Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

Windmill100000

Not sure if this article has been posted on here yet, but it's by an Irish person living in Sweden and may be of interest to some re comparisons.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/opinion/coronavirus-lockdowns-are-still-a-step-too-far-for-sweden-1.4473119%3fmode=amp

facehugger99

CalamariFritti wrote: »

There is one simple reason why lockdowns are so popular with the political class and our public health advisors. And I cant believe that people refuse to see it.

Lockdown is the easy approach. The consensus approach. The 'its no ones fault' we're all in this together approach.

If we restrict and lock down the hell out of it and people still die then sure what else could we have done? We did all we could do. If it doesnt work and if there was someone to blame for something its conveniently the public. Compliance just not good enough. We didnt lock down hard enough. Some people ruin it for all of us.

Whereas if you tried something else - like shielding the vulnerable, daily testing, shielding hospitals, whatever, anything else - you'd actually take ownership and responsibility. And open yourself up to potential blame.

As if there was ever a choice...

100%.

I've said it before, but if there is a choice between spending 10's of billions of our money or actually risking being held responsible, our politicians will choose to spend the money every single time.

The fact that the baying mob are cheerleading all this nonsense would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic.

Us taxpayers are currently writing a massive cheque to cover Micheal, Leo and Dr Tony's arses.

FintanMcluskey

SheepsClothing wrote: »

On the suicide front, good news out of the states:

https://twitter.com/tylerblack32/status/1357765466601775106

Is that guy suggesting total suicide deaths per year in the US is circa 8000?

Seem to conflict with below

https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/suicide.shtml

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) WISQARS Leading Causes of Death Reports, in 2018:
Suicide was the tenth leading cause of death overall in the United States, claiming the lives of over 48,000 people.

It also doesn’t correlate with below

More than 40 states have reported increases in opioid-related mortality as well as ongoing concerns for those with a mental illness or substance use disorder. This issue brief underscores the need to remove barriers to evidence-based treatment for those with a substance use disorder as well as for harm reduction services, including sterile needle and syringe services and naloxone.

normanoffside

I see our cash is about to run out

https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/1358759244066127872

FintanMcluskey

Windmill100000 wrote: »

Not sure if this article has been posted on here yet, but it's by an Irish person living in Sweden and may be of interest to some re comparisons.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/opinion/coronavirus-lockdowns-are-still-a-step-too-far-for-sweden-1.4473119%3fmode=amp

Cheers for posting that. Really backs up what I’ve been saying. The lady writing the piece hasn’t a great flair for understanding demographics though.

1 in 5 Swedes is over 65, they had a similar pro rata deaths rate of vulnerable as Ireland did.

I really liked the synopsis here

But ask any Swede today and surprisingly most would say they are happy with the status quo and the freedom it allows.

And things are finally beginning to change in Sweden, infection rates and death rates from Covid-19 have come down, a nationwide vaccination programme is under way and, although where I live, bars, restaurants, ski resorts and gyms all remain open, restrictions have been introduced on numbers.

Also the health care assistants caring for my elderly parents-in-law have started to wear masks and due to a Covid-19 outbreak in the local nursing home, my father-in-law has, only since last week, had to stop using this service.

These are small developments in the right direction but a far cry away from a nationwide lockdown. An initiative that would hugely jar with the Swedish culture of “lagom” meaning moderation, personal responsibility and autonomy.

Windmill100000

normanoffside wrote: »

I see our cash is about to run out

https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/1358759244066127872

Thankfully the number of cases are dropping and hospital numbers reducing as well.

normanoffside

normanoffside wrote: »

I see our cash is about to run out

https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/1358759244066127872

Reality bites. Economy needs to be opened up no later than April, it doesn't grow on trees and the bill is gargantuan. Wear a mask and socially distance in certain contexts? No problem. Let's get back to work & living our fullest lives because existence is finite and time is of the essence.

SheepsClothing

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Is that guy suggesting total suicide deaths per year in the US is circa 8000?

Seem to conflict with below

https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/suicide.shtml



It also doesn’t correlate with below

He's comparing like for like data from January to September in a representative sampling of states and counties where they have data. Full data for all states and counties for the whole year are not available yet, but all indications are that the rate has not increased. This is good news.

