Athletics 2021

Ceepo

walshb wrote: »

Yes.


Sean is not at that type level..

To be fair, this is why Sean was taking about moving up. While he can still run a mile in 4 minutes, its no where near good enough get anywhere at European level never mind world level.

Also to add his training focus was more oriented towards a spring marathon, before they got cancelled due to the rise in covid numbers across Europe. He switched his focus to the indoors when they were confirmed..

walshb

Ceepo wrote: »

To be fair, this is why Sean was taking about moving up. While he can still run a mile in 4 minutes, its no where near good enough get anywhere at European level never mind world level.

Also to add his training focus was more oriented towards a spring marathon, before they got cancelled due to the rise in covid numbers across Europe. He switched his focus to the indoors when they were confirmed..

Yes...

Track running really is about levels.

You and the clock..

7:47 is a superb time. But won’t cut it at euro and world level..albeit 3000 is not a euro/world/Olympic distance outdoors, I think?!

These lads can go faster. It’s down to natural ability most the time..

Ceepo

walshb wrote: »

Yes...

Track running really is about levels.

You and the clock..

7:47 is a superb time. But won’t cut it at euro and world level..albeit 3000 is not a euro/world/Olympic distance outdoors, I think?!

These lads can go faster. It’s down to natural ability most the time..

Not really about you and the clock. Its not a time trial. Track is about racing
Sean's pb is faster than the winning time today.
There are loads of lads that can run fast times but cant win. Charlie Grice springs to mind, 3.30 1500m but struggles to win AAA. Great time trailer but not a good racer
Sean has his strengths, but changing pace or sprint finish aren't his.
But I do agree that 7.47 is not world class.

Chivito550

I think Tobin was a little hard on himself. He performed well in the heats and got a PB. It wasn't there today, but there was nothing "embarrassing" about it, despite what he said.

Ceepo

Chivito550 wrote: »

I think Tobin was a little hard on himself. He performed well in the heats and got a PB. It wasn't there today, but there was nothing "embarrassing" about it, despite what he said.

Totally agree

walshb

Ceepo wrote: »

Not really about you and the clock. Its not a time trial. Track is about racing
Sean's pb is faster than the winning time today.
There are loads of lads that can run fast times but cant win. Charlie Grice springs to mind, 3.30 1500m but struggles to win AAA. Great time trailer but not a good racer
Sean has his strengths, but changing pace or sprint finish aren't his.
But I do agree that 7.47 is not world class.

I didn’t mean you and the clock in the sense of racing.

More, you and the clock as to where your speed lies..

If you cannot get to these world class times, then there is a chance you won’t medal.

You can only race as good as you can, but at times it’s down to simply how fast you can go..

When the elites start to turn the screw and inject the pace, this is where the clock kicks in, and you either can go with them or not..

Good analogy: let’s say Sean went and ran his PB today, the others would have ran in the low 7:40s and lower. Their speed and level allows this..

Ceepo

walshb wrote: »

I didn’t mean you and the clock in the sense of racing.

More, you and the clock as to where your speed lies..

If you cannot get to these world class times, then there is a chance you won’t medal.

You can only race as good as you can, but at times it’s down to simply how fast you can go..

When the elites start to turn the screw and inject the pace, this is where the clock kicks in, and you either can go with them or not..

Good analogy: let’s say Sean went and ran his PB today, the others would have ran in the low 7:40s and lower. Their speed and level allows this..

As I said in a previous post, I'm fully aware of Sean's level.

Edit, just to say, as a country that excelled at middle distance at one point Sean's time ranks him 6th fastest Irish man over 3k.

BobBobBobBob

BobBobBobBob wrote: »

Some great performances over the last week or so for the 800 but unfortunately I don't think we will be anywhere near the medals in Torun.

I was right

Tombo2001

BobBobBobBob wrote: »

I was right

What is your point?

It was pretty clear once Ciara Mageean dropped out that we had no strong medal contenders. Phil Healy was 4th, which is not traditionally in the category of 'nowhere near' 3rd.

On balance, I'd say the team outperformed expectations and overall it was a great championships.

If you are an athletics fan, you'd be impresssed by it.

Tombo2001

Chivito550 wrote: »

I think Tobin was a little hard on himself. He performed well in the heats and got a PB. It wasn't there today, but there was nothing "embarrassing" about it, despite what he said.

I think his issue is that at a critical moment in the race, he made a conservative decision instead of I suppose throwing caution to the wind. Could have made the difference between 11th and 8th. Or could have mean he blew up badly with 200m to go. I think in retrospect he'd rather have taken the risk.

