the foreign terrorist British army war machine were the terrorists,in their own country

The Catholic NI people put up with and were cowed into submission for decades before the British allowed the Protestants to go and and burn them out of their own country before the IRA were forced into forming an army to fight for their very existance and defend their people

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is when good men and women do nothing

The IRA did do something and ensured this would not happen again and the Catholics of NI are now prospering for that after gaing a amount of equality,they just now need to stop the British terrorists from burning poor immigrants out of their homes