Windmill100000

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Cheers for posting that. Really backs up what I’ve been saying. The lady writing the piece hasn’t a great flair for understanding demographics though.

1 in 5 Swedes is over 65, they had a similar pro rata deaths rate of vulnerable as Ireland did.

I really liked the synopsis here

It's a very informative article, all of it, not just the bit you highlighted though.

Like this bit

"There is no doubt that within Scandinavia, Sweden has suffered more than the lion’s share of Covid-19, with more than 11,000 lives lost and the number of people infected running at over half a million.

In Finland and Norway where strict lockdown measures were enforced and borders closed off since early last year, the total numbers of deaths reported to date from Covid-19 are 655 and 550 respectively."

I suppose ultimately for many it comes down to what matters: more life and death, or the economy.

FintanMcluskey

normanoffside wrote: »

I see our cash is about to run out

https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/1358759244066127872

Uh oh!

Although we had warnings last September when we had the economy shut twice as long as Europe. In fact we continued to close the economy for long before and after Europe since.

Construction has really been hammered.

Hmob

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Reality bites. Economy needs to be opened up no later than April, it doesn't grow on trees and the bill is gargantuan. Wear a mask and socially distance in certain contexts? No problem. Let's get to back to work & living our fullest lives because existence is finite and time is of the essence.

They'll put us back to work alright but living and socializing like pre-covid is a long way off

It's looking like masks and SD for the foreseeable and no large gatherings either

ceadaoin.

SheepsClothing wrote: »

On the suicide front, good news out of the states:

https://twitter.com/tylerblack32/status/1357765466601775106

That's nonsense given that the data for suicide is incomplete. Not sure why that in particular is so slow to be correlated but its just not possible to say right now that there hasn't been an increase. Also, overdose deaths are way up in most states that have reported so far. Last year looks set to be an all time high number of drug related deaths.

Kunta Kinte

Hmob wrote: »

They'll put us back to work alright but living and socializing like pre-covid is a long way off

It's looking like masks and SD for the foreseeable and no large gatherings either

And quite rightly so.

Boggles

ceadaoin. wrote: »

That's nonsense given that the data for suicide is incomplete. Not sure why that in particular is so slow to be correlated but its just not possible to say right now that there hasn't been an increase. Also, overdose deaths are way up in most states that have reported so far. Last year looks set to be an all time high number of drug related deaths.

Nothing really out of the ordinary so?

j@utis

normanoffside wrote: »

I see our cash is about to run out

https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/1358759244066127872

OMG! The sooner - the better!!!

FintanMcluskey

Boggles wrote: »

Nothing really out of the ordinary so?

Can we not say the same about excess deaths due to Covid?

A growing population would expect to see more deaths each year?

SheepsClothing

ceadaoin. wrote: »

That's nonsense given that the data for suicide is incomplete. Not sure why that in particular is so slow to be correlated but its just not possible to say right now that there hasn't been an increase. Also, overdose deaths are way up in most states that have reported so far. Last year looks set to be an all time high number of drug related deaths.

Well I'm yet to see any data supporting the assertion that there's been the suicide epidemic that I've been hearing so much about, with the data we have from countries suggesting otherwise.

Overdose deaths have been rapidly rising since the nineties, so it wouldn't be in anyway out of step for them to have increased again this year.

OwenM

Boggles wrote: »

You have comparable data on all that?

Tap it up, I'll gladly take a look.

How about 600 cancers not detected, and that "It’s absolutely unrealistic to think that we are going to catch up":

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/breastcheck-screenings-fell-by-more-than-two-thirds-in-2020-1.4475095

Boggles

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Can we not say the same about excess deaths due to Covid?

A growing population would expect to see more deaths each year?

Nearly half a million?



I'm going to say no on that one Fintan.

FintanMcluskey

Windmill100000 wrote: »

I suppose ultimately for many it comes down to what matters: more life and death, or the economy.

Sooner or later, the penny will drop for many here, that those things are not mutually exclusive.

What sort of health service will this country provide when the exchequer haemorrhage’s its last funds in a few months time?