Think he is being very hard on himself.

It was a hell of a race, janey mack it was so tight in that bunch with about 800m to go, it wasnt a comfort zone for any of them except Ingebritsen.

horsebox1977

Tombo2001 wrote: »

What is your point?

It was pretty clear once Ciara Mageean dropped out that we had no strong medal contenders. Phil Healy was 4th, which is not traditionally in the category of 'nowhere near' 3rd.

On balance, I'd say the team outperformed expectations and overall it was a great championships.

If you are an athletics fan, you'd be impresssed by it.

Mageen, English, Healy, Power and Buttner would have been considered medal contenders.
English has medalled twice at this level.

Buttner is still one of the fastest in Europe and Power not that far off either.

I wouldn't say that the team outperformed expectations - far from it.

O'Riordan - https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/european-indoors-irish-miss-out-on-medals-but-leave-with-some-positives-1.4503786?mode=amp&fbclid=IwAR02IRj9wxZ2GWisnhj-zZegYCsk4pMhEctpawfCgMz0NdJJxWY9Hq4rdzk

"With just four finalists, in three events, from the largest ever Irish team of 23 athletes, the 36th edition of the European Championships in Torun, Poland certainly fell short of expectation"

horsebox1977

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I dont agree.

I'd only have considered Mageean a strong medal contender and Healy as an outside bet.

Buttner, Power to get to the final maybe, but not medal. (Against that, for example I wouldnt have expected Coscoran or Lavin to do so well).

I know full well English's record but its his first major championship for some time. Disappointing for him not to make a final, but against that Cian McPhilips was very impressive.

I'm not having that. That's a lame excuse.
He's one of the most experienced athletes who competed in Torun.

Sacksian

Sean Tobin is a class athlete and I'd say, in the heat of the moment, he was just frustrated with the gap between him and those at the pointy end of it. But it's a race like that, rather than a steady pace or an all-out sprint in the last 200m, that really illustrates the gap in levels. I think Jakob ran sub 3:40 for the last 1500m (and looked comfortable doing it), with the last k in 2:21. I don't think Seán should be beating himself up over not being able to stick with that pace.

Jakey Rolling

The Jman wrote: »

Sean Tobin was narrowly beaten in the national 10,000 metres, says his best distance will be marathon yet is incredibly hard on himself for finishing 11th in a 3000 metre final. Surely he should be delighted to be making the final of a distance that is nowhere near long enough for him!!

I'd imagine longer term he'll move up in distance - been eager to see him to compete in a half marathon since seeing him run a solo 48:30 on a hilly enough 10 mile course in Cobh. I'd say it was worth 47 min odd on a faster course with competition, so should be able for below 63 for a half. Unfortunate then that the World Half champs in Poland were cancelled.

Probably too late to be thinking of marathon this year though. Hasn't he said he's targeting 5000m Olympic qualifying time?

ultrapercy

Sacksian wrote: »

Sean Tobin is a class athlete and I'd say, in the heat of the moment, he was just frustrated with the gap between him and those at the pointy end of it. But it's a race like that, rather than a steady pace or an all-out sprint in the last 200m, that really illustrates the gap in levels. I think Jakob ran sub 3:40 for the last 1500m (and looked comfortable doing it), with the last k in 2:21. I don't think Seán should be beating himself up over not being able to stick with that pace.

Interviews immediately after an event are not a true reflection of an athletes feelings imo. Still out of breath and endorphin soup rushing through the veins they haven't even digested the proceedings let alone processed them. He was up at 7.30 this morning for a 7 mile run before his flight home(strava) so hes dealing well with any disapointment. He made the final and in reality the best he could have wished for was a top 8. He left a few spots behind him but considering his training recently was gearing towards marathon before covid forced a lane change I think he can be content with his weekends work.

hurdles1

Comment from sarah lavin on the paper this morning regarding her performance over the weekend ... her lead leg is not good enough and letting her down... and she needs to get Derval o Rourkes lead leg... and Gillicks comments when asked how phil healy needed to run to medal in the final. He was fairly adamant she needed to be in 3rd at the bell and use her lane draw advantage..
Two of our most successful championship performers in any other federation woukd have paid roles either mentoring or helping coaching and giving athletes and coaches their experience of how to prepare for championship
And everthing that goes with that tapering negotiating rounds tactics different race type scenarios etc.. As far as im aware Derval is not involved with any athletes and Gillick has a small rile in athletics Ireland but not directly with the athletes. I know peoole will say they have new careers and young families and a liing to earn but im talking about paid roles ... keely Hodingson one if the stars of weekends just turned 19 very lucky to be coached by Trevor painter and mentored by his wife Jenny Meadows... Gillick would be perfect for a 400m group relay project.. Rob Heffernan doing a fantastic job with his walking project with pierce and Feidhlam doing a fantastic with his group and his link up with Nick bedue and sonia.
All these projects would need funding and if Irish athletics is going to progress it shoukd be made available and backed. We will always produce young talent but we need to utilise everyone anf thing thats available to guide this talent othetwise we will always comeback with the odd bronze medal or like this weekend.

walshb

horsebox1977 wrote: »

I'm not having that. That's a lame excuse.
He's one of the most experienced athletes who competed in Torun.