The irony is if you want to preserve life at all costs, you will eventually only afford a sub Saharan Africa type health service?

Boggles

OwenM wrote: »

How about 600 cancers not detected, and that "It’s absolutely unrealistic to think that we are going to catch up":

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/breastcheck-screenings-fell-by-more-than-two-thirds-in-2020-1.4475095

And the comparable for Sweden?

Hmob

OwenM wrote: »

How about 600 cancers not detected, and that "It’s absolutely unrealistic to think that we are going to catch up":

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/breastcheck-screenings-fell-by-more-than-two-thirds-in-2020-1.4475095

Deaths due to lockdown will likely exceed deaths due directly to covid imo

Windmill100000

Windmill100000 wrote: »

It's a very informative article, all of it, not just the bit you highlighted though.

Like this bit

"There is no doubt that within Scandinavia, Sweden has suffered more than the lion’s share of Covid-19, with more than 11,000 lives lost and the number of people infected running at over half a million.

In Finland and Norway where strict lockdown measures were enforced and borders closed off since early last year, the total numbers of deaths reported to date from Covid-19 are 655 and 550 respectively."

I suppose ultimately for many it comes down to what matters: more life and death, or the economy.

Sweden has a bigger population than those two countries - double. It's also far more urbanised, with a very big elderly population and they had a disaster with their care homes, as we did with all our hard lockdowns.

However if lockdowns truly worked, and the modelling we have is accurate, Sweden should be at 10 - 20 times the death toll of the worst nation in the world. It's nowhere near that, and far better than many hard lockdown countries. In fact there is NO CORRELATION between hard lockdowns and death rates.


We have destroyed our economy and have added a lot of excess deaths for years to come for nothing.

"Essentially, the right thing to do would be to not have done a lockdown for the whole country but to have, I think, anyone who's at risk should be quarantined until the storm passes," - Elon Musk. And he's correct.

SheepsClothing

OwenM wrote: »

How about 600 cancers not detected, and that "It’s absolutely unrealistic to think that we are going to catch up":

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/breastcheck-screenings-fell-by-more-than-two-thirds-in-2020-1.4475095

If we had imposed no restrictions for the last 11 months, do you think there would be more or less cancers detected? Please explain why you think this?

Hmob

Hmob wrote: »

Deaths due to lockdown will likely exceed deaths due directly to covid imo

I think it's very possible, but it will be hard to quantify. And since it will be hard to quantify, the true picture will likely not emerge until the current decision-makers are retired.

In any case I hope that people will be more cognisant of the fact that overall health is important and take on board lessons about nutrition, fitness, vitamin supplements and so on since that puts us in a more robust position for dealing with covid going forward and also for any future variants or (god forbid) pandemics that occur.

seamusk84

normanoffside wrote: »

I see our cash is about to run out

https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/1358759244066127872

Good to see Pascal and little Mickey making some proper noise about this now.

What I wouldn't give for non-essential retail and just even bloody outdoor dining on March 5th!

Problem is I still doubt MM will listen....Digging a massive hole for future generations here.

SheepsClothing

SheepsClothing wrote: »

If we had imposed no restrictions for the last 11 months, do you think there would be more or less cancers detected? Please explain why you think this?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/almost-150-000-fewer-people-attended-cancer-screening-services-in-first-half-of-year-1.4401585

Do you disagree with this article? Please explain why.

Hmob

Kunta Kinte wrote: »

And quite rightly so.

For the foreseeable unfortunately due to the threat of variants and inefficacy of vaccines

There's no way the UK will open up to packed stadiums after dosing everyone with AV

As far as lifting of restrictions like SD and Masks goes I'lll be looking to our european friends on the continent to fight for a return to normality

People here are sheep and the country is run by conservative clowns

PTH2009

Health will always come before the Economy

polesheep

SheepsClothing wrote: »

If we had imposed no restrictions for the last 11 months, do you think there would be more or less cancers detected? Please explain why you think this?

What we can say with certainty is, that if we had not stopped testing for cancer in favour of treating Covid, then we would have detected more cancers and as a consequence, saved the lives of people who will now die from cancer.