English is just too inconsistent.

Best to call it a day, probably. At least as regards being a possible medal contender in championships on the world stage

ultrapercy

walshb wrote: »

English is just too inconsistent.

Best to call it a day, probably. At least as regards being a possible medal contender in championships on the world stage

if thats the case the country should stand down all teams and most individuals from ever single sport apart from Katie Taylor and a few rowers.

deisedude

walshb wrote: »

English is just too inconsistent.

Best to call it a day, probably. At least as regards being a possible medal contender in championships on the world stage

He is only 27

I always get the feeling with English he lacks some resilience and if his head isn't 100% right he doesn't perform.

I know he got out of his heat but the warning signs were there. He kept looking back and nearly fell over himself

ThebitterLemon

ultrapercy wrote: »

if thats the case the country should stand down all teams and most individuals from ever single sport apart from Katie Taylor and a few rowers.

I wouldn’t bother J, looks like he’s just fishing from his rowing boat

TbL

walshb

ultrapercy wrote: »

if thats the case the country should stand down all teams and most individuals from ever single sport apart from Katie Taylor and a few rowers.

An interesting point

We aren't really all that good on the sporting stage internationally

I always felt we thought too much of ourselves....

Katie is the only one actually competing in a real victorious sense on the world stage, and at that, women's boxing seems very weak.

I think we need to blame GAA here, again.......sorry, a nod to the late Gerry. He was spot on....

Chivito550

walshb wrote: »

An interesting point

We aren't really all that good on the sporting stage internationally

I always felt we thought too much of ourselves....

Katie is the only one actually competing in a real victorious sense on the world stage, and at that, women's boxing seems very weak.

I think we need to blame GAA here, again.......sorry, a nod to the late Gerry. He was spot on....

Sanita Puspure? Paul O'Donovan? Sam Bennett?

walshb

Chivito550 wrote: »

Sanita Puspure? Paul O'Donovan? Sam Bennett?

We covered rowers..the female is Latvian. End of.

Yes, Bennet is quality..

Overall we just aren’t that good...

There is never any real sustained consistent triumphs...

It’s here and there..

Wottle

hurdles1 wrote: »

Comment from sarah lavin on the paper this morning regarding her performance over the weekend ... her lead leg is not good enough and letting her down... and she needs to get Derval o Rourkes lead leg... and Gillicks comments when asked how phil healy needed to run to medal in the final. He was fairly adamant she needed to be in 3rd at the bell and use her lane draw advantage..
Two of our most successful championship performers in any other federation woukd have paid roles either mentoring or helping coaching and giving athletes and coaches their experience of how to prepare for championship
And everthing that goes with that tapering negotiating rounds tactics different race type scenarios etc.. As far as im aware Derval is not involved with any athletes and Gillick has a small rile in athletics Ireland but not directly with the athletes. I know peoole will say they have new careers and young families and a liing to earn but im talking about paid roles ... keely Hodingson one if the stars of weekends just turned 19 very lucky to be coached by Trevor painter and mentored by his wife Jenny Meadows... Gillick would be perfect for a 400m group relay project.. Rob Heffernan doing a fantastic job with his walking project with pierce and Feidhlam doing a fantastic with his group and his link up with Nick bedue and sonia.
All these projects would need funding and if Irish athletics is going to progress it shoukd be made available and backed. We will always produce young talent but we need to utilise everyone anf thing thats available to guide this talent othetwise we will always comeback with the odd bronze medal or like this weekend.

On the Gillick point, the guy clearly knows his stuff and I know first hand he's happy to offer advice. I was coaching a very talented junior who was transitioning to the 400m. I have someone in common with Gillick, I asked them would he be interested in having a chat with the junior, within a couple of days he had given her a call, listened to her and offered her some advice. He did that for a complete stranger, I don't know him personally but seems a really good guy and should be involved at a higher level.

It seems to be common enough though, that we don't get former elites involved. I've seen this first hand at a former club of mine, a great club BTW who offer a lot. But they had a sub 4 minute miler running as a safety hivis vest with the teens and not coaching. Same club has a multiple national xc champ in their ranks but again not used with athletes who compete.

walshb

hurdles1 wrote: »

Gillicks comments when asked how phil healy needed to run to medal in the final. He was fairly adamant she needed to be in 3rd at the bell and use her lane draw advantage..
.

Hardly advice.....

It's a race that is decided by the fastest and strongest athletes...

Healy has produced PBs here....

Tactics indoors play very little in this type scenario....400 is a fast run race that has no real time to be overly tactical.....

No matter what position she is in at what point she needs to be constantly hitting PBs to beat some these girls...

Tombo2001

walshb wrote: »

We covered rowers..the female is Latvian. End of.

Yes, Bennet is quality..

Overall we just aren’t that good...

There is never any real sustained consistent triumphs...

It’s here and there..

Why are you saying this?

Is it not stating the obvious, and to what end.....?

Who are you arguing against here - was there someone saying we were world beaters? I didnt see that anywhere.

We are middle of the pack at best and once in a generation we uncover an absolute diamond, like Sonia or Sean Kelly or Rory McIlroy.

I've been following Irish sport a long time, and its always been like this. However, because I'm Irish and I like Irish sports, I will always support them internationally. Particularly in athletics, because I love athletics.

And incidentally, I would 100% include Sanita Puspure in that. Funny enough, in athletics sense, for a similar reason I could never get too excited about Alistair Cragg running for Ireland, he wasnt based here.... and similar to Sanita Puspure, I wouldnt particularly be cheering for Sinead Diver running for Australia, its interesting, she's made a go of it - but I would much much rather see Sanita Puspure win an olympic medal.

walshb

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Why are you saying this?

Is it not stating the obvious, and to what end.....?

Who are you arguing against here - was there someone saying we were world beaters? I didnt see that anywhere.

We are middle of the pack at best and once in a generation we uncover an absolute diamond, like Sonia or Sean Kelly or Rory McIlroy.

I've been following Irish sport a long time, and its always been like this. However, because I'm Irish and I like Irish sports, I will always support them internationally. Particularly in athletics, because I love athletics.

And incidentally, I would 100% include Sanita Puspure in that. Funny enough, in athletics sense, for a similar reason I could never get too excited about Alistair Cragg running for Ireland, he wasnt based here.... and similar to Sanita Puspure, I wouldnt particularly be cheering for Sinead Diver running for Australia, its interesting, she's made a go of it - but I would much much rather see Sanita Puspure win an olympic medal.

Saying what?

I just brought up a point, a view...that's all

Not arguing with anyone

I just feel we never really do all that much internationally.....that's all.

In other words, I don't see us as that good a sporting nation on the world stage....

I am well aware nobody said we were world beaters....

deisedude

We arent going to be contending properly even at a European level unless grassroots structures improve

Take a county the size of Cork while there may be plenty of clubs with an underage section how many of them have proper structured coaching in place to develop young athletes. I'd say less than 5

Chivito550

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Why are you saying this?

Is it not stating the obvious, and to what end.....?

Who are you arguing against here - was there someone saying we were world beaters? I didnt see that anywhere.

We are middle of the pack at best and once in a generation we uncover an absolute diamond, like Sonia or Sean Kelly or Rory McIlroy.

I've been following Irish sport a long time, and its always been like this. However, because I'm Irish and I like Irish sports, I will always support them internationally. Particularly in athletics, because I love athletics.

And incidentally, I would 100% include Sanita Puspure in that. Funny enough, in athletics sense, for a similar reason I could never get too excited about Alistair Cragg running for Ireland, he wasnt based here.... and similar to Sanita Puspure, I wouldnt particularly be cheering for Sinead Diver running for Australia, its interesting, she's made a go of it - but I would much much rather see Sanita Puspure win an olympic medal.

To be fair, Sinead wanted to run for Ireland, but the powers that be had other ideas.

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

English is just too inconsistent.

Best to call it a day, probably. At least as regards being a possible medal contender in championships on the world stage

Best to call it a day ?

He's likely to quality for a second Olympics later in the year, he just broke the National Indoor record at 800m and he's getting €20,000 a year in Sport Ireland funding at the minute.
That's ignoring the fact he's only 27 and if he could find his best form he absolutely has a chance to nick a medal at European Championships, Indoor or out over the next few years.


Now if you'd like to rephrase that as "English was well off Championship conteding standard there, I don't fancy him to win another medal at European level again", fair enough. But call it a day